Game News Company of Heroes 2 gets Metacritic bombed by upset Russians

[Hamster]

7,000 tanks sounds awfully much, but how many did Russia produce herself? Am I crazy when I guess it could be like 50,000 or more?

95,252 tanks and self-propelled artillery and 157,261 airplanes.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Wow thanks, this puts Lend&Lease in a different light doesn't it?

 

[BelisariuS.F]

7,000 tanks sounds awfully much, but how many did Russia produce herself? Am I crazy when I guess it could be like 50,000 or more?

"Soviet Planning in Peace and War, 1938-1945" says that in 1942-43 USSR had initially 6014 tanks, produced 15708 and received 2413 from abroad. It also lost 12142 tanks, which leaves 11993 of surplus.

 

[Hellraiser]

7,000 tanks sounds awfully much, but how many did Russia produce herself? Am I crazy when I guess it could be like 50,000 or more? Also if Airacobras, P-40 etc would have been of major importance, would they have given them to Ersatz formations, like women squadrons?

The military hardware contributions as I said weren't the important bit. Indeed tanks and planes you can't easily get spare parts for (or a manual written in Cyrillic) weren't all that practical, same goes for training men to use them. Hence they were mostly deployed in units away from the main line of combat or Ersatz formations and as I said weren't the reason why Lend-Lease was a major factor. Non-combat matériel contributions on the other hand were that reason, again from the wiki:

The USSR was highly dependent on rail transportation, but the war practically shut down rail equipment production: only about 92 locomotives were produced. 2,000 locomotives and 11,000 railcars were supplied under Lend-Lease. Likewise, the Soviet air force received 18,700 aircraft, which amounted to about 14% of Soviet aircraft production (19% for military aircraft).[17]

Although most Red Army tank units were equipped with Soviet-built tanks, their logistical support was provided by hundreds of thousands of U.S.-made trucks. Indeed by 1945 nearly two-thirds of the truck strength of the Red Army was U.S.-built. Trucks such as the Dodge 3/4 ton and Studebaker 2½ ton, were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminium, canned rations, and clothing were also critical.[18]

Logistics enabling the Red Army to fight effectively and eventually go on the counter-offensive were highly dependent on kwan contributions.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

7,000 tanks sounds awfully much, but how many did Russia produce herself? Am I crazy when I guess it could be like 50,000 or more? Also if Airacobras, P-40 etc would have been of major importance, would they have given them to Ersatz formations, like women squadrons?

If I remember things correctly, by 1943 the Russians were producing 1300 T-34/76 a month, then they shifted to T-34/85 which slowed down the whole production line for a bit. They defiantly had the steel to toss at the Germans.

 

[made]

Good question. I believe Stalin was willing to negotiate well into 1942. But he must have known that the Wehrmacht lost the war after her comeback had ground to a halt at Stalingrad, very late '42.

The ideal point to negotiate would have been Nov. 1941 when Germany was at the gates of Moscow. Stalin was terrified, and I am sure he would have made huge concessions. But then of course it looked like Germany had already won, and only some clairvoyants in Germany realized the real seriousness of the situation. I also believe that Shukov already saw things much more optimistic, if only he was given a free hand in strategic matters. Which Stalin was wise enough to do.

Concerning how long the peace would have lasted, I think no one can know. But as long as Germany had the best army in the world, no one would have taken an invasion or attack against her lightly. Neither USSR nor GB was in a position to attack Germany before Stalingrad.

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Well, it made an impression on me.

I'll let the old man know next time I see him. He'll be happy to hear that.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Sorry, but nope.

You cannot just gloss over the issue of POWS.

Taking the number of total casualties per nation like I did is not the right way that's correct.

The number of POWs count as military losses but the number that died in captivity does not say anything, either, because they are in no relation to the combat. I believe the estimations are like over 400,000 for Germany, and over 3,000,000 for USSR. Meaning the treatment of German POWs by the USSR was actually much better than that of Russian POWs by Germany.

I think there will never be precise figures of KIAs/MIAs, POWs, and WIAs for the Eastern front. But in a military point of view these were all real losses.

Just look at the

casualties tables on wiki page for eastern front - massacres of pows

play a huge part in swaying kill ratio into german favour, the killed

millions.

