Game News Company of Heroes 2 gets Metacritic bombed by upset Russians

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

Poland had 950k vs 1500k Germans initially. And gave up after losing only 200k dead. Poland just had not the will and skill to fight, just like France (and unlike Russians and British)

Russians military doctrine was to run away retreat for hundreds of kilometers until winter saved them and then flood germans with cannon fodder and whatever they got from USA in Land Lease program. And we didn't had to motivate soldiers with political officers shooting them in the back.

France wasn't attacked by both Germans and Russians. And they collapsed anyway.

British had that little channel la manche.

 

[Space Satan]

As far as I remember, germans demanded from Poland some kind of corridor to access their enclave in case of war with russians...which poles declined. Ironically, soviets also demanded same kind of rights of passage in case of german war with France...which was also declined.
But that was pre-Munich, when allies toyed with various ideas about who will ally with whom and against who.

 

[Whisper]

They had ties with germany and were ready to strike as war started.

 

[baturinsky]

As far as I remember, germans demanded from Poland some kind of corridor to access their enclave in case of war with russians...which poles declined. Ironically, soviets also demanded same kind of rights of passage in case of german war with France...which was also declined.
But that was pre-Munich, when allies toyed with various ideas about who will ally with whom and against who.

AFAIK, Russia was willing to protect Czechs from Germany, but Poland denied passage. Can't find the source yet.

And, Hellraiser, thanks for answer, I'd brofist if I could. I honestly was caught off guard by a Pole, that can talk about WW2 without hysterics. Made me rethink some things, even. I'll answer, but I'll have to do some fact checking first.

 

[Hellraiser]

They had ties with germany and were ready to strike as war started.

Who did?

 

[Darth Roxor]

POLAND FIRST TO FIGHT 40:1 KURWA : x

 

[Whisper]

They had ties with germany and were ready to strike as war started.

Who did?

"Repressed" generals that Stalin took out of army.

They had connections with secret service of Germany, dont you think Hilter was only preparing his troops and was not working in other directions. He was planning attack on east for long time (read: Mein Kampf, pretty much he tells it himself).

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

This. To execute key military brains is retarded, power hungry moron Stalin did. That guy was way too power tripin'.

Bolsheviks were simply insane. We're talking about people who decided that the socialist world won't need intellectuals (for example scientists) so they should be mass murdered or starved to death.We're talking about people who killed or cast out factory owners without having anyone who could replace them in running factories. We're talking about people who starved common people to death so that they could sell the crops to the west and buy military technologies and machines for military production. We're talking about people who then started producing lots of horrible crap that would break down very fast.

 

[Whisper]

Mad bolsheviks with no plans, no knowledge of warfare, while killing each other just for lulz, also not equiped with any weapons, barehandedly, destroyed perfect oiled to max german war machine that easily crushed most of EU counties on its way to Russia.

Got it.

Oh wait, its cold weather did. Which strangely affect only good nazi guys from germany but not mad bolsheviks too. Who probably had cast "Immunity to cold" spells.

 

[Necroscope]

Can't believe nobody did this:


: x: x: x

 

[Hellraiser]

"Repressed" generals that Stalin took out of army.

They had connections with secret service of Germany, dont you think Hilter was only preparing his troops and was not working in other directions. He was planning attack on east for long time (read: Mein Kampf, pretty much he tells it himself).

Hitler's hate for communists was widely known, however the connections were forged by Reinhart Heydrich ironically enough due to "inspiration" from Stalin himself. Evidence from soviet archives opened up after 1990 suggests that the plot was made up by stalin, the information was "leaked" to the nazis on purpose so they would do all the dirty work for him (attempting to contact/work with the supposed conspirators). Heydrich forged Abwehr documents and passes them to the soviets to screw over Canaris and the Abwehr by undermining their supposed plot as he believed they were responsible (he was a dick). Stalin needed to consolidate his power in the military just like he did with the party by purging communists of different opinions, he simply needed a reason to dispose of the generals hence the plot.

If the conspiracy was true than why were all the victims of the purge in the military rehabilitated in 1957 by the soviet state? Furthermore why are there no documents confirming the existence and support of such a conspiracy and only documents forged by the SD rather than actual Abwehr documents? Indeed why would the Germans willingly pass on documents on nazi-sympathizers and their plot within the soviet military and thus undermine the whole conspiracy? Why wouldn't the fuhrer have Heydrich executed or at least imprisoned for such treason?

