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Development Info Coreplay Issues Statement in Response to bitComposer Interview

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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I've worked on both ends of such a deal before, but brazilians checking on video milestones is something mild and easily agreeable. The workings of the same deal on complex cRPGs that take years to develop and has a bazillion assets and mechanics can be quite tricky, I imagine... both to complete and to verify the completion.
 

Capitalism

Educated
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Messages
95
Soviet mentality - just because something was planned, it will magically happen, and if it won't, we'll pretend that it happened - at the cost of gamers who would buy an unfinished game, of course. Judging by the amount of time missing, it would be comparable to the Realms of Arcania demake.
Making games is more of art than science and release dates shifting a few to several months aren't exactly uncommon. You can't scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project.
Are you a moron? Don't answer, you are. Making game is business and every publisher/investor invests HIS FUCKING MONEYZ. The money will go to salaries and things outside Coreplay's competence. So you can "scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project", it's called business plan. And what it has to do with the Soviet mentality?

I must repeat myself, both publisher and developer fucked up everything and because of their dispute we won't get the game. If you want to hate evilPublisher then hate it for Citadels or almost unexisting Expeditions: Conquistador support.
 

ikarinokami

Augur
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
109
Soviet mentality - just because something was planned, it will magically happen, and if it won't, we'll pretend that it happened - at the cost of gamers who would buy an unfinished game, of course. Judging by the amount of time missing, it would be comparable to the Realms of Arcania demake.
Making games is more of art than science and release dates shifting a few to several months aren't exactly uncommon. You can't scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project.
Are you a moron? Don't answer, you are. Making game is business and every publisher/investor invests HIS FUCKING MONEYZ. The money will go to salaries and things outside Coreplay's competence. So you can "scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project", it's called business plan. And what it has to do with the Soviet mentality?

I must repeat myself, both publisher and developer fucked up everything and because of their dispute we won't get the game. If you want to hate evilPublisher then hate it for Citadels or almost unexisting Expeditions: Conquistador support.


I have to dissent. The developer when out and got something who would pay them to finsih the game correctly, they also offered to buy out bitcomposer. From all i have read coreplay has acted rationally, it's bitcompser that is acting irrationally. Bitcomposer started with avarice, wanted to release in incomplete game based upon an unrealistic shedule, and now don't want to take the money and walk away and let coreplay to thier thing with the game.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
It seems to me that bc doesn't want to invest more money to the project, but at the same time they don't want to take their money back and walk away with zero profit.
At the same time coreplay won't accept an unfinished game released, but won't continue pouring their own/investor's money in the project if bc will take all the profits as in the original contract where bc paid for everything.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Soviet mentality - just because something was planned, it will magically happen, and if it won't, we'll pretend that it happened - at the cost of gamers who would buy an unfinished game, of course. Judging by the amount of time missing, it would be comparable to the Realms of Arcania demake.
Making games is more of art than science and release dates shifting a few to several months aren't exactly uncommon. You can't scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project.
Are you a moron? Don't answer, you are. Making game is business and every publisher/investor invests HIS FUCKING MONEYZ. The money will go to salaries and things outside Coreplay's competence. So you can "scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project", it's called business plan. And what it has to do with the Soviet mentality?

I must repeat myself, both publisher and developer fucked up everything and because of their dispute we won't get the game. If you want to hate evilPublisher then hate it for Citadels or almost unexisting Expeditions: Conquistador support.


I have to dissent. The developer when out and got something who would pay them to finsih the game correctly, they also offered to buy out bitcomposer. From all i have read coreplay has acted rationally, it's bitcompser that is acting irrationally. Bitcomposer started with avarice, wanted to release in incomplete game based upon an unrealistic shedule, and now don't want to take the money and walk away and let coreplay to thier thing with the game.

If you thought a developer had pulled a bait and switch on you by taking your money to ostensibly convert an existing game into another sort of game, when they were really planning to use that money to develop an entirely new game from nearly scratch before cutting you loose, you might not be so eager to let them run off scot-free either.
 