I made this table for combat losses (no pows included) a few years ago

during similiar discussion on codex, unfortunately i don't remember the

source, but you can see that total numbers are generally consistent

with mainstream estimates provided on eastern front wiki page:

USSR vs Axis

1941:

802,191 vs 307,553 = 2,61 : 1

1942:

1,742,955 vs 537,922 = 3,24 : 1

1943:

1,944,653 vs 792,764 = 2,45 : 1

1944:

1,596,328 vs 1,507,623 = 1,05 : 1

1945:

732,108 vs 1,230,045 = 1 : 1,68

Total: 6818235 vs 4375907 = 1,56 : 1

Your figures sound absolutely realistic to me.

I would only add that a closer look at 1944 could be interesting. It is often claimed that Germany lost more people from mid '44 onwards then in the whole 4 years before.

So there could be a point in '44 where axis losses flip-flopped.

But taken as totals your ratios for '44 and '45 absolutely make sense. Although there are many claims that even Hitler Youth could take out many tanks and soldiers, and that Berlin could have been taken at much lower cost if Stalin had not wanted to be there first, but axis forces make a pretty beaten impression after mid '44, and with a few exceptions, they had lost whatever quality they ever had.

 

[evdk]

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Hitler didn't struck when nobody expected him to, just where nobody. Nobody of importance really believed that Munich Agreement would appease the Führer, they just didn't think that tanks could make way through heavily forested areas and ignore the Maginot line.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Well, it made an impression on me.

I'll let the old man know next time I see him. He'll be happy to hear that.

Yes, you can tell him it is a great story, and is confirmed by everything I learned about the war in 20+ years. That Russian must have been very clever, too!

7,000 tanks sounds awfully much, but how many did Russia produce herself? Am I crazy when I guess it could be like 50,000 or more? Also if Airacobras, P-40 etc would have been of major importance, would they have given them to Ersatz formations, like women squadrons?

If I remember things correctly, by 1943 the Russians were producing 1300 T-34/76 a month, then they shifted to T-34/85 which slowed down the whole production line for a bit. They defiantly had the steel to toss at the Germans.

It's hardly in question anymore, that the German industry was way behind events, producing parts that could have lasted for twenty years, in tanks that were knocked out in 48 hours, etc.

There is a very enlightening chapter in "The Most Dangerous Enemy", that the German aircraft industry was already grossly mismanaged as early as 1940, compared to the British.

 

[Hamster]

The number of POWs count as military losses but the number that died in captivity does not say anything, either, because they are in no relation to the combat. I believe the estimations are like over 400,000 for Germany, and over 3,000,000 for USSR. Meaning the treatment of German POWs by the USSR was actually much better than that of Russian POWs by Germany.

Thats why people are so pissed about the scene in CoH2 where soviets are shooting german POWS. It's not because such things never happened, it's because it creates an absolutely false impression about difference in treatment of POWS by two sides.

 

[Burning Bridges]

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Yes it's all speculation. The only thing that I'm certain is that the Wehrmacht was the most powerful army in the world in 1940, 1941 and well into 1942. In the long run Hitler was at a disadvantage, which even he knew. Churchill understood it best, and Stalin most likely, understood it too, although he seems to have wavered at some point. But as long as Hitler had the Wehrmacht intact and undefeated, it would have been very hard to challenge his position. And with the vast territory under her control, Germany also could have become even stronger over the years.

Hitler was a miltary amateur but had the instincts of a gambler. If his surprise attack on Russia had succeeded, he would have appeared as the greatest military genius of the time, but he took too long chances in the long run. From that point on he should have stopped meddling in military affairs, but he was becoming more and more separated from reality and the result is known.

 

[made]

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Hitler didn't struck when nobody expected him to, just where nobody. Nobody of importance really believed that Munich Agreement would appease the Führer, they just didn't think that tanks could make way through heavily forested areas and ignore the Maginot line.

They hoped it would appease him for a tad bit longer until the Battlestar was fully operational. War was inevitable, everybody knew.

 

[evdk]

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Hitler didn't struck when nobody expected him to, just where nobody. Nobody of importance really believed that Munich Agreement would appease the Führer, they just didn't think that tanks could make way through heavily forested areas and ignore the Maginot line.

They hoped it would appease him for a tad bit longer until the Battlestar was fully operational. War was inevitable, everybody knew.

Yeah, giving Hitler Czechoslovakia's industrial production would sure appease him.

