Converting Kreia to VtM

[Deleted Member 10432]

Dicksmoker is right but for the wrong reasons. What makes Kreia an interesting character is that she contradicts herself at every turn, has mixed motives and - for once - makes the ends justify the means in a way that isn't dumbass 'i r eeevul' with a sprinkling of half-remembered, shitty metalhead lyrics thrown in.

A lot of people seem to confuse personal dislike with something actually being wrong with the character. Know that Kreia is infinitely more credible than one-note stuff fluff like Zhjaeve, Sa'Sani, or, and this one's going to make me friends, Safiya (and before you object, be sure you distinguish her character and her backstory, kthx).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Overall, Kreia is what the Codex would call a butthurt character. She was weak and bitter. She was too weak to resist the call of the Dark Side. She was too weak to keep her Sith apprentices in check and ended up being discarded and thrown out again. Her conclusion? Both sides of the Force are bad and she dedicates her bitter existence to destroying it because it didn't work out for her. And she fails again. Fails to mold you into her own image because she is a shitty teacher. Fails to defeat you. Fails at pretty much everything. All she can do is to say that that's what she wanted all along because that's exactly what butthurt people do. They claim that it was all part of the plan.

Well if you refuse to believe her, that's your issue.

Are there reasons to believe her?

I've already explained her intentions and you've brushed them off as simple butthurt.

Let's see....

"But at the end after you defeat her she admits that all along she wanted you to succeed, because in so doing you prove that you are your own master and are not controlled by the Force."

How exactly does becoming a Force creature and killing Kreia (and thus saving the Force) prove that you are not controlled by the Force? Inquiring mind wants to know.

Edit: You played a gray character and it worked? Would you agree that gray characters who've managed to avoid taking a side in K2 don't represent a typical character? And if Kreia says the same thing to any character, she becomes a one dimensional cardboard cut out?

She doesn't like it when you act charitably to others, but she'll comdemn you equaly for senseless acts of cruelty.

In other words, you just can't please the old and jealous bitch.

I guess that explains why I was able to max out most of her influence on the first playthorugh, right?

Well, considering that the influence system was broken and you scored points by saying the right things, which in Kreia's case was the most butthurt response ("no, I don't care about my friends, thanks for asking."), it was hardly an achievement.

I think it's time now for you to give your versions of brilliant characters. You've already dismissed Ravel along with Kreia, so I'm genuinely curious now.

I think that's a good topic for another thread.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Know that Kreia is infinitely more credible than one-note stuff fluff like Zhjaeve, Sa'Sani, or, and this one's going to make me friends, Safiya ...

No arguing here.

 

[made]

OMG Vampire Kreia! *fap fap fap*

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks for comparing me to Kreia VD, what did i ever do to you?

Ironically, you've followed the same path.

 

[Silellak]

She wants to destroy the Force, doesn't she? That's why she leaves the Exile at some point and goes to Malachor determined to carry out her plans. Then you show up and kick her bitter ass and she says ... "Excellent! It's all part of my clevar plan!"?

You just ruined her life's work and that's her plan? You can be either the Light Side righteous dude or the Dark Side's evil spawn and even though she hates both sides because she failed to fit in, she's happy for you? Bullshit.

Her hatred of the Force stemmed from the way in which it manipulates the destinies of everyone. There's no free will as long as the Force is always telling people what to do. She doesn't hate you, because in the end, like her, you aren't a Jedi or a Sith - no matter towards which side you've "leaned" during the game. You are, so far, one of the few beings in the galaxy capable of severing their connection to the Force without dying. Even if you ACT like a Jedi, you AREN'T a Jedi, because unlike them, you can live - and even thrive - without the Force. The only people she despises are those who depend on the Force like a crutch and are worthless without it.

In many ways, her view of the Force is the same as Kaelyn's view of the Wall of the Faithless: something fundamentally wrong with the way their universe works, and that needs to be destroyed, regardless of the cost, for the Greater Good.

