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DraQ

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In general it's often baffling how civilized, in the modern day sense, supposedly rough fantasy regimes tend to be.

Fantasy settings as implemented in cRPGs, even supposedly gritty and grimdark ones, are surprisingly fair, especially towards the player.

Has anyone ever seen local noble or another person in a position of power wanting the PC to hand over some sweet artifact weapon they just obtained and using all means at their disposal to get it, even attempting to murder or imprison the PC if they refuse? And why the fuck not - it's not like most of those settings are democracies, republics or even constitutional monarchies - the guy would be in the right in such case, and having to choose between becoming an outlaw through no fault of your own or giving up something that could really make the difference in your quest would make an interesting choice, especially given how organic it could be in terms of implementation.

In pretty much every cRPG you can pretty much walk into a local noble's palace, insult him, shit on his carpet and just walk out - why?

Or why can't you be wrongfully accused of something as generic mechanics instead of carefully scripted plot-hook?

Discuss!!
Other examples of bafflingly fair gameworlds welcome.
Note that I don't mean "unfair" in a way that gets the PC randumbly surprise-killed or otherwise permafucked (because that's bad game design), but anything less than that should be fair game especially if it just makes sense.

</DraQ's pet peeve #4508685467>
 

Pony King

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I'm not sure I agree. While I have some admiration for your Quixotian tilting at windmills, I don't think that it makes sense for most rulers to behave like that. While Fantasy rarely deals with it, most medieval and renaissance rulers were less than omnipotent and if they wanted to be good rulers (as in skilled and savvy) they would have to act within the fabric of their society. If the king randomly mistreats a noble he makes an enemy of all nobles. If he is dependent on adventurers and mistreats one, his dependency becomes a problem.

I do agree that fantasy is weirdly happy-go-lucky about many things. With curfews, moving around cities at night was a bad idea. Darklands deals with this but in a very lenient manner.

I'm actually playing through World of Xeen right now and it strikes me that King Burlock might be an example of a noble who (inadvertently though) shits on you by sending you on an impossible quest.


Or why can't you be wrongfully accused of something as generic mechanics instead of carefully scripted plot-hook?
Generic gameplay mechanics tend to get dull in most storycentric RPGs and most RPGs are storycentric. I could see it as a potentially interesting mechanic in a game like Darklands, where the beauty of the RPG is expressed through multitudes of generics.
It could be an overall negative event that challenges the player, but which has the potential of enriching the player since it could be easier to sneak out of a dungeon that to sneak in.


Other examples of bafflingly fair gameworlds welcome.
The multitude of inns is mostly anachronistic and somehow they always have rooms for you.
Cities are open to all visitors even though this leaves them no control over whether they are letting criminals in.
Robbers are almost always scaled to your level and have a dialogue choice to give over your valuables for larping purposes.
Have we ever gotten taxed on the kings highway?
All adventurers have super immune systems and never become bedridden from the common cold.

I hope some of these placate your draconic desire for collecting pet peeves.
 

Night Goat

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The "y u no" meme needs to go away forever. This isn't 4chan ffs.

Anyway, maybe the reason the lord doesn't demand your magical artifact has something to do with the fact that you just killed dozens of people by yourself. RPG protagonists are blatantly superhuman, and the noble's greed probably doesn't override his will to live.
 

baturinsky

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To take what is not yours is a deadly sin and dishonourable act by medieval standards. So, it was not a thing done often, even towards peasants or heathens. And you, as an elite warrior, are a member of the most privileged class in medieval society, so...
 

Zeriel

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To take what is not yours is a deadly sin and dishonourable act by medieval standards. So, it was not a thing done often, even towards peasants or heathens. And you, as an elite warrior, are a member of the most privileged class in medieval society, so...

Not openly, but "Time to be generous and donate the thing I want to me, your rightful lord liege" was pretty common.