 

[Whisky]

Wow, pretty interesting discussion going on here. Gotta admit, as soon as I saw Whisper post, I expected this thread to turn into a Politics Board enclave. to all.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I would really like to hear someone who knows Russian geography. But if you think that Wrangrel and Denikin could jeep the Bolshies busy with only Siberia and the Donets area, I think Hitler was still far from controlling most of Russia.

The Whites also had western material and military support. The west was shipping both weapons and supplies to them and had boots on the ground in Russia. Too bad they weren't able to use them effectively. IIRC a lot of it ended up stolen or was left to rot in warehouses.

Sorry, but nope. You cannot just gloss over the issue of POWS.

Just look at the casualties tables on wiki page for eastern front - massacres of pows play a huge part in swaying kill ratio into german favour, they killed millions.

I made this table for combat losses (no pows included) a few years ago during similiar discussion on codex, unfortunately i don't remember the source, but you can see that total numbers are generally consistent with mainstream estimates provided on eastern front wiki page:

USSR vs Axis

1941:
802,191 vs 307,553 = 2,61 : 1

POWs still became POWs due to enemy actions, so they should count as casualties anyway.

 

[made]

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Hitler didn't struck when nobody expected him to, just where nobody. Nobody of importance really believed that Munich Agreement would appease the Führer, they just didn't think that tanks could make way through heavily forested areas and ignore the Maginot line.

They hoped it would appease him for a tad bit longer until the Battlestar was fully operational. War was inevitable, everybody knew.

Yeah, giving Hitler Czechoslovakia's industrial production would sure appease him.

What other choice was there at the time?

 

[evdk]

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Hitler didn't struck when nobody expected him to, just where nobody. Nobody of importance really believed that Munich Agreement would appease the Führer, they just didn't think that tanks could make way through heavily forested areas and ignore the Maginot line.

They hoped it would appease him for a tad bit longer until the Battlestar was fully operational. War was inevitable, everybody knew.

Yeah, giving Hitler Czechoslovakia's industrial production would sure appease him.

What other choice was there at the time?

Well, I am biased, but I'd say try and seize the initiative and kick the Führer in the balls. By 1938 he still didn't have the well oiled war machine ready.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Thats why people are so pissed about the scene in CoH2 where soviets are shooting germans POWS. It's not because such things never happened, it's because it creates an absolutely false impression about difference in treatment of POWS by two sides.

Does it show German war crimes?

By the way, about a year ago I was reading memoirs of a German soldier who died in Russia. It has shown ordinary German soldiers robbing civilians of food and casting them out from their homes to freezing cold to survive, being drunk whenever it was possible and running away from combat a lot. Since the author has died, it's unpolished and doesn't have the usual self-glorification bullshit. Also, apparently the author didn't particularly like Nazis and wanted to write the truth about war.
It's this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-Myself-Inhumanity-Russia-1941-1944/dp/B000INB00S/

Apparently some other dude from the same regiment also wrote memoirs after war and obviously it was about gallant German knights who weren't Nazis and were ultra-brave and self-sacrificing.

 

[made]

While certain "what if" scenarios are fun to toss around in the head, I am convinced that the 3rd Reich was already doomed well before the war had started. The initial military victories, while impressive, relied heavily on the element of surprise. Hitler struck while nobody expected him to, but it was only a matter of time until the tides would turn. Too weak were his allies, too thin spread his forces. To win is one thing, to win and hold another entirely. Could Stalin have sued for peace? Maybe. But only until he felt strong enough to reclaim what was his and then some.

Hitler didn't struck when nobody expected him to, just where nobody. Nobody of importance really believed that Munich Agreement would appease the Führer, they just didn't think that tanks could make way through heavily forested areas and ignore the Maginot line.

They hoped it would appease him for a tad bit longer until the Battlestar was fully operational. War was inevitable, everybody knew.

Yeah, giving Hitler Czechoslovakia's industrial production would sure appease him.

What other choice was there at the time?

Well, I am biased, but I'd say try and seize the initiative and kick the Führer in the balls. By 1938 he still didn't have the well oiled war machine ready.

Neither did the UK or France. As I said, I believe war was inevitable in the minds of those in charge, they just needed time to prepare - both militarily and politically. Not to mention that a good chunk of your ancestors was actually eager to return "heim ins Reich" so the situation wasn't as clear-cut as, say, when they discovered Saddam's hoard of WMDs which warranted immediate invasion, eh?