I imagine you may've already read the big KotoR II Let's Play, but I had a great deal more respect for the game when a lot of the small things going on in the background that I overlooked (or simply missed) were revealed. I think this page alone, though, is pretty good at illustrating why many consider Kreia to be a deep and interesting character:

http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR 2/Update 59/index.html

 

[sheek]

None of the Jedi in KOTOR 2 made any sense to me. Up until half way through I tried to understand Kreia's "philosophy" then gave up, and only cared about influence points, optimizing my lightside meter and gaining special abilities. It's all very vague because I think even the developers have no clue.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Overall, Kreia is what the Codex would call a butthurt character. She was weak and bitter. She was too weak to resist the call of the Dark Side. She was too weak to keep her Sith apprentices in check and ended up being discarded and thrown out again. Her conclusion? Both sides of the Force are bad and she dedicates her bitter existence to destroying it because it didn't work out for her. And she fails again. Fails to mold you into her own image because she is a shitty teacher. Fails to defeat you. Fails at pretty much everything. All she can do is to say that that's what she wanted all along because that's exactly what butthurt people do. They claim that it was all part of the plan.

Well if you refuse to believe her, that's your issue.

Are there reasons to believe her?

Yes. First, there is the brutal honesty that she uses to unravel the intentions of others, look into their hearts. She does this several times to different characters. For someone that could know so much about human nature, it wouldn't make much sense for her to be completely blind to herself. Also, all the discussions that she has with you seems to come from genuine concern and a true effort to teach. Would all her moral lecturing really be necessary if she just wanted to use you?

I've already explained her intentions and you've brushed them off as simple butthurt.

Let's see....

"But at the end after you defeat her she admits that all along she wanted you to succeed, because in so doing you prove that you are your own master and are not controlled by the Force."

How exactly does becoming a Force creature and killing Kreia (and thus saving the Force) prove that you are not controlled by the Force? Inquiring mind wants to know.

This:

Her hatred of the Force stemmed from the way in which it manipulates the destinies of everyone. There's no free will as long as the Force is always telling people what to do. She doesn't hate you, because in the end, like her, you aren't a Jedi or a Sith - no matter towards which side you've "leaned" during the game. You are, so far, one of the few beings in the galaxy capable of severing their connection to the Force without dying. Even if you ACT like a Jedi, you AREN'T a Jedi, because unlike them, you can live - and even thrive - without the Force. The only people she despises are those who depend on the Force like a crutch and are worthless without it.

In many ways, her view of the Force is the same as Kaelyn's view of the Wall of the Faithless: something fundamentally wrong with the way their universe works, and that needs to be destroyed, regardless of the cost, for the Greater Good.

I imagine you may've already read the big KotoR II Let's Play, but I had a great deal more respect for the game when a lot of the small things going on in the background that I overlooked (or simply missed) were revealed. I think this page alone, though, is pretty good at illustrating why many consider Kreia to be a deep and interesting character:

http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KOTOR 2/Update 59/index.html

Thanks. I had forgotten some of that.

I will say, however, that it makes less sense for someone who is full light or dark. Luckily I didn't have to worry about that.

Edit: You played a gray character and it worked?

What do you mean by "worked?" That I was able to play the games without too much difficulty? Sure. The only real issue I remember is the final fight of Kotor 1 where I had to do a shit-load of running.

Would you agree that gray characters who've managed to avoid taking a side in K2 don't represent a typical character?

Certainly not for Bio-fanboys but I had thought that on the Codex it might be more prominent.

And if Kreia says the same thing to any character, she becomes a one dimensional cardboard cut out?

I wouldn't go that far, but it loses some credibility.

Well, considering that the influence system was broken and you scored points by saying the right things, which in Kreia's case was the most butthurt response ("no, I don't care about my friends, thanks for asking."), it was hardly an achievement.

It didn't really work for me that way. Like I said, I played a grey character, and a lot of my actions were in keeping with what she wanted. So there's some influence points. Then there were some times that I told her I didn't trust her. More influence. I also remember one instance after I had just gotten Visas. Kreia said that she was dangerous because she still carried a link to her former master. One of my options was something like: "A link which we can then follow back to its source." I picked it, and then got "Ah, you are learning..." or somesuch. Large influence gain. She appreciates people being crafty and manipulating others. And I didn't care about Visas at the moment. Why should I? She had just attacked me. My feelings changed later, but at first that was my initial response.