 

[Whisper]

They had ties with germany and were ready to strike as war started.

Even Lenin said, that Stalin isn't ideal statesman and Stalin's own people were afraid of him. Stalin gets a credit for dealing with Nazi threat. He produced so many dead people in his own nation, it is not even funny. I'm not talking duty death, just needless death of ordinary folk.

You forgot that:

1) He killed them personaly, each out of 100 millions he killed.
2) He killed just for Lulz.
3) All of them were innocent. Why would Germany try to recruite spies amoung soviet army leaders just before war. This is not logical for them to do.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Ah, good ol' Russian butthurt.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Can't believe nobody did this:


: x: x: x

What is this shit I cannot believe anyone

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Mad bolsheviks with no plans, no knowledge of warfare, while killing each other just for lulz, also not equiped with any weapons, barehandedly, destroyed perfect oiled to max german war machine that easily crushed most of EU counties on its way to Russia.

In Operation Barbarossa Germans inflicted 8 Russian casualties per every 1 German casualty and captured a huge territory despite that Russians had 5x more tanks and 8x more aircraft.

Oh wait, its cold weather did. Which strangely affect only good nazi guys from germany but not mad bolsheviks too. Who probably had cast "Immunity to cold" spells.

Cold weather didn't stop Germans. Germans stopped when roads got muddy and their supply lines stopped working which gave Russians time to recover and mobilize reservists. And Russians had less problems with winter because they had winter clothes and generally knew how to deal with Russian winter. The whole winter clothes debacle was just a symptom of a bigger problem with German logistics. The clothes were prepared for sending out to troops, but they simply couldn't be delivered because German logistics already failed at delivering basic necessities like fuel, ammo and food.

Also, "good nazi guys" ?

 

[Necroscope]

Russians had less problems with winter because they had winter clothes and generally knew how to deal with Russian winter.

To be precise, Germans had winter clothes, it's just that the winter was far more harsh than expected and forecasted.

A German soldier once said: In Stalingrad it was so cold even thoughts were freezing.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I'm just going to say that the plan to hold the Germans on the western bank of the Vistula (and other rivers), long enough for the French and possibly British to actually go on the offensive, and thus prevent the Germans from occupying all of Poland, was outright unrealistic. Even under ideal circumstances, that is with Czechoslovakia not in Nazi hands, there's no way in hell the French and British would make it to Berlin before the Polish army would be de facto crushed.

Why do they have to make it to Berlin? If the Allies really had a 5:1 superiority in the West (the sources say so), an attack would have forced Hitler to transfer at least 50% of his divisions from Poland to the West, if he doesn't want to risk losing the Ruhr area and several major cities in 14 days. Even if the French had only outdated equipment, some sources say they had a total superiority (80:1) in tanks and artillery (4:1), or in other words, the Germans in the West would have fared little better than Poland.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War

At the Nuremberg Trials, Alfred Jodl said that "if we did not collapse already in the year 1939 that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions."

General Siegfried Westphal stated ("World at War" - France Falls - Thames TV), that if the French had attacked in force in September 1939 the German army "could only have held out for one or two weeks".

I actually propose that every major German offensive: Poland, Norway, France and Soviet Union was a serious gamble.

It was practically not possible to bring the BEF to Germany in less than a few months, and France was not prepared for "attacking in force", but with hindsight they wasted a great opportunity, perhaps they could have even ended the war in 1939. What they did was hardly more than a maneuvre:

A French offensive in the Rhine river valley area (Saar Offensive) started on 7 September, four days after France declared war on Germany. Since the Wehrmacht was occupied in the attack on Poland, the French soldiers enjoyed a decisive numerical advantage along their border with Germany. However, the French took no meaningful action to assist the Poles. Eleven French divisions advanced along a 32 km (20 mi) line near Saarbrücken against weak German opposition. The attack did not result in the diversion of any German troops. The all-out assault was to have been carried out by roughly 40 divisions, including one armored, three mechanised divisions, 78 artillery regiments and 40 tank battalions. The French Army had advanced to a depth of 8 km (5.0 mi) and captured about 20 villages evacuated by the German army, without any resistance. However, the half-hearted offensive was halted after France seized the Warndt Forest, 3 sq mi (7.8 km2) of heavily-mined German territory.

