Confirmation that Aurora is inferior to IE

[Volourn]

"because PST wasn't heavy on the combat"

L0L That funny.

 

[Mareus]

Maybe its just the combat system of AD&D that I don't like. I didn't like being only able to use magic spells once, I didn't like the vast swarms of enemies, and I didn't like the extremely fast way your companions tended to die. I think the turn-based system in Fallout was much more interesting, because although your companions could die, it took a lot more to finish them off than just the one or two blows common in the IE games.

What do you mean one or two blows to die? If that happened to you, it was not the fault of the engine, but of the DnD rules and the way you played. This thread is not about rules it's about the engine. Also with good strategy aproach you can play the game without loading at all. And you can implement a lot more strategy into IE than Aurora, because you will not be busy fighting the clunky 3D camera.

 

[Ratty]

D&D epic adventure with solid writing, story, characters, and quests

Except camera controls, and world interaction controls are the best ever in any game.

1. I take it you haven't played many games?

2. Mere fact that a game like NWN needs to have camera controls is a pretty serious design flaw.

It's also very adaptable.

While that may be true, there really isn't much empirical evidence to support that claim, as it's pretty easy to identify tell-tale signs of Aurora engine in games that use it. Small and constrictive areas, 2D walkmesh in a faux 3D world, unsophisticated collision detection, memory leaks, performance and stability issues, loading times... these traits are common to all Aurora games and they all contribute to the unmistakeable "Aurora feel". Compare this to an engine like GameBryo, which has been used in titles as diverse as Oblivion, Sid Meier's Pirates!, Impossible Creatures and many others and Aurora's feeble pedigree when it comes to adaptability becomes plainly obvious.

Plus, the combat was a hundred times better in NWN2 than it was in any of the IE games.

Hundred times zero is still zero.

"because PST wasn't heavy on the combat"

L0L That funny.

Yes. And true.

As for the Witcher, I agree that it's greatly overrated, especially in its present state. It's likely due to severe shortage of proper CRPGs over these last five years that people are willing to overlook glaring flaws such as poor performance, underwhelming writing (further exacerbated by the incomplete English translation), primitive combat system and overly simplified character system that affects only combat performance. Yes, the Witcher is the best mainstream CRPG in recent memory, much like the last soldier standing is the supreme commander of his troops. However, until Enhanced Edition comes out and hopefully alleviates some of the aforementioned flaws, I will stand by my opinion that the Witcher is merely an above average game that can't in any way hold the candle to true classics of the CRPG genre.

 

[Volourn]

"2. Mere fact that a game like NWN needs to have camera controls is a pretty serious design flaw."

Huh? WUT? Controls so the player can manipulate the camera so they cna view the action the way they want IS A GOOD THING.


"1. I take it you haven't played many games?"

K.


"While that may be true, there really isn't much empirical evidence to support that claim"

Sure, there is. The differences between The Witcher, and MOTB versions is evidence of this. The fact, that people claimed that Aurora couldn't do PC controlled party members yet NWN2 has this says everything. Same with world maps, variant death rules, and all the hugely different things people can do. Just check out the wide variety 9admittedly many suck or unfinished) mods out there all of which can approach the engine in different ways.

*shrug*


"Yes. And true."

No. PST has LOTS of combat. It's a mythical myth to suggest otherwise.

 

[Mareus]

No one said PST doesn't have it's share of combat, but Volly, I think even you would agree that out of all the games mentioned in this thread PST is the least combat oriented game.

 

[Volourn]

Nope.

 

[Texas Red]

*WITCHER SPOILERS*

As for the Witcher, I agree that it's greatly overrated, especially in its present state. It's likely due to severe shortage of proper CRPGs over these last five years that people are willing to overlook glaring flaws such as poor performance, underwhelming writing (further exacerbated by the incomplete English translation), primitive combat system and overly simplified character system that affects only combat performance. Yes, the Witcher is the best mainstream CRPG in recent memory, much like the last soldier standing is the supreme commander of his troops. However, until Enhanced Edition comes out and hopefully alleviates some of the aforementioned flaws, I will stand by my opinion that the Witcher is merely an above average game that can't in any way hold the candle to true classics of the CRPG genre.