But yes, there were other periods where she tried to convince me to use my other companions. I refused most of those, and that is what kept me from getting full influence with her.

I think it's time now for you to give your versions of brilliant characters. You've already dismissed Ravel along with Kreia, so I'm genuinely curious now.

I think that's a good topic for another thread.

(eagerly awaits new topic)

 

[Lockkaliber]

Anybody can be an interesting character regardless of strengths or weaknesses, but that requires a lot more than saying "this character has a weakness, isn't she deep and marvelous?" As Avellone said, Kreia is Ravel's leftovers, bits and pieces of personality, basically.

Who said she's a deep and marvelous character just because she is weak? I certainly didn't. I said a character with weaknesses can be interesting since you seemed to imply otherwise.

All she can do is to say that that's what she wanted all along because that's exactly what butthurt people do. They claim that it was all part of the plan.

Yes. This is obviously what Avellone had in mind when he wrote her dialog.

Apart from the fact that what she says makes sense, if you buy into the whole student/apprentice thing.

She wants to destroy the Force, doesn't she? That's why she leaves the Exile at some point and goes to Malachor determined to carry out her plans. Then you show up and kick her bitter ass and she says ... "Excellent! It's all part of my clevar plan!"?

That is not what happened. I recommend you play the game again. Kreia may have started out as a butthurt outcast from both sides of the party, and she then tried to find the exile because she needed him to deafen everyone from the force. What happened after that is she became attached to him. If she just needed him to do that specific thing, why bother with the whole master/student charade instead of just tagging along? They had developed the force bond already so that would be motivation enough. Why teach him all that stuff, why try to impose her philosophy on him? She discovered that he had potential, perhaps even more than Revan and she gradually started to think of him as her last apprentice. It's even backed up by the dialog.

"You are not a Jedi. Not truly. And it is for that I love you."

This is not a hard concept to grasp.

You just ruined her life's work and that's her plan? You can be either the Light Side righteous dude or the Dark Side's evil spawn and even though she hates both sides because she failed to fit in, she's happy for you? Bullshit.

Yes it might seem like bullshit if you are an idiot and don't know how basic human emotions work.

NO U.

:wink:

 

[felicity]

Kreia is a good example of an anti-thesis character that takes itself too seriously. Every one of her words sounds like something straight out from a priest of those random new religions. And she's the epitome of a character that is designed to give player blowjob.

Moral grey-ness? Check.
Faux philosophy? Check.
I-disagree-with-both-sides neutrality? Check.
Anti-thesis to the series? Check.
Übermensch? Check.
Scretive schemer? Check.
Mentor that somehow loves you but ultimately will have to fight you anyway? Big check.
Freedom incarnate? Double Check.

I probably miss out a few still. Can a character get anymore ass kissing than that?

 

[Vibalist]

Kreia is a good example of an anti-thesis character that takes itself too seriously. Every one of her words sounds like something straight out from a priest of those random new religions. And she's the epitome of a character that is designed to give player blowjob.

Moral grey-ness? Check.
Faux philosophy? Check.
I-disagree-with-both-sides neutrality? Check.
Anti-thesis to the series? Check.
Übermensch? Check.
Scretive schemer? Check.
Mentor that somehow loves you but ultimately will have to fight you anyway? Big check.
Freedom incarnate? Double Check.

I probably miss out a few still. Can a character get anymore ass kissing than that?

I kind of agree. Much of Kreia's appeal lay in her "uniqueness", but as with many of Chris Avellones creations, this is simply an archetype turned upside down.

But that can be interesting in and of itself.

 

[Shannow]

The trial is overrated by Codexians? That's a new one.

Whenever NWN2 comes up a significant part of the posters will claim NWN2 improves after the first Act. The Trial is often favourably mentioned. Oh, and it is completely overrated.

She doesn't.

She sees the Force as a tool. You said it yourself. She doesn't believe in emotional detachment. She only left Sith-society because she was overthrown. Not because she fundamentally disagreed with their views. Sith don't see the Force as a guiding entity but as a source of power to be harnessed for personal gain. Kreia never moved away from that attitude.

and are a megalomaniac

She isn't.