Capitalism

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@ikarinokami, as I understand there was original agreement for Chaos Chronicles that led to February/March 2013 release and when Coreplay realized that the would not finish the game in time they tried to get additional funding. Coreplay tried to do the right thing from their point of view, but then it turned to a total fucking mess. Maybe bitComposer couldn't afford additional funding for Chaos Chronicles and insisted on sticking to original release date. Again, they didn't want to release unfinished game. They wanted Coreplay to finish it in time. Of course, we all know how bitComposer acts when the game isn't in finished state.
I don't know the reasons for milestone screwjob (if it's true), but then some contractual shit started to happen, partly because Coreplay invested in game much more than they expected, and I'm not talking about the money only. It's logical: if you've been through some serious shit with your work, then you want full rights to it.
It's a pretty complicated situation where nobody's right and nobody's wrong, and it's seems that both sides will not even discuss a possible compromise.
 

ikarinokami

Augur
Joined
May 5, 2013
Messages
109
Soviet mentality - just because something was planned, it will magically happen, and if it won't, we'll pretend that it happened - at the cost of gamers who would buy an unfinished game, of course. Judging by the amount of time missing, it would be comparable to the Realms of Arcania demake.
Making games is more of art than science and release dates shifting a few to several months aren't exactly uncommon. You can't scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project.
Are you a moron? Don't answer, you are. Making game is business and every publisher/investor invests HIS FUCKING MONEYZ. The money will go to salaries and things outside Coreplay's competence. So you can "scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project", it's called business plan. And what it has to do with the Soviet mentality?

I must repeat myself, both publisher and developer fucked up everything and because of their dispute we won't get the game. If you want to hate evilPublisher then hate it for Citadels or almost unexisting Expeditions: Conquistador support.


I have to dissent. The developer when out and got something who would pay them to finsih the game correctly, they also offered to buy out bitcomposer. From all i have read coreplay has acted rationally, it's bitcompser that is acting irrationally. Bitcomposer started with avarice, wanted to release in incomplete game based upon an unrealistic shedule, and now don't want to take the money and walk away and let coreplay to thier thing with the game.

If you thought a developer had pulled a bait and switch on you by taking your money to ostensibly convert an existing game into another sort of game, when they were really planning to use that money to develop an entirely new game from nearly scratch before cutting you loose, you might not be so eager to let them run off scot-free either.

But it's not scott free. bitcomposer won't be any worse off. Coreplay offered to pay them back, bitcomposer would be made whole. Bitcomposer's postition is predatory, instead of taking the money and being made whole, they are gambling that coreplay will eventually cave use there own money to finsih the game, and then bitcomposer can swoop in and take the majority of the profits
 

Infinitron

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But it's not scott free. bitcomposer won't be any worse off. Coreplay offered to pay them back, bitcomposer would be made whole. Bitcomposer's postition is predatory, instead of taking the money and being made whole, they are gambling that coreplay will eventually cave use there own money to finsih the game, and then bitcomposer can swoop in and take the majority of the profits

It's probably more likely that bC are waiting for them to cave in and sign a contract that's more favorable to bC (and resume getting funds from bC). I'm not sure Coreplay have the money to finish the game themselves.

As for bitComposer not being worse off, well, they would be losing the opportunity to sell the finished game.
 

Capitalism

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As for bitComposer being worse off, well, they would be losing the opportunity to sell the finished game.
Not sure about that, but certainly they would lose the opportunity to sell possible sequels, as I understand.
 
In My Safe Space
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Making game is business and every publisher/investor invests HIS FUCKING MONEYZ. The money will go to salaries and things outside Coreplay's competence. So you can "scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project", it's called business plan.
No. Business plan won't work because we're talking about a creation of an extremely complex product here. With this level of complication of product it's virtually impossible to determine when it will be finished with a precision to 1-2 months.
Again, there isn't a scjenmagistic formula for calculating time of development of a complex cRPG. There's a reason why Age of Decadence is coming out "on Thursday" and Grimoire is coming "soon".

In TEH MONEYZ terms, if bitComposer has read the list of features of this game, their first thought should be "Oh shit, this is going to be messy" and either not fund the game or prepare for it going over budget due to slipping release dates.

And what it has to do with the Soviet mentality?
Soviet mentality is ignoring reality and trying to replace it with "the plan". It doesn't matter if the game is unfinished and impossible to finish in that time. Gamers will be conned into buying it anyway.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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If it is true that bC haven't paid what they were contractually bound to pay, that gives a new perspective on this, along with the dodgy bs answer crashOberbreit gave about Citadels.

It still strikes me as poor business handling to skip a meeting, though. Maybe @Vault Dweller can give his own perspective, given his background as a VP of marketing.
Not sure what marketing has to do with it, but skipping meetings isn't very productive and never leads to a positive outcome.