On 12 September, the Anglo French Supreme War Council gathered for the first time at Abbeville. It was decided that all offensive actions were to be halted immediately as the French opted to fight a defensive war, forcing the Germans to come to them. By then, the French divisions had advanced approximately 8 km (5.0 mi) into Germany on a 24 km (15 mi)-long strip of the frontier in the Saarland area. General Maurice Gamelin, ordered his troops to stop no closer than 1 km (0.62 mi) from the German positions along the Siegfried Line. Poland was not notified of this decision. Instead, Gamelin informed Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły that 1/2 of his divisions were in contact with the enemy, and that French advances had forced the Wehrmacht to withdraw at least six divisions from Poland. The following day, the commander of the French Military Mission to Poland, General Louis Faury, informed the Polish Chief of Staff — General Wacław Stachiewicz — that the major offensive on the western front planned for 17–20 September had to be postponed. At the same time, French divisions were ordered to withdraw to their barracks along the Maginot Line.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Cold weather didn't stop Germans. Germans stopped when roads got muddy and their supply lines stopped working which gave Russians time to recover and mobilize reservists. And Russians had less problems with winter because they had winter clothes and generally knew how to deal with Russian winter. The whole winter clothes debacle was just a symptom of a bigger problem with German logistics. The clothes were prepared for sending out to troops, but they simply couldn't be delivered because German logistics already failed at delivering basic necessities like fuel, ammo and food.

The Wehrmacht was stopped before Moscow because they had had too many losses and hardly any working tanks left. In fact Generals had begged Hitler to go to defensive positions since November 41, and to continue the offensive was just a matter of time until the catastrophe happened.

 

[Darth Roxor]

But they didn't go back because they were too busy





Burning Bridges

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

To be precise, Germans had winter clothes, it's just that the winter was far more harsh than expected and forecasted.

A German soldier once said: In Stalingrad it was so cold even thoughts were freezing.

That's 1943. I'm talking about 1941.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Of course but the lack of winter clothes would not have been an issue if Hitler had halted the offensive in November, and waited until spring.

Meaning it gets pretty cold in Russia, but not live threatening with a fire and a shelter.

 

[Burning Bridges]

But they didn't go back because they were too busy





Burning Bridges

What is this, did you fall asleep while posting?

 

[Hellraiser]

Why do they have to make it to Berlin? If the Allies really had a 5:1 superiority in the West (the sources say so), an attack would have forced Hitler to transfer at least 50% of his divisions from Poland to the West, if he doesn't want to risk losing the Ruhr area and several major cities in 14 days. Even if the French had only outdated equipment, some sources say they had a total superiority (80:1) in tanks and artillery (4:1), or in other words, the Germans in the West would have fared little better than Poland.

That's a valid point, however even outnumbering the Germans by 2:1 or more on the polish front stopping the Wermacht would be extremely difficult. The facts are that while a German invasion was expected and planned for the Polish army was still woefully under-equipped. In 1936 the Polish army did an examination and comparison of its armament, for every infantry battalion there were 4 field guns (France and Germany had 8 or more per battalion), 0,3 of an AA gun (1,3 for germany and 3,8 for the soviets) and 1 tank (12,3 For France, 15,6 for Germany). Heavy and light MG numbers per battalion were half of those for Soviet infantry battalions. Of course the response was to modernize the army ASAP, a plan was laid out to upgrade everything by 1942. The problem was the budget was cut twice before 1939 and even then the plan was plain shit.

The problem with the Polish army was that, as the secret protocol detailing its military alliance with France required, it had to maintain a large standing army with 2 years of mandatory military service for adult males. 80% of the military budget went into keeping those numbers. The air force was a joke (pilot training was quite good though), the plans called for focusing on bombers rather than fighters I kid you not. The best fighters we would have had would be the token test bunch of Hawkers Hurricanes that were supposed to make it to Poland by September 1939 through Romania. However those were of course sent back to Britain as soon as shit begun hitting the fan. We didn't have actual armor divisions, the plan called for the creation of a few tank-motorized division which would still be filled with absolutely shitty tanks. There was also a crippling shortage of long range artillery.