The Force steers people as little as God does. There is no antagonistic power to the Force. The Jedi believe the Force to be benevolent and submit to its guidance in trying times. The Sith see it as a powersource. So without an antagonistic power and the Force guiding everybody why is the universe in constant strife? Her very thesis is flawed in a crazy way. Killing the Force is also a megalomaniac goal. And if one follows your reasoning that she wants to kill the Force but also wants you to succeed because she believes that would make you independent from it but which also means that you're probably being guided by it... Well, that'd be schizophrenic.

She is inconsistent with the setting. That's what makes it good.

FO3 is inconsistent with its setting... See where I'm getting at?

No, she wanted you to succeed so she wouldn't have to destroy the Force.

See, I remember the story this way (and I may be wrong): You two share a force bond. If one dies the force dies. You killed the force when you killed her only you didn't. I always put that nonsense to KotOR2's unfinished state.

I agree, all companions should be cardboard cut-outs who are only there when you need them to kill something.

A strawman was the best you could come up with?

Look harder.

Wow, a one-liner that isn't even fit as a response. I'm impressed.

Guess what? Most of what was in my post I was able to surmise from my first playthrough, without consulting anyone or looking online for explanations.

Guess what? Most of what was in my post I was able to surmise from my first playthrough, without consulting anyone or looking online for explanations.

So it's there, you just have to search and do some thinking. I guess it was all too HARDCORE for you.

Why would I "have" to search for anything? And that "hardcore part" just makes you look ridiculous.

Pro-tip: if you're going to insult someone do it in a language they can understand. Else it loses its effectiveness.

The song just fit the thread. If I'd wanted to insult you I would have done so. Your name insults you more than I'd ever bother to do, anyway.
Seriously, why are you behaving so butthurt over me disagreeing with you. You're managing to have a civilized discussion with VD. Why not me? Not that I actually want to prolong this discussion. All was said and we won't agree.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anybody can be an interesting character regardless of strengths or weaknesses, but that requires a lot more than saying "this character has a weakness, isn't she deep and marvelous?" As Avellone said, Kreia is Ravel's leftovers, bits and pieces of personality, basically.

Who said she's a deep and marvelous character just because she is weak? I certainly didn't. I said a character with weaknesses can be interesting since you seemed to imply otherwise.

I didn't. Are we done discussing this particular aspect?

All she can do is to say that that's what she wanted all along because that's exactly what butthurt people do. They claim that it was all part of the plan.

Yes. This is obviously what Avellone had in mind when he wrote her dialog.

I have no idea what Avellone had in mind when he was writing the ending. Quite possibly all he was thinking was "fucking Lucas Arts".

Apart from the fact that what she says makes sense, if you buy into the whole student/apprentice thing.

She wants to destroy the Force, doesn't she? That's why she leaves the Exile at some point and goes to Malachor determined to carry out her plans. Then you show up and kick her bitter ass and she says ... "Excellent! It's all part of my clevar plan!"?

That is not what happened. I recommend you play the game again. Kreia may have started out as a butthurt outcast from both sides of the party, and she then tried to find the exile because she needed him to deafen everyone from the force. What happened after that is she became attached to him. If she just needed him to do that specific thing, why bother with the whole master/student charade instead of just tagging along? They had developed the force bond already so that would be motivation enough. Why teach him all that stuff, why try to impose her philosophy on him? She discovered that he had potential, perhaps even more than Revan and she gradually started to think of him as her last apprentice. It's even backed up by the dialog.

Because it's a game? I mean, if a party member says "holly shit, I think we've developed a bond so I'll go with you and train you in my art" that shouldn't shock you because that's expected. Now Ravel, for example, resisted the temptation to join your party and that alone made her a more interesting and less game-y character.

"You are not a Jedi. Not truly. And it is for that I love you."

This is not a hard concept to grasp.

Except for the part of you possibly being holier-than-Yoda, literally shining with inner light Jedi.

You just ruined her life's work and that's her plan? You can be either the Light Side righteous dude or the Dark Side's evil spawn and even though she hates both sides because she failed to fit in, she's happy for you? Bullshit.

Yes it might seem like bullshit if you are an idiot and don't know how basic human emotions work.

We all know that insults are the best arguments, and since you are new you are doing your best to fit in and act angry, but how about actually addressing my arguments instead of typing "bullshit", "only if you're an idiot", and "u r wrong, play the gaem again!!!"