As for this mess, like in any conflict, both parties tell somewhat different versions of the events and each party is fully convinced that they are the wronged party and that they didn't do anything wrong. Based on the interview and the statements, I don't think that anyone's lying. They just perceive the situation differently.

Comments on the statement:

1)

Coreplay puts all the blame on bC, as if the contract they all negotiated and signed just appeared out of the blue one day, thus dodging their responsibility for the commitment they made. I don't doubt that bC is interested in nothing but making money on CC, but Coreplay knew the publisher well, had a history with them, and signed a contract. Claiming now that they are an evil and shitty publisher is kinda ... not cool, for the lack of stronger words. Now, maybe there is more to the story, which explains the comment, but without knowing what this 'more' might be, it's hard to say for sure.

So, when people talk about 'unrealistic schedules', they should keep in mind that the schedule was mutually agreed on previously.

2)

Coreplay:

'Because of the grave differences as to the further development of the game ‘Chaos Chronicles’ and because of bitComposer’s non-payment of their contractual obligations, we had no other choice but to give notice on the contract with bitComposer in February 2013. In response bitComposer also gave notice on the contract. Therefore the contractual relationship between Coreplay and bitComposer ended in February 2013.

As we were convinced that ‘Chaos Chronicles’ would be a successful game when completed, we borrowed money from third parties and started the further development of ‘Chaos Chronicles’. However, on April 2 2013, bitComposer forced us to stop the further development of ‘Chaos Chronicles’ through a legal injunction. Later bitComposer evidently realized that this injunction was a grave mistake and withdrew it on May 21 2013, but still maintained its opinion that Coreplay was not entitled to continue developing and completing the game.'


This is childish. 'They didn't agree to pay more, so we said fine and they said fine and then we borrowed money to continue on our own.' You can't just ditch a publisher with whom you have a signed contract and who owns a chunk of your game and just go seek money elsewhere. They asked for an injunction and got it.

bC's version makes more sense here (again, the way *both* stories are told)

'After another attempt to solve the problem in March 2013, together with FFF Bayern, it was impossible to find a way to continue the project. The legal injunction was necessary, as their new lawyer and shareholder had a very unusual view of the contracts we had previously entered, and Coreplay planned to finalize and release the product without our involvement. On top of that, all other attempts to solve the situation from our side had been ignored in the meantime. The court decision was quite clear, and finally Coreplay was ready to come back to the table to find a solution. To ensure this meeting would not be influenced by the court decision, we recalled the injunction as a gesture of good will from our side.'

I'm not sure how good the German legal system is, but we can assume that the injunction was granted by a judge who looked at the documents and decided that the publisher had a proper and legal claim on the game.

3)

Coreplay does come off as a bit clueless when it comes to contracts and legal shit, so it's possible that that's where it all started. Coreplay thinks that what they are doing makes total sense, but in reality it does nothing but provokes bC.

Coreplay:

The dispute between the publisher bitComposer Entertainment AG and the developer Coreplay GmbH started in Autumn 2012 with the controversy about an early release of the game 'Chaos Chronicles' in February/March 2013. As we (Coreplay) stated then, a release at this time would lead to terrible consequences for the game regarding its quality, content, and stability. Since bitComposer refused to invest more money in ‘Chaos Chronicles”, but wanted to publish this incomplete game by February/ March 2013, we offered to develop and complete the game by June 2013 at our own cost, which of course would necessarily lead to it receiving a corresponding share of the sales revenues. bitComposer refused this proposal without putting forward any alternatives.

bC:

'The dispute started at the beginning of December 2012, when a Coreplay lawyer and investor presented a completely new contract, which was quite different from the original terms to which we had agreed. While Coreplay and their investors were ready to increase the budget from their side, they were not able to present a new milestone and budget plan showing the additional features they wanted to include. On the other hand, Coreplay did not match the originally scheduled milestones, and because of this uncertainty, we were not able to continue from our side – never mind the fact that such a change would have to be approved by the FFF Bayern. At that time, the Goldmaster was planned for January 2013, but the complete project was already behind schedule.'

I find it interesting that Coreplay's statement doesn't mention that one of their founding partners left the company (which is what bC claims), which is how the third party got involved. Now, leaving a company you founded is a very big decision, one not taken lightly. On the forums, Hobgoblin said that "he left because of the sad truth that you can't realize good games under those circumstances (small budget, little time, but many features)," which is a good reason to be pissed off but not to leave your own company.

It certainly played a role in the events (his departure, shares being sold to an aggressive third party, etc), yet Coreplay is silent on it.