Middle Ages, Dark Ages, and Antiquity all have one thing in common: human flaws. Sure, some lords were completely noble (lul @ that noun becoming an adjective), but many loved to exercise their authority to better themselves, materially and not. There's an endless example of Kings who shat all over individual aristocrats, while maintaining favor with the others. Like in just about every social structure in the modern world, what you really had was a continuous and complex struggle of wills, a kind of endless tug-of-war between the people who had any power, with everyone else getting perenially fucked.

And character power isn't a good excuse short of being an actual god--even the most powerful player character in D&D couldn't do shit if the emperor ordered an entire legion to buttrape them.

As with most cases where games aren't realistic, it's because what's realistic stands in the way of what is expedient, easy to implement, and fun. Sure, you can imagine some jail sequence that doesn't royally piss off the player, but it's infinitely more complex than a jail sequence that does piss off the player, which is itself plainly more work than no jail sequence at all.
 

Delterius

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To take what is not yours is a deadly sin and dishonourable act by medieval standards. So, it was not a thing done often, even towards peasants or heathens. And you, as an elite warrior, are a member of the most privileged class in medieval society, so...

On the contrary, it was done especially towards peasants because nobility had the express right of making use of their houses and food whenever they needed to. It was a dick move and the peasants complained to the church, but they couldn't do anything since a peasant doesn't even speak up unless spoken to. Hell, the church did all it could to try and keep the knights from killing the faithful but they couldn't. Let's not even talk about how the whole thing was moved by the art of pillaging thy neighbour.
 

baturinsky

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In a modern democratic country you can be shot by police "for resisting arrest" or thrown in torture prison without a trial as a "terrorist suspect". And this happens. But it does not means that it i normal or done easily and without backlash.

Medieval society was, of cause, much more violent and segregated and laws was much less strict and enforced. But it consisted of the same people and was running on same basic social laws.

So, DraQ's scenario is totally possible, but I don't thing it would be a usual occurance.
 

crazyirish

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Nice to see so many medieval sociologists weigh in here. I personally couldn't agree more.
 

Gregz

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The answer is that it wouldn't be fun.

Games are supposed to be fun.

In pretty much every cRPG you can pretty much walk into a local noble's palace, insult him, shit on his carpet and just walk out - why?

Based on what I've seen here, most Codexians would consider that fun also.
 

JarlFrank

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Walking into a local noble's palace, insulting him, shitting on his carpet and finding yourself hunted by the military and officially outlawed on the next day would be much more fun than just walking out without consequence.

Or have the noble destroy your reputation among his peers. Good luck finding employment with other nobles when they know you like shitting on their carpets while flinging insults at them, their wives and their lineage.

Also, when you find archaeological treasures even in the modern day, either the state or the owner of whatever piece of land you found it on will come and say "Hey, that belongs to me because it was buried in MY land so of course it's mine not yours. Hand it over. The law is on my side." You might get paid a reward but the item isn't yours by right.
 

baturinsky

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Isn't it fairly common in RPGs to aggro NPCS by one line of text, taking something not yours or just being where you were not supposed to be?
 

JarlFrank

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More sensible consequences than I WILL FIGHT YOU TO THE DEATH BECAUSE YOU STOLE AN EMPTY PIECE OF PAPER THAT LAY ON MY DESK would be a welcome change, however.
 

Zeriel

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More sensible consequences than I WILL FIGHT YOU TO THE DEATH BECAUSE YOU STOLE AN EMPTY PIECE OF PAPER THAT LAY ON MY DESK would be a welcome change, however.

Systemic mechanics vs. scripted one-offs. Scripted one-offs can be cool, but only once, so I'd say systemic is generally better.
 

JarlFrank

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More sensible consequences than I WILL FIGHT YOU TO THE DEATH BECAUSE YOU STOLE AN EMPTY PIECE OF PAPER THAT LAY ON MY DESK would be a welcome change, however.

Systemic mechanics vs. scripted one-offs. Scripted one-offs can be cool, but only once, so I'd say systemic is generally better.