 

[Vault Dweller]

The trial is overrated by Codexians? That's a new one.

Whenever NWN2 comes up a significant part of the posters will claim NWN2 improves after the first Act. The Trial is often favourably mentioned. Oh, and it is completely overrated.

She doesn't.

She sees the Force as a tool. You said it yourself. She doesn't believe in emotional detachment. She only left Sith-society because she was overthrown. Not because she fundamentally disagreed with their views. Sith don't see the Force as a guiding entity but as a source of power to be harnessed for personal gain. Kreia never moved away from that attitude.

and are a megalomaniac

She isn't.

The Force steers people as little as God does. There is no antagonistic power to the Force. The Jedi believe the Force to be benevolent and submit to its guidance in trying times. The Sith see it as a powersource. So without an antagonistic power and the Force guiding everybody why is the universe in constant strife? Her very thesis is flawed in a crazy way. Killing the Force is also a megalomaniac goal. And if one follows your reasoning that she wants to kill the Force but also wants you to succeed because she believes that would make you independent from it but which also means that you're probably being guided by it... Well, that'd be schizophrenic.

Completely agree.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also, all the discussions that she has with you seems to come from genuine concern and a true effort to teach. Would all her moral lecturing really be necessary if she just wanted to use you?

Hence the inconsistency and character design contradictions.

This:

Her hatred of the Force stemmed from the way in which it manipulates the destinies of everyone. There's no free will as long as the Force is always telling people what to do. She doesn't hate you, because in the end, like her, you aren't a Jedi or a Sith - no matter towards which side you've "leaned" during the game. You are, so far, one of the few beings in the galaxy capable of severing their connection to the Force without dying. Even if you ACT like a Jedi, you AREN'T a Jedi, because unlike them, you can live - and even thrive - without the Force. The only people she despises are those who depend on the Force like a crutch and are worthless without it.

a) if there was no free will, people wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and join the Dark Side, for example. The fall is always a choice.

b) you can be either a Jedi or a Sith and saying "no you are not la-la-la" doesn't change that fact. It doesn't make Kreia wise or brilliant. It makes her even more "butthurt".

c) I don't understand that "disconnected from the Force" business. According to the lore, the Force flows through all beings, but only Force sensitive beings can harness the power. Since non-Force-sensitive people who live without the Force, I see no reasons why a Force sensitive person who is unable to sense the Force anymore shouldn't be able to live without it. Can anyone explain?

Edit: You played a gray character and it worked?

What do you mean by "worked?" That I was able to play the games without too much difficulty? Sure. The only real issue I remember is the final fight of Kotor 1 where I had to do a shit-load of running.

I mean the only way Kreia's attitude makes sense is if you played a "gray" character. Had she spat on you for failing to listen to her and becoming a Force puppet, the game would have been much better.

 

[Helton]

Were Handmaiden and Visas still on Malachor when it exploded?

 

[racofer]

Everything points that yes, they were.

 

[Helton]

That's kind of fucked up. Guess there won't be any reinforcements and... Damn that's fucked up, Exile.

 

[Pastel]

Well, just thinking about the premise of "Hyperspace ship crashes BOOM EVERYONE GOES FLYING THROUGH THE WINDSCREEN"...

 

[Forest Dweller]

Whenever NWN2 comes up a significant part of the posters will claim NWN2 improves after the first Act. The Trial is often favourably mentioned. Oh, and it is completely overrated.

Every time I recall the trial being mentioned people were angry about it because it had a bunch of choices leading to the same outcome.

She sees the Force as a tool. You said it yourself. She doesn't believe in emotional detachment. She only left Sith-society because she was overthrown. Not because she fundamentally disagreed with their views.

At first, yes, but later she changed.

Sith don't see the Force as a guiding entity but as a source of power to be harnessed for personal gain. Kreia never moved away from that attitude.

That's one area that they have in common. But Sith also beleive in using anger to guide you, and is giving in to your emotions. Kreia doesn't agree with that.

Look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-LmZ7D4_5M

"What do you wish to hear?...That for every good work that I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what they greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me?"

Listen to the words and how she speaks them (great voice actor btw). There is remorse in there. Would a Sith feel remorse?