Now, maybe bC's statement went through better lawyers, but it reads better and tells a believable story of a developer falling behind schedule, needing more time, but being fucked by an aggressive negotiator on the developer's end. Doesn't mean that it's true, but just that it's easy to believe.

Coreplay's statement is an emotional one (hard to blame them) and it tells a familiar story of a greedy publisher who appeared out of nowhere and pushed for an early release. Not a word about what the contract actually says, but pure emotions and general statements like 'this is what evil publishers do' and 'look at the shit they release!' Like I said, such emotions are understandable, but they don't make a strong case.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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Ok, refusing payment for delivered milestones without stating any reason is pretty subhuman. Trying to sell us an unfinished game is subhuman too.
So, it sounds like shitComposers deserve to be impaled on stakes.
Not necessarily. It could be part of Coreplay's contract that if a milestone does not meet the quality standards projected and previously discussed by them and bitComposer, bitComposer may refuse payment because they see the project is not coming along well enough. This is common even in the triple-A games industry where publishers want to have proof the developer is on schedule. It's quite possible the milestone delivered by Coreplay did not show significant progress.

Furthermore, although it sucks, I don't have much sympathy for a developer which apparently a) signs contracts with terms they have absolutely no way of fulfilling, and b) goes back to the same publisher repeatedly even though they had previously bad experiences with them on other games.
 
In My Safe Space
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Codex 2012
Coreplay's statement is an emotional one (hard to blame them) and it tells a familiar story of a greedy publisher who appeared out of nowhere and pushed for an early release. Not a word about what the contract actually says, but pure emotions and general statements like 'this is what evil publishers do' and 'look at the shit they release!' Like I said, such emotions are understandable, but they don't make a strong case.
The basic problem here is that if Coreplay would continue development as by the contract, it would be us who would have to pay for Coreplay and bC living in fantasy land where extremely complex games get always finished on time and additionally take 6 months to make.
So, for us it's a good thing that the whole thing ended in a horrible clusterfuck.

Not necessarily. It could be part of Coreplay's contract that if a milestone does not meet the quality standards projected and previously discussed by them and bitComposer, bitComposer may refuse payment because they see the project is not coming along well enough. This is common even in the triple-A games industry where publishers want to have proof the developer is on schedule. It's quite possible the milestone delivered by Coreplay did not show significant progress.
Shouldn't it be somehow communicated, to them, though?

Furthermore, although it sucks, I don't have much sympathy for a developer which apparently a) signs contracts with terms they have absolutely no way of fulfilling, and b) goes back to the same publisher repeatedly even though they had previously bad experiences with them on other games.
Which reminds me why I never bothered to treat CC seriously.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Making game is business and every publisher/investor invests HIS FUCKING MONEYZ. The money will go to salaries and things outside Coreplay's competence. So you can "scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project", it's called business plan.
No. Business plan won't work because we're talking about a creation of an extremely complex product here. With this level of complication of product it's virtually impossible to determine when it will be finished with a precision to 1-2 months.
Again, there isn't a scjenmagistic formula for calculating time of development of a complex cRPG. There's a reason why Age of Decadence is coming out "on Thursday" and Grimoire is coming "soon".
It's true that full-scale RPGs take a lot of time (and sell fuck all), which is why we don't see them anymore, as investing more into a game that would sell less is bad business. At the same time a contract is a contract and the best time to negotiate it is before it's signed not a year or two later, when it's almost time to deliver. While extensions are common, they can't be taken for granted and the burden of convincing the publisher to grant an extension and keep paying is on the developer. You can't expect the publisher to keep paying simply because complex RPGs are art.

The basic problem here is that if Coreplay would continue development as by the contract, it would be us who would have to pay for Coreplay and bC living in fantasy land where extremely complex games get always finished on time and additionally take 6 months to make.
:salute:
 

Cosmo

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Project: Eternity
Mmmh...
I hope Coreplay's not that naive and that we simply don't know every element yet...