There can be systemic consequences that are less idiotic than peasants going raging berserk mode against a well-armoured warrior because of a stolen wooden fork. See Elder Scrolls crime and punishment systems (but even there, people go berserk when they catch you stealing as much as a feather off their pillow)
 

Damned Registrations

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And character power isn't a good excuse short of being an actual god--even the most powerful player character in D&D couldn't do shit if the emperor ordered an entire legion to buttrape them.
Kind of a bad example, since the most powerful DnD PCs can do things like teleport away to their fortress of solitude, take a nap, then teleport into the emperor's lap, summon a 40' tall demon from another plane, and watch as it tears apart the palace while anything short of a seige weapon bounces off it. And even a fighter can gut dozens if not hundreds of soldiers before even being noticably wounded, which would tank their morale pretty fast. So the imperial legions aren't much of a threat unless they're undead.

Edit: That said, this wouldn't apply if the emperor was also a level 20 adventurer of some sort, which should be the case a lot more often than it usually is. You'd think most of the upper class would be comprised of retired adventurers, with all the monsters and evil adventurers running around killing and stealing from people in general, simple aristocrats would rapidly become either dead or penniless after hiring bodyguards.
 
Last edited:

tuluse

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Kind of a bad example, since the most powerful DnD PCs can do things like teleport away to their fortress of solitude, take a nap, then teleport into the emperor's lap, summon a 40' tall demon from another plane, and watch as it tears apart the palace while anything short of a seige weapon bounces off it. And even a fighter can gut dozens if not hundreds of soldiers before even being noticably wounded, which would tank their morale pretty fast. So the imperial legions aren't much of a threat unless they're undead.

Edit: That said, this wouldn't apply if the emperor was also a level 20 adventurer of some sort, which should be the case a lot more often than it usually is. You'd think most of the upper class would be comprised of retired adventurers, with all the monsters and evil adventurers running around killing and stealing from people in general, simple aristocrats would rapidly become either dead or penniless after hiring bodyguards.
In real life nobles were not the most powerful combatants. Why would this change just because the combatants have more power?
 

Damned Registrations

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Because in real life the most powerful combatants could get their asses handed to them by 2 guys of far inferior skill. In DnD the most powerful combatants can raze entire cities by themselves. Retired adventurers should be nobles for the same reason dragons have giant treasure hordes- because no number of peasants with bows are going to stop them from doing whatever the fuck they want. The only thing that would stop them would be other adventurers, who aren't going to go slay other dragon slayers for less money than they'd get for slaying a dragon.
 

JarlFrank

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Kind of a bad example, since the most powerful DnD PCs can do things like teleport away to their fortress of solitude, take a nap, then teleport into the emperor's lap, summon a 40' tall demon from another plane, and watch as it tears apart the palace while anything short of a seige weapon bounces off it. And even a fighter can gut dozens if not hundreds of soldiers before even being noticably wounded, which would tank their morale pretty fast. So the imperial legions aren't much of a threat unless they're undead.

Edit: That said, this wouldn't apply if the emperor was also a level 20 adventurer of some sort, which should be the case a lot more often than it usually is. You'd think most of the upper class would be comprised of retired adventurers, with all the monsters and evil adventurers running around killing and stealing from people in general, simple aristocrats would rapidly become either dead or penniless after hiring bodyguards.
In real life nobles were not the most powerful combatants. Why would this change just because the combatants have more power?

In the early middle ages (Merovingian, Carolingian, also Ottonian eras) nobles were actually warriors, specialized knights who are trained for combat and form the king's retinue. And the king was also a trained warrior.

More fantasy settings should be early middle ages based. Nobility based on combat proficiency, getting rich by pillaging the fuck out of the king's enemies (or their neighbours).
 

DraQ

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If he is dependent on adventurers and mistreats one, his dependency becomes a problem.
That depends on how he's dependent on them.

Technically he is dependent on peasants as well, yet no one ever had any problem with mistreating them (until they revolted, that is - then it could get messy).
If adventurers are dime a dozen (which is typically the case if you want your usual adventure-marts around), are basically murderhobos (which they are, at least until late stages of their careers, which very few reach - most either die, change profession to something cozier and less risky - after taking an arrow to the knee, typically - or wisely retire with whatever they have scrounged up), and you only allow them wandering around because they can be handy at times and/or regulating/culling them would be too much of a hassle/hard to accomplish (kind of like rats of cockroaches).