The Force steers people as little as God does. There is no antagonistic power to the Force. The Jedi believe the Force to be benevolent and submit to its guidance in trying times. The Sith see it as a powersource. So without an antagonistic power and the Force guiding everybody why is the universe in constant strife? Her very thesis is flawed in a crazy way. Killing the Force is also a megalomaniac goal.

So in other words, it's okay for people not to have free will.

And if one follows your reasoning that she wants to kill the Force but also wants you to succeed because she believes that would make you independent from it but which also means that you're probably being guided by it... Well, that'd be schizophrenic.

How would I be guided by it? Because I'm saving it? That doesn't necessarily correllate. And remember that if you don't stop her you will die. So there's self-preservation right there.

She is inconsistent with the setting. That's what makes it good.

FO3 is inconsistent with its setting... See where I'm getting at?

Except that the Star Wars setting needed shaking up.

See, I remember the story this way (and I may be wrong): You two share a force bond. If one dies the force dies. You killed the force when you killed her only you didn't. I always put that nonsense to KotOR2's unfinished state.

No. You saved the Force by killing her.

I agree, all companions should be cardboard cut-outs who are only there when you need them to kill something.

A strawman was the best you could come up with?

Well? You complained about her nagging after I had given examples of her character depth, so I drew the only logical conclusion.

Look harder.

Wow, a one-liner that isn't even fit as a response. I'm impressed.

I gave examples of things she did in the game, and you said you never encountered them. So look harder.

Guess what? Most of what was in my post I was able to surmise from my first playthrough, without consulting anyone or looking online for explanations.

Guess what? Most of what was in my post I was able to surmise from my first playthrough, without consulting anyone or looking online for explanations.

And?

So it's there, you just have to search and do some thinking. I guess it was all too HARDCORE for you.

Why would I "have" to search for anything? And that "hardcore part" just makes you look ridiculous.

In other words, you want to be spoonfed.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Also, all the discussions that she has with you seems to come from genuine concern and a true effort to teach. Would all her moral lecturing really be necessary if she just wanted to use you?

Hence the inconsistency and character design contradictions.

That's some awesome arguing you have there. I present a view of Kreia that is consistent, and you deny it saying that she is butthurt and wants to use me. Then I present evidence that goes against your thesis, and you brush it all off as "inconsistencies" and "design contradiction." What can I do? I simply have no power against your skills.

a) if there was no free will, people wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and join the Dark Side, for example. The fall is always a choice.

I didn't say there was no free will at all, but the Force lessens it.

b) you can be either a Jedi or a Sith and saying "no you are not la-la-la" doesn't change that fact. It doesn't make Kreia wise or brilliant. It makes her even more "butthurt".

According to the official canon and the movies, yes. But who said that couldn't be challenged? It's the only way to move the setting away from its childish, simple morality. And Kotor 2 did that.

c) I don't understand that "disconnected from the Force" business. According to the lore, the Force flows through all beings, but only Force sensitive beings can harness the power. Since non-Force-sensitive people who live without the Force, I see no reasons why a Force sensitive person who is unable to sense the Force anymore shouldn't be able to live without it. Can anyone explain?

Because he has already been living with it for so long. Imagine a world where most people are blind and there are only a few people with sight. Then one of those people loses his sight. Would it be the same for him as the people who were blind all along?

And I think in the game it wasn't just not being able to use it anymore, it was a complete severing, more than what even "normal" people feel.

Edit: You played a gray character and it worked?

What do you mean by "worked?" That I was able to play the games without too much difficulty? Sure. The only real issue I remember is the final fight of Kotor 1 where I had to do a shit-load of running.

I mean the only way Kreia's attitude makes sense is if you played a "gray" character. Had she spat on you for failing to listen to her and becoming a Force puppet, the game would have been much better.

I will agree with you there. But it still makes sense no matter what because of what Silellak said about you severing yourself from the Force. It's just not as good.

In my opinion, the grey path is the ideal playthrough if you want to get the most out of the game.

 

[Deleted Member 10432]

She sees the Force as a tool. You said it yourself. She doesn't believe in emotional detachment. She only left Sith-society because she was overthrown. Not because she fundamentally disagreed with their views. Sith don't see the Force as a guiding entity but as a source of power to be harnessed for personal gain. Kreia never moved away from that attitude.