Nearly all the logistics relied on horses, the amount of trucks that could be mobilized was pathetic. Motorization was nearly nonexistent, strategic mobility was a joke. Strategic level communications were done via telephone landlines, radios were only used on a tactical level thus ensuring chaos after landlines were destroyed by airstrikes or by other means, especially in a sluggish infantry-based unmotorized army facing the Blitzkrieg. There was simply no way to mount a successful defense and thus preventing the Wermacht from taking the entire country. We could at best delay it until late October even with France on the offensive. Could the French topple the Fuhrer before that? Possibly, but I wouldn't bet my money on it.

 

[baturinsky]

Everyone was lagging behind the Germans in military doctrine (lol at Russian skill considering their performance in the winter war in particular). It took them time to adapt (not to mention arm themselves properly). The Soviets didn't bite it because they moved their industry into Siberia way out of German reach thus greatly extending their capability to fight a conventional symmetrical conflict, otherwise even with Lend and Lease they would fall. Hell the soviet example in particular shows how important industry was, soviet troops while not complete cannon fodder dying like flies were mostly inexperienced conscripts, often peasants. Soviet military leadership was recovering from the great purge, a massive handicap as far as manpower is concerned.

Yes, you are right about industry in Siberia and Land Lease, etc. And people mentioning The Russian Winter are right too. So, let's remove this out of equation. Take the very beginning of the war - summer and autumn of 1941. In this period, Soviets lost a lot of people dead and captured, but managed to kill hundreds of thousands of Axis. It's impossible to say exact kill/lost ratio, because every source gives different numbers, but no matter how you count, it gives several times better than how Poland or France did. One thing is certain - it was way more than German expected, and enough to make reaching Moscow before winter impossible.

But if we believe this game and similar "historical truth" bullshit like this, Russians had incompetent commanders (because all competent ones were killed by NKVD), favorite tactics were either attacking machine guns with a human wave, armed with sharpened sticks, or running away in panic, burning villages along the way. And when Russians happened to have some firearms, they used it mostly to kill each other. Naturally one starts to wonder, how did French and Polish fought, if they managed to do even worse than that?

 

[Burning Bridges]

That's a valid point, however even outnumbering the Germans by 2:1 or more on the polish front stopping the Wermacht would be extremely difficult.

Bro. In contrary to your potato collegues who are jerking off to that 40:1 stuff (or is it a joke at Polands expense?), you may be swinging a little too much in the opposite direction. I think if the Polish army was inferior to the Wehrmacht, it certainly was not incompetent. Poland had airplanes, tanks, artillery and everything a modern army needed, most of it was just too little and too inferior to the German. They had some very good units, and while I know next to nothing about their leadership, they certainly had very capable officers in their ranks.

It should have been able to stop or seriously delay the Germans if outnumbering them 2:1, especially if Germany was attacked on a second front, don't you think? That Poland had no chance against Wehrmacht on it's own is hardly surprising, especially when it was simultaneously attacked by the Red Army from the back. Strategically the situation was completely hopeless for a small country to fight against Germany and the USSR at the same time.

The problem with the Polish army was that, as the secret protocol detailing its military alliance with France required, it had to maintain a large standing army with 2 years of mandatory military service for adult males. 80% of the military budget went into keeping those numbers. The air force was a joke (pilot training was quite good though), the plans called for focusing on bombers rather than fighters I kid you not. The best fighters we would have had would be the token test bunch of Hawkers Hurricanes that were supposed to make it to Poland by September 1939 through Romania. However those were of course sent back to Britain as soon as shit begun hitting the fan. We didn't have actual armor divisions, the plan called for the creation of a few tank-motorized division which would still be filled with absolutely shitty tanks. There was also a crippling shortage of long range artillery.

Hm sounds like they made many mistakes before the war, just like the French. Wasn't it Churchill who said "This battle has been lost long before"?

Nearly all the logistics relied on horses, the amount of trucks that could be mobilized was pathetic. Motorization was nearly nonexistent, strategic mobility was a joke. Strategic level communications were done via telephone landlines, radios were only used on a tactical level thus ensuring chaos after landlines were destroyed by airstrikes or by other means, especially in a sluggish infantry-based unmotorized army facing the Blitzkrieg. There was simply no way to mount a successful defense and thus preventing the Wermacht from taking the entire country. We could at best delay it until late October even with France on the offensive. Could the French topple the Fuhrer before that? Possibly, but I wouldn't bet my money on it.

Afaik reliance of horses was the case with most of the Wehrmacht as well. They had some motorized divisions, the rest was using horses. But anyway, I was just saying that with help from France Poland could have had a chance, without it, it had none at all.