And if you are an actual knight or something there is a lot of strings attached and loyalty is among them.

Or why can't you be wrongfully accused of something as generic mechanics instead of carefully scripted plot-hook?
Generic gameplay mechanics tend to get dull in most storycentric RPGs and most RPGs are storycentric.
Storycentric is neither the only nor necessarily the best way to make a cRPG.

Sure, you may make a PS:T if you do it horribly right, but even then any C&C you'll have will be limited, making the game replayable maybe around 7 4 times, require disproportional development effort, and generally won't be very robust.

Even if you do make a storycentric game, you can benefit from handling a lot of stuff systemically and faction/reputation system is one of the biggies here - one of the most obvious candidates.

And if characters in a position of power are allowed to use various methods to deal with people they dislike, and allowed to start disliking people for various things, then you have generic mechanics that is robust, demands limited effort to implement pretty much arbitrary number of "noble gets pissed off" variants, and isn't a singular quest hook that's easily avoided and can be looked up in a wiki.

Robbers are almost always scaled to your level and have a dialogue choice to give over your valuables for larping purposes.
Well, this is one of the areas where you unfortunately need to make concessions - getting surprise quarrel in the face and then having your corpse picked clean of valuables wouldn't make much of interesting gameplay, so it's only as much of an option as it can be mitigated by player's behaviour - vigilance, preparation, caution, etc.
The "y u no" meme needs to go away forever. This isn't 4chan ffs.
Night Goat , Y U NO APPRECIATE MEMES?
:troll:

Anyway, maybe the reason the lord doesn't demand your magical artifact has something to do with the fact that you just killed dozens of people by yourself. RPG protagonists are blatantly superhuman, and the noble's greed probably doesn't override his will to live.
And this shit needs to go as well.
Besides, if the protagonist is supposed to be this powerful, any noble should scurry the fuck away the moment you set foot in their castle.

:troll:

To take what is not yours is a deadly sin and dishonourable act by medieval standards.
:hmmm:
Like it ever fucking stopped someone in a position of power.
And you, as an elite warrior, are a member of the most privileged class in medieval society, so...
If by "elite warrior" you mean "murderhobo" and by "most privileged class" you mean "not really".

And even if you grow in power and privilege, it's not like you're safe from plots of other privileged fucks, and unlike theirs your position and powerbase isn't as well cemented.

Not openly, but "Time to be generous and donate the thing I want to me, your rightful lord liege" was pretty common.
Hell, the lord might even want to pay you off (and fairly too), it's just that you wouldn't really have any way to decline without serious consequences.

Middle Ages, Dark Ages, and Antiquity all have one thing in common: human flaws. Sure, some lords were completely noble (lul @ that noun becoming an adjective), but many loved to exercise their authority to better themselves, materially and not. There's an endless example of Kings who shat all over individual aristocrats, while maintaining favor with the others. Like in just about every social structure in the modern world, what you really had was a continuous and complex struggle of wills, a kind of endless tug-of-war between the people who had any power, with everyone else getting perenially fucked.
:bro:


Walking into a local noble's palace, insulting him, shitting on his carpet and finding yourself hunted by the military and officially outlawed on the next day would be much more fun than just walking out without consequence.

Or have the noble destroy your reputation among his peers. Good luck finding employment with other nobles when they know you like shitting on their carpets while flinging insults at them, their wives and their lineage.

Also, when you find archaeological treasures even in the modern day, either the state or the owner of whatever piece of land you found it on will come and say "Hey, that belongs to me because it was buried in MY land so of course it's mine not yours. Hand it over. The law is on my side." You might get paid a reward but the item isn't yours by right.
This. And losing some sweet, unique item of power VS pretty much losing ability to go about your business with any degree of openness and legitimacy in a good chunk of the gameworld (both permanently) would make for some sweet C&C - massive impact on gameplay without requirements for massive scripting (because it would pretty much be handled by crime system).