But she doesn't. She starts seeing it as some evil god. Is it impossible that a person's opinion of the Force could change after being thrown out by the Jedi and the Sith?

The Force steers people as little as God does.

Without starting a theological debate more charged than this one, you do know that that comment is in itself highly dubious?

There is no antagonistic power to the Force. The Jedi believe the Force to be benevolent and submit to its guidance in trying times. The Sith see it as a powersource. So without an antagonistic power and the Force guiding everybody why is the universe in constant strife?

According to her, because of the existence of both Jedi and Sith, and the Force's need, desire, whatever to perform a cosmic-karmic balancing-act.

Her very thesis is flawed in a crazy way.

So a character being wrong makes the character bad? I'd say that was dubious reasoning, too.

Killing the Force is also a megalomaniac goal.

How?

And if one follows your reasoning that she wants to kill the Force but also wants you to succeed because she believes that would make you independent from it but which also means that you're probably being guided by it... Well, that'd be schizophrenic.

Heaven forfend that characters should be a mess of contradictions and hypocrisies... Why, that almost suggests that humans might not be entirely consistent in their thought.

I have no idea what Avellone had in mind when he was writing the ending. Quite possibly all he was thinking was "fucking Lucas Arts".

Is it not usual for the actual writing to be finished some months before implementation?

She wants to destroy the Force, doesn't she? That's why she leaves the Exile at some point and goes to Malachor determined to carry out her plans. Then you show up and kick her bitter ass and she says ... "Excellent! It's all part of my clevar plan!"?

As I recall, you say "I've come to stop you", and she says "I know", which is rather different. Also, I don't think she ever herself says that she's going to destroy the Force - everyone else reaches that assumption. One of the major themes of the game is the faulty narrator, so it shouldn't be surprising that even towards the end the player is being fed misinformation. She may say that she's going to do it at the Dantooine bit, but I don't think so.

Also, did you ever take the dialogue option "You were manipulating me all along", owtte?

Because it's a game? I mean, if a party member says "holly shit, I think we've developed a bond so I'll go with you and train you in my art" that shouldn't shock you because that's expected. Now Ravel, for example, resisted the temptation to join your party and that alone made her a more interesting and less game-y character.

Why?

Except for the part of you possibly being holier-than-Yoda, literally shining with inner light Jedi.

So being good = being a Jedi?

We all know that insults are the best arguments, and since you are new you are doing your best to fit in and act angry, but how about actually addressing my arguments instead of typing "bullshit", "only if you're an idiot", and "u r wrong, play the gaem again!!!"

Unlike that oh-so-neutral and sensible term, "butthurt"?

Hence the inconsistency and character design contradictions.

So contradicting herself is inherently bad character design? I'm pretty sure it was intentional, given the way her hate for the Force/loathing for the material runs right through the game (cf: the "Betrayal!" cut content relating to the droids).

This:
a) if there was no free will, people wouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and join the Dark Side, for example. The fall is always a choice.

Unless the Dark Side is still part of that big karma-balancing-act, of course.

 

[Hamster]

She is inconsistent with the setting. That's what makes it good.

FO3 is inconsistent with its setting... See where I'm getting at?

It's the Dark Side of Codex in action - appreciation of supposedly good writing gone too far. Even putting hypocrisy of "it's completely ok to rape a setting if it's not the one i like" aside, in Kotor setting was one of a few things that kept it worth playing so it was enjoyable at least for Star Wars fans. When Obsidian fucked up the setting what was left is a game that lacks gameplay, setting, graphics, level design, basicaly everything. But, omg, it has a cryptic character so original for this "boring SW setting", how awesome!

I didn't bother to play far enough into Kotor 2 to see how "awesome" Kreia is, but the fact that a character that is so obviously going to fuck you up further along the storyline is forced into your party is bad enough for me already. Also, the goal of destroing the Force is complete idiocy.

 

[Liberal]

Oh My God.

 

[Liberal]

When Obsidian fucked up the setting what was left is a game that lacks gameplay, setting, graphics, level design, basicaly everything.

Bullshit, as usual.