How exactly is it worse than true classics? Take for example the story, it consists of several plots, all wrapped around mysteries keeping the gamer playing:

1. What happened to Geralt? Why is his memory missing and how come he has risen from death?

2. What does the ending movie signify? Is Geralt a clone, is there another witcher school? Why was there an attempt on the king's life?

3. What is the deal with Alvin? Is he the chosan oan or simply a madman? Are his visions true or hallucinations?

4. What will happen to humanity now that the supposed savior is dead? Did Geralt in his attempts of preventing crime doomed mankind?

5. Who is the Professor? What are his motives? Why is he working with a powerful mage who was able to defeat one of the most famous sorceresses in the realm?

6. Who are the Salamandra? Why did they steal the witcher's secrets? Why are they experimenting with mutations?

7. Is Alvin the grandmaster? How could he have existed in several places and times at once?

etc. etc. There are many questions and many answers. Unlike most games, TW doesn't reveal everything and, like PS:T, leaves room for speculation. Unlike PS:T, we will probably get a sequel that will satisfy our curiosity. Then there are of course Geralt's friends, love interests, political intrigue, religion, racial wars and so on. Compare all these questions with, say, FO. There are a lot less mysteries and most of them more petty, your character doesn't have a personal story and nor are there any real characters who evolve with you through the entire game. You don't feel a personal attachment to such colorful personalities as Dandelion, Shani or Alvin who are not just passing, static characters on some level standing around, but actually move with you and take part of the general story.

TW is one of the most masterfully written games. The cut dialogs, which will be fixed, don't prevent the player from being engrossed. To say that the game had poor writing just shows that you didn't care to dwell deep enough, or plain ignorance and rose-colored glasses for your classics.

 

[Volourn]

"TW is one of the most masterfully written games."

L0L


"To say that the game had poor writing just shows that you didn't care to dwell deep enough"

Not my fault that the game was so shallow, and boring that i fell asleep.

 

[RainSong]

No you didn't.

 

[Volourn]

No; but I wish I had. I could have dreamed of playing a better game like PST or FO.

R00fles!

 

[MetalCraze]

TWD, The Witcher indeed has too many problems.
I actually agree with Ratty. And the writing of TW has enough flows. Especially that Alvin guy you wank at. He is one of the biggest storyline flows of the game. Teaching Alvin like you want, even having a goddamn quest for that - but in the end understanding that your choices and that quest meant nothing. Oh yeah good design.
+ that retarded amnesia which is one of the most overused things in games with storyline.
TW is a good ARPG, but in no way it's that great.
And even for a ARPG it had a ridiculously retarded combat. Basically all combat of TW can be characterised as:
1. Click when the sword is shining. Don't click when it's not.
2. Use "force push" when fighting against humans
3. Use fire spells when fighting against everyone else.
4. Repeat for 20-30 hrs.

 

[Darth Roxor]

an RPG with so many choices and such a complicated storyline is hardly an ARPG.

- 'retarded amnesia'
Give me at least three good examples how you can strip a hero of all his powers, for the purpose of the game. Now.

- 'your choices concerning Alvin meant nothing'
No. Actually in the end the consequences of the choices all become apparent. It's just that they are said, not showed, and that seems to be bugging many people.
And really, now think, are the choices concerning Alvin *that* important? Don't you think that Alvin was just a 'vessel' used by the Grandmaster to 'research' Geralt? Really, the whole deal with Alvin is shrouded in such a mystery it's hard to think of all the possible explanations.

 

[Volourn]

"an RPG with so many choices and such a complicated storyline is hardly an ARPG."

Wrong. It could have the best role-playing ever and still be an ARPG. you have the mistaken impression that ARPG = crap, and RPG = good. Those aren't the defintions sorry. TW is a ARPG no matter how good you think the story and role-playing is because the combat is real time and is based largely on player skill. Period. Just like ME, JE, and BL. Quality is irrelevant.



"- 'retarded amnesia'
Give me at least three good examples how you can strip a hero of all his powers, for the purpose of the game. Now."

You shouldn't do amensia AT ALL simply based on character stats. It should be only used for story if youa re gonna use it at all ala PST or KOTOR.