Damned Registrations ,
I think a good cRPG should take a little from column A, a little from column B.
On one hand sheer numbers, especially combined with coordination, discipline and use of ranged weapons should be able to fuck even the most skilled combatant, and even the most powerful wizard should die like any other man if stabbed in the throat.
On the other, in a setting where a powerful mage can literally fart demons and high level warriors can do retardedly heroic shit too, nobles should either be no slouches thmselves or have trusted/well paid people who are perfectly capable of doing the same (backed up by the aforementioned armies of mooks, just to be sure).

In any case, powers that be should be able to fuck player up, else they wouldn't be in the position of power.
 

JarlFrank

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In any case, powers that be should be able to fuck player up, else they wouldn't be in the position of power.

Fucking exactly.
Any time in history where the powers that be stopped to be able to fuck up anyone threatening their sovereignty, they stopped being the powers that be and became the powers that were, suddenly replaced by powers more capable of upfucking.
In a fantasy setting, if there is a guy who can kill 5 knights at once in close combat, he's going to be the fucking king in no time at all, with all the knights and nobles swearing loyalty to him because badassery of that magnitude is something knights respect. If there's a wizard who can annihilate cities with a mere word and gesture, he's going to become a magocrat in no time because who would NOT submit to a guy who can turn a city into a ruin entirely on his own?

Those in power have ways to stay in power, else they would not be in power anymore. A king with a weak position will have lots of potential usurpers among his nobility. A wizard-lord whose power is bested by other wizards might get challenged to a magical duel over his position.

Either those in power will always be able to fuck up the player, who is a nobody, either on their own or by having the loyalty of a fuckload of people (who might also be powerful in their own right), or if they are weak there will already be others trying to get into their position, which might lead to a lot of quest offers for the player who, as an adventurer, is basically a usurpation-helper-for-hire.
 

tuluse

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If there is a single wizard who can destroy whole cities, he'll be the ruler.

However, if there are a dozen or a hundred, that doesn't happen.

Oppenheimer wasn't president of the world. Putin isn't the strongest man in Russia.
 

Damned Registrations

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There's also the differences that aren't measured in simple numbers. An army of mooks can't stop an invisible wizard any more than a guy with a handgun (or 5 million guys with expensive sniper rifles and years of training) can stop a submarine. A rogue that can disguise himself so well he could fool the army into thinking he's their king, let alone simply not the guy they're after, has little to fear in terms of reprisal for his actions. And so forth. To find that rogue you need a wizard with powerful divination magic, and said wizard needs a better reason to leave his laboratory (only accessible via flight atop a mountain) than a threat like 'the king is gonna send guys with bows to shoot arrows at your stone walls until you kill them all'.

Something like shadowrun works more like what you want; even really powerful characters are still totally fucked vs enough goons with high powered weapons. So that kind of setting can support someone in a position of power through money alone. There's significant risk and no reward for fighting ~20 guys with machineguns, while OTOH, there's no real risk for fighting ~20 guys with longbows. A level 5ish party would attack first and kill half of them before they could even fire. And the ones that did fire might land 1 or 2 arrows before being wiped out, which would be healed by a single spell. You'd need more like 50 or 100 to pose a threat, and even then, a level 5 wizard could kill dozens of them with a single spell if they were grouped up, and a fighter with a more powerful bow and better riding skills could stay ahead of them and pick them off until he needed to sleep. Which would be longer than the horses, so they'd never be able to catch him. Make it a level 10 party and you're in the realm of shit like flying carpets, winged mounts, and the wizard can build his own castle given a couple weeks (complete with about 20 skeleton guards with 0 upkeep who never sleep). Meanwhile in shadowrun it's entirely plausible for 20 guys to pop out of a vehicle wherever the runners go, or even bring to bear shit like grenade launchers. Even stupidly powerful combat characters like cybered trolls can't shrug off an attack like that.
 