God i needed this game. :(
 

Capitalism

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No. Business plan won't work because we're talking about a creation of an extremely complex product here. With this level of complication of product it's virtually impossible to determine when it will be finished with a precision to 1-2 months.
Most things are complex. In every industry you will find extremely complex products and good managers that can tell you how long it will really take to create something and bad managers that will lie to your face and try to milk money from you due to failing to release/create the product in time. Probably we have the case of bad management here, but it's not only publisher's fault.
Again, there isn't a scjenmagistic formula for calculating time of development of a complex cRPG. There's a reason why Age of Decadence is coming out "on Thursday" and Grimoire is coming "soon".
As I said, there is such "formula" and experienced good manager can tell you when the product will be finished. It's his job. This is not the world where you can say "it's done when it's done" without having the funds to continue development after certain date.
As for AoD or Grimoire - it's completely different story.
In TEH MONEYZ terms, if bitComposer has read the list of features of this game, their first thought should be "Oh shit, this is going to be messy" and either not fund the game or prepare for it going over budget due to slipping release dates.
Agreed. Or the scope of the game changed during development. Then we have another management failure.
Soviet mentality is ignoring reality and trying to replace it with "the plan". It doesn't matter if the game is unfinished and impossible to finish in that time. Gamers will be conned into buying it anyway.
Seriously, if there is something as Soviet mentality, it has nothing to do with what you said. Planning is everywhere from the goverment's budget to one young family. And trust me, nobody believes in plan, they just try to stick to it. Probably it's just unexplained hatred for USSR. Make another thread about it, and i will lurk it with interest.
 

Monty

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Agree with most of the comments above, but wrt the agreed timetable there was the added complication of the 'extra work' on JA expansions in 2012 which seems to have delayed the Chaos Chronicles project (in addition to the ambitious scope changes). So the original agreed date for CC was possibly unrealistic at that point. But given that they're in dispute over payments for work on both CC and JA it seems their relationship turned into a total mess where any hopes of flexibility were thrown out of the window and lawyers took over.
 

Burning Bridges

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Coreplay says that bitComposer did not paid them the agreed money, but bitComposer says that Coreplay had not reached the agreed milestone... the pay-by-milestone system is horrible, but it was what was they had signed for... no milestone, no money.

I have personally not worked under such contracts, but this must be it, basically. If they couldn't agree that milestones were fulfilled (which still allows for many interpretations whose fault it was), and began to follow rather "creative" strategies, it would explain the whole dispute. In then end, since bitcomposer wants to complete the game but does not want to give more money, and Coreplay wants to complete the game, but does not want to work for free, there is no solution. And as someone pointed out before, Coreplay will already have moved on to some other project, probably some crap like Germany's Next Top Model 2.

Are you a moron? Don't answer, you are. Making game is business and every publisher/investor invests HIS FUCKING MONEYZ. The money will go to salaries and things outside Coreplay's competence. So you can "scjenmagistically divine when exactly they will be finished at the start of the project", it's called business plan. And what it has to do with the Soviet mentality?

I also must chuckle everytime such "programming is an art" statements are made.

I must repeat myself, both publisher and developer fucked up everything and because of their dispute we won't get the game. If you want to hate evilPublisher then hate it for Citadels or almost unexisting Expeditions: Conquistador support.

It's like a divorce. No one feels guilty yet it happens.
 

Burning Bridges

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I also have yet to see proof that the game would have been any good. Who remembers "The Fall - Last Days of Gaia"?
 

CrashOberbreit

Evil Publisher
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39
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Germany
For those who think we wanted to release the game too early I'd like to quote a thing from the interview. Please note that if we, as a company, discuss about an increase of time we also mean time AND budget.

But coming back to Chaos Chronicles, we never asked to release the game ‘unfinished’ in March 2013. The only thing we asked the team was to come up with a plan for a release in January 2013 (as originally planned), one plan for March 2013, and one plan for June 2013. These plans should have included the necessary budget and the additional features/content we could expect by those dates, but these plans were never delivered, and the complete project was behind schedule already.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
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Codex USB, 2014
Can't you agree on something like, uh, miscommunication and try a new meeting..? Say, this Thursday. This Thursday, hold a meeting to discuss the future of CC with the intent of making it happen. The one party that bails on Thursday's meeting is responsible for the decline.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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Sadly, I got the feeling that at this point, the meeting would look like this:

materia-9k.jpeg
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

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Can't you agree on something like, uh, miscommunication and try a new meeting..? Say, this Thursday. This Thursday, hold a meeting to discuss the future of CC with the intent of making it happen. The one party that bails on Thursday's meeting is responsible for the decline.
That happened.

Coreplay said:
In bitComposer’s recent statements they mentioned a meeting on July 24 2013. Before this meeting took place, bitComposer had already declined to sign any agreement in this meeting. But what is the point of negotiations if one party has no intention of reaching an agreement? As we did not want to experience a repetition of the lengthy and fruitless negotiations of May 31 2013 without any outcome, we did not attend the meeting.
 

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