TW creators wer edumb because THEY chose to make TW using Geralt knowing he was powerful. If they couldn't handle that, they shouldn't have done it. They could have had the player play a different witcher. Or they could have made him powerful as he should be from the start and balance the game with that in mind.

 

[JarlFrank]

- 'your choices concerning Alvin meant nothing'
No. Actually in the end the consequences of the choices all become apparent. It's just that they are said, not showed, and that seems to be bugging many people.
And really, now think, are the choices concerning Alvin *that* important? Don't you think that Alvin was just a 'vessel' used by the Grandmaster to 'research' Geralt? Really, the whole deal with Alvin is shrouded in such a mystery it's hard to think of all the possible explanations.

Basically, the choices you made were reflected in the final dialogue with the GM, and thus it gave a hint on who the GM really is. So, basically, your choices didn't change anything in the gameplay or story, but they could help you in figuring out one of the game's mysteries, which is awesome. Like, you get hints on who the big bad GM really is... and those hints depend on your choices in the game! That's what I call a good way to give the player a solution to a mystery.

 

[Darth Roxor]

TW creators wer edumb because THEY chose to make TW using Geralt knowing he was powerful. If they couldn't handle that, they shouldn't have done it. They could have had the player play a different witcher. Or they could have made him powerful as he should be from the start and balance the game with that in mind.

No, they couldn't have implemented a different Witcher, because Geralt is a special figurine among the Witchers themselves and in the world, as far as I know.
Make him powerful as he should be from the start and then balance? Now THIS is a dumb idea, because given how skilled he is pre-amnesia, they'd have to implement only superdemons and ubermonsters throughout the whole game, because everything else would simply not be a challenge.


gah, failed my saves vs Volly again.

 

[MetalCraze]

Give me at least three good examples how you can strip a hero of all his powers, for the purpose of the game. Now.

So I take it the amnesia is the only way to do this? Especially a retarded one?
"Oh I just forgot everything but I remember all of you"

Exile in KotOR2 is one good example of how you can strip the hero from his powers.
There are many ways to do that - in the world of magic? a curse f.e. And it could've been such a good -subplot- in TW if done right - fighting the curse and the one who cursed.
But the best example will be - ...hey why to strip the hero from his powers? It's overused as well. Simply don't give that much attention to why Geralt is so weak at first. Because it is better than making a ridiculous excuse.

an RPG with so many choices and such a complicated storyline is hardly an ARPG.

oh so VtmB is a RPG now too? Great.
The combat of TW is twitchy, most of the quests are about killing someone or something. It's perfectly a arpg in my book.

No. Actually in the end the consequences of the choices all become apparent. It's just that they are said, not showed, and that seems to be bugging many people.
And really, now think, are the choices concerning Alvin *that* important? Don't you think that Alvin was just a 'vessel' used by the Grandmaster to 'research' Geralt? Really, the whole deal with Alvin is shrouded in such a mystery it's hard to think of all the possible explanations.

Uhm... Grandmaster IS Alvin.
CD Projekt could've made so many endings based on how you influenced him but they decided to lose that potential by simply going the only way of making Alvin a racist psycho and even not letting you to finish that quest. It's just like at some point they decided "oh fuck this shit! That will take soo much time and effort. Let's just do it one way. And I'm sure nobody will notice or care"

 

[RainSong]

CD Projekt could've made so many endings based on how you influenced him but they decided to lose that potential by simply going the only way of making Alvin a racist psycho

Epic Fail.

 

[theverybigslayer]

"oh fuck this shit!"

This is exactly what I think about the story of the Witchers after reading Dark Invidual's 7 points.
R00fles!
Anyway Volourn is right again.

 

[RainSong]

I think

Try again.

 

[Volourn]

"No, they couldn't have implemented a different Witcher, because Geralt is a special figurine among the Witchers themselves and in the world, as far as I know."

That doesn't make fuckin' make sense. They used Geralt because he's the main character from the books. The game is called 'The Witcher' so they could have had a story based around any Witcher. It'll be like BIO using Drrizzt in any of their D&D games simply ebcause he's popualr, and giving him 'amnesia' to explain why he's stuck being level 1. L0L


"Make him powerful as he should be from the start and then balance? Now THIS is a dumb idea, because given how skilled he is pre-amnesia, they'd have to implement only superdemons and ubermonsters throughout the whole game, because everything else would simply not be a challenge."