 

[Burning Bridges]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

Appeasement in a political context, is a diplomatic policy of making political or material concessions to a dictatorial power (or powers) in order to avoid a threatened conflict. Appeasement was used by European democracies in the 1930s who wished to avoid war with the dictatorships of Germany and Italy, bearing in mind the horrors of World War I.

You cannot blaim good old Neville for what he had in mind, but unfortunately he had completely misjudged the man, and the times.

 

[evdk]

Neither did the UK or France. As I said, I believe war was inevitable in the minds of those in charge, they just needed time to prepare - both militarily and politically. Not to mention that a good chunk of your ancestors was actually eager to return "heim ins Reich" so the situation wasn't as clear-cut as, say, when they discovered Saddam's hoard of WMDs which warranted immediate invasion, eh?

The German situation in Czechoslovakia was a lot muddier than that - most of the nationalism was a fifth column work on orders from Berlin.

You cannot blame good old Neville for what he had in mind, but unfortunately he had completely misjudged the man, and the times.

You can, when you are the nation he threw under the bus. The fact that it had absolutely no chance of ever working just adds insult to injury.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Ok, easy to forget. Interestingly it also pre-empted a potential coup-d-etat by German officers which would only have worked if France and Britain stood firm to defend Czechoslovakia.

 

[Drakron]

It also lead to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

 

[baturinsky]

As I understand it, name of the game was to get into the fight as late as possible, so those who started earlier worn each other out, and you can occupy ("liberate") both sides. US did that erventually, but I totally see Russia, or UK, or even France doing it, if things went a little different.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Yeah, because god forbid we show anything that does not fit the patriotic bullshit that gets peddled as history in Russia. Rapes? What rapes?

While we are at it, maybe also show American soldiers in raping german (or french) women, American soldiers running away from enemy, or attacking enemy while being not prepared fully for attack.

I bet at least for some Americans it happened in history.

I wonder why we never see this events in games with American PoV.

Those things happen in any conflict but America has never, in its entire history, had anything like Order 227.

From 1942 to 1945, 427,910 soldiers were assigned to penal battalions.[2]

Intended to galvanise the morale of the hard-pressed Soviet Army and emphasise patriotism, it had a generally detrimental effect and was not consistently implemented by commanders who viewed diverting troops to create barrier units as a waste of manpower, so by October 1942 the idea of regular blocking units was quietly dropped.[3] By 20 November 1944 the blocking units were officially disbanded.[2]​

Actually I'm not certain if America has ever had "barrier troops" because it's an "old-world" concept, often used around the time of Napoleon (and dating back to the Roman Legion) - not so much in the modern era. Now there may have been instances where deserters were shot - but I can't find a case where the President of the United States of America issued an Order to form entire battalions of penal units. The best I can find is The Dirty Dozen - and even that's fictional. The best is probably the Galvanized Yankees, who totaled "5,600 former Confederate soldiers" and they weren't used in the frontlines: "Due to doubts about their ultimate loyalty, galvanized Yankees in federal service were generally assigned to garrison forts far from the Civil War battlefields or in action against Indians in the west.".

Now if America had been invaded during WWII, sure, maybe things might've been different. But then you have the Gulags. About the closest thing America had were POW camps - but they were nowhere near the scale of Russia where "Petty crimes and jokes about the Soviet government and officials were punishable by imprisonment."

It's the things you do that stand out from the crowd that define you. In Russia's case, their history is one of a very brutal, oppressive regime. America's is one of fighting for independence, founding a modern Democracy, wars over slaves and getting involved in everyone elses wars.

If people are free to depict any race as they want in any light - why we dont see movies or games bashing.. i mean depicting in non-morally superior force of Amerikva, champ?

Usually the moral high ground comes from America's role in the world post WWII. Just look at the expectation that America would get involved in conflicts like Rwanda, Kosovo, Libya.

And for example, when countries want to overthrow their repressive, militaristic regimes and install a democracy, do turn to Russia for help - or America?

I have good idea, make game how your mother is being raped by some niggers - its just a game, right? It "could have happened" if not than "it could happen in future". Since nothing stops from making any game, lets play this game. What, champ, dont like it?

You mean like all those horror movies and serial killer flicks America pumps out every year, where women are raped, stabbed, killed and what-not?