Abelian

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In a world of neatly segregated quests and frequently applied plot funnels it doesn't really matter if you fall for a lie. It may put you at disadvantage, it may have some consequences, but in the end you're still fed your share of content, the popagonist thrives after being duped or maybe even if you don't fall for the deception, the villain has a plan B prepared landing you in the same spot in the end (see Koveras). Hell, sometimes you don't even have an option to not fall for a deception.
In such world, you simply have no reason to be extra careful or suspicious even to the point of paranoia - even if you fuck up, the net result will often be positive (you get extra XP or loot for dealing with the trouble you brought upon yourself, or, at the very least content), and even if negative, the repercussions will be contained, they won't really affect your game as a whole.

What I would love to see is a game where quests, those artificial game-y entities, intermesh and intertwine and where getting duped might have enough of an impact on your game and playstyle it allows, that you might be better off refusing quests you aren't absolutely sure of.
I quoted this passage from another thread because I see it as another good idea that would make the game more challenging to the player, but can be avoided through save-scumming. If the game will impose any penalties to the player's actions, they need to be lenient enough as the player doesn't reload and pick the optimal course of action.

In terms of the AI being unfair towards the player, I think strategy games do a better job, since the game isn't centered around the player like in RPG's. In the Civilization games, you could have the AI decide to attack you out of the blue or attempt to coerce the player in giving away technology or resources.

CK2 does a good job in modeling medieval C&C: you can make dickish moves like revoking a vassal's title, but he might rebel and summon other nobles to his cause. Likewise, you can unjustly imprison any vassal, but the rest will dislike you and there's a chance the prisoner will evade arrest and rebel. Assassination attempts might fail and declaring war after signing a truce is allowable, but your prestige takes a big hit. Also, the AI will have no qualms about rebelling or invading while you're distracted by another war.
 

DraQ

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In a world of neatly segregated quests and frequently applied plot funnels it doesn't really matter if you fall for a lie. It may put you at disadvantage, it may have some consequences, but in the end you're still fed your share of content, the popagonist thrives after being duped or maybe even if you don't fall for the deception, the villain has a plan B prepared landing you in the same spot in the end (see Koveras). Hell, sometimes you don't even have an option to not fall for a deception.
In such world, you simply have no reason to be extra careful or suspicious even to the point of paranoia - even if you fuck up, the net result will often be positive (you get extra XP or loot for dealing with the trouble you brought upon yourself, or, at the very least content), and even if negative, the repercussions will be contained, they won't really affect your game as a whole.

What I would love to see is a game where quests, those artificial game-y entities, intermesh and intertwine and where getting duped might have enough of an impact on your game and playstyle it allows, that you might be better off refusing quests you aren't absolutely sure of.
I quoted this passage from another thread because I see it as another good idea that would make the game more challenging to the player, but can be avoided through save-scumming. If the game will impose any penalties to the player's actions, they need to be lenient enough as the player doesn't reload and pick the optimal course of action.
Well, I was indeed thinking of both issues together when writing those posts.

Avoidance through save scumming can be blocked by delaying the moment player can learn they've fucked up just like avoidance through reading wiki can be blocked by randomization of actual in-game events or making the problem deeply ingrained in game's system and the avoidance non-trivial.

Anyway, the idea isn't to screw player over, the idea is to block player's options and force player to accommodate playstyle they may not be comfortable with and which they possibly haven't intended for their character, and make this consequence stick.
For example being outlawed in a significant portion of the gameworld won't make the game unfinishable and may not necessarily reduce the net amount of content. It does, however deprive player of choice regarding certain aspect of the gameplay and the exact content available, and thus it can hit player where it hurts - for example by forcing his noble paladin kind of hero into contacts and some cooperation with underworld (note: that doesn't imply respeccing into sneakthief) to survive and progress after getting branded outlaw, forcing them to avoid certain encounters and quest opportunities due to need to keep low profile and so on.
And yes, it does apply to falling to NPC deception as well. Getting some momentary extra challenge that immediately pays for itself via loot and XP, or at least goes away after being defeated does not a consequence make.

In terms of the AI being unfair towards the player, I think strategy games do a better job, since the game isn't centered around the player like in RPG's.
Yes, but they are whole different beast and a cRPG doesn't necessarily need to kiss player's ass all the time.
 

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