No, it's dumb tod o the cop out because you don't knbow how to make a game so you force the PC to be Geralt mainly becuas ehe's popuialr and well known then nerf him by the dumbest way possible. If they couldn't balance the game properly with Geralt they shouldn't have used him as a PC. Heck, they could have him as a NPC.

Dumbasses.

 

[JarlFrank]

That doesn't make fuckin' make sense.

Aah yes, the wonders of Volournian grammar. At least *try* to avoid blatantly obvious spelling and grammar mistakes, and your arguments would be a tad more believable. This way it's just silly.

 

[Darth Roxor]

So I take it the amnesia is the only way to do this? Especially a retarded one?
"Oh I just forgot everything but I remember all of you"

He doesn't remember everyone and everything. Also, there's something more behind the amnesia than just a mental illness given the fact that he was dead.

Exile in KotOR2 is one good example of how you can strip the hero from his powers.
There are many ways to do that - in the world of magic? a curse f.e. And it could've been such a good -subplot- in TW if done right - fighting the curse and the one who cursed.

Curse? Curses are even more cliche than amnesia, and I bet you'd be whining as much as now if he was "cursed".

hey why to strip the hero from his powers? It's overused as well. Simply don't give that much attention to why Geralt is so weak at first. Because it is better than making a ridiculous excuse.

I was talking about this before

Uhm... Grandmaster IS Alvin.

That's exactly what I'm saying...

CD Projekt could've made so many endings based on how you influenced him but they decided to lose that potential by simply going the only way of making Alvin a racist psycho and even not letting you to finish that quest. It's just like at some point they decided "oh fuck this shit! That will take soo much time and effort. Let's just do it one way. And I'm sure nobody will notice or care"

Because the point is, Alvin, being the Grandmaster, WAS a racist psycho, and just the 'fatherly powers of Geralt' would never be enough to make his broken mind work properly again.

 

[Volourn]

"This way it's just silly."

A lot more sense then Geralt's bullshit amensia. L0L
_________________

 

[MetalCraze]

He doesn't remember everyone and everything. Also, there's something more behind the amnesia than just a mental illness given the fact that he was dead.

Ah yes that too.
- Hey guys I was killed but I'm alive and don't remember a thing.
- Why?
- Ermmm... I don't know.
Actually that was just as bad as robots invading ME universe for no reason. And don't tell me the "itwillbeinasequel" excuse. Something must be told from the start - especially if you give it sooo much attention.

Curse? Curses are even more cliche than amnesia, and I bet you'd be whining as much as now if he was "cursed".

if done properly? no. Amnesia in TW wasn't done properly. Look at PS:T - Amnesia fit ok into the storyline there because it was explained and from it a great story was developed - especially considering that TNO didn't remember absolutely anything.
In TW amnesia felt like a lame excuse. As Geralt repeated quite constantly that he has it but that's where it always ended.

Because the point is, Alvin, being the Grandmaster, WAS a racist psycho, and just the 'fatherly powers of Geralt' would never be enough to make his broken mind work properly again.

The fact that you worked for that quest so much - game was giving you so much choices and then in the end Geralt went like "hey Alvin you're an illusion go away" - which obviously could be an excuse why Grandmaster could be so butthurt and gone psycho. But Geralt had no problem believing that all other characters in that vision are real (if a player wished so) and how about giving a player a choice again to decide and change the future/present/whatever?
Hey in talented hands it could've been such a great thing + again: multiple endings, but CD Projekt just lost that potential by railroading player in the end.

 

[Volourn]

"Actually that was just as bad as robots invading ME universe for no reason. And don't tell me the "itwillbeinasequel" excuse. Something must be told from the start - especially if you give it sooo much attention."

Bullshit. It's called mystery. I guess you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. There's no reason for you to know 100% why the machines invade the ME universe since you only interatc with on eof them, and it has nor eason to tell you since it plans to kill you anyways.

Dumbass.