Cyberpunk 2077 Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Gargaune]

Really annoys me that so many cyberpunk developers out there for many games didn't seem to understand the point of Molly Millions in Neuromancer and Johnny Mnemonic.
Her entire approach is that she intentionally made herself look like a freak because it meant she was a more effective killing machine. Less a means of status symbol and more a means of survival.
We compare it to Anna and Gunther from Deus Ex and they applied that same mentality as well. Based on the background lore we believe Anna and Gunther got augmentations because they felt their fleshy parts made them less effective in combat. They are annoyed by nano-augmentation because it meant better combat effectiveness without sacrifice so they resent the fact that they did this to themselves for practically no benefit.

The only characters in Deus Ex 1 with mechanical augs are all ex-unatco which is why it being societal widespread in HR made absolutely no sense at all.
CP 2020's universe is that Cyberware is an extension of Fashion and thus a status symbol. To be honest though that always annoyed me because it meant most of the poorest people made no sense to have them yet we can clearly see CDProjekt practically everyone has them.
I think much like HR they over did it.

Yeah, with DX3, the Montreal crew switched much of the focus from labour pressures to unhinged consumerism, and they executed well on portraying that concept (unlike the TCP rabies in the finale), but the premise itself is much harder to swallow. The discrepancy best stuck with me in the form of two incidental scenes, both tackling "buyer's remorse" in their respective circumstances.

In the first game, you can find that "anonymous" e-mail from Gunther where he rails against the new nano-augmented agents in UNATCO, which threaten to render his sacrifices obsolete, and he ends with asking "What about my legs?!"

In HR, there's this instance I distinctly remember from a hotel when you approach a closed door and you overhear an argument between a couple are fighting over infidelity. She's crying that she just wanted to be with somebody "normal" again, but that only makes him angrier because "it was [her] idea to get enhanced!"

Two brilliant side-bits which underline the irreversible severity of what these people have put themselves through in "augmentation", but they illustrate very different reasons for doing so. In the original Deus Ex it's primarily a matter of substance, whereas in Eidos Montreal's reboot, style is the more emphasized concept.

The Cyberpunk material, unfortunately, appears to be the latter on steroids.

 

[TempleOfArcanumBloodlines]

Maybe it was actually a reference to all the bullet sponge in the combat. Fuck, this thing's gonna need mods.


You'd better be able to turn off the minimap altogether. In fact, the whole HUD should be have toggles and fade options. Deus Ex 4 did it right.

that would be good, you'd hope they don't have less UI options than they did in W3. i also hope you can turn the dots/quest target from appearing in your vision like you see the "fingers clinic" at this point in the vid:
https://youtu.be/4yQ--nrwy5w?t=364

i don't mind seeing a dot on the main map but don't want any of that other stuff directing me exactly where to go

 

[AwesomeButton]

I love reading those DUMBFUCK YouTube comments on that latest video posted. "Why are the streets so empty?

I don't know where this originated, but talking about crowd density is now an indispensible sign of being a Cyberpunk connoisseur.

 

[Harthwain]

I love reading those DUMBFUCK YouTube comments on that latest video posted. "Why are the streets so empty?

I don't know where this originated, but talking about crowd density is now an indispensible sign of being a Cyberpunk connoisseur.

Pretty sure the main reason was this:

Spoiler

 

[Naraya]

I love reading those DUMBFUCK YouTube comments on that latest video posted. "Why are the streets so empty?

I don't know where this originated, but talking about crowd density is now an indispensible sign of being a Cyberpunk connoisseur.

Pretty sure the main reason was this:

Spoiler

That's why they put a giant ass SUBJECT TO CHANGE disclaimer in their E3 trailer. And still - people freak out.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I love reading those DUMBFUCK YouTube comments on that latest video posted. "Why are the streets so empty?

I don't know where this originated, but talking about crowd density is now an indispensible sign of being a Cyberpunk connoisseur.

Pretty sure the main reason was this:

Spoiler

No, I don't mean where the expectation originated from, but where did the idea that parroting the same comment makes one an authority originate from. If you've played Witcher 3 you know Novigrad has far bigger crowds than anything seen in Cyberpunk so far, and you can take that as an indication of what's the baseline density of NPCs for Cyberpunk.

If someone has actually played Witcher 3, its options on PC at least, have a slider called "Number of Background Characters". This slider controls - surprise - the density of background NPCs. Since shill youtubers and the doomsayers are equally uninformed and all talk out of their asses, nobody has mentioned it. Any reason to expect such controls not to exist in Cyberpunk on PC - I think not. Any reason this setting would not be set to a low value for consoles, esp before the next gen update - I think it is actually to be expected. Would it be pleasant if CDPR went out and said "well we kranked this option down for consoles" - sure they wouldn't do that before release and before reviewers spot it.

So, there, that's why the "experts" on crowd density are only to be laughed at.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Otherwise, if you're talking about "performance enhancement", why would someone only replace their left arm?

Really annoys me that so many cyberpunk developers out there for many games didn't seem to understand the point of Molly Millions in Neuromancer and Johnny Mnemonic.
Her entire approach is that she intentionally made herself look like a freak because it meant she was a more effective killing machine. Less a means of status symbol and more a means of survival.
We compare it to Anna and Gunther from Deus Ex and they applied that same mentality as well. Based on the background lore we believe Anna and Gunther got augmentations because they felt their fleshy parts made them less effective in combat. They are annoyed by nano-augmentation because it meant better combat effectiveness without sacrifice so they resent the fact that they did this to themselves for practically no benefit.

The only characters in Deus Ex 1 with mechanical augs are all ex-unatco which is why it being societal widespread in HR made absolutely no sense at all.
CP 2020's universe is that Cyberware is an extension of Fashion and thus a status symbol. To be honest though that always annoyed me because it meant most of the poorest people made no sense to have them yet we can clearly see CDProjekt practically everyone has them.
I think much like HR they over did it.

Eh, I don't really see the big deal. Look at something like tattoos, gauged ears, (which was in in the early 2000s, when out, and now seems to be coming back) and body modification shit. People getting tattoos was something people really didnt do in the early '90s, it was like criminals, cops, firemen, military, and truckers only. Now people working normal jobs have sleeves, tattoos sleeves, not normal sleeves on their shirts. When I watch Rosemary's Baby now, I wonder: Will anyone under a certain age get that the reveal that the old guy had a pierced ear shows something is off and weird about this guy? So in Cyberpunk 2020 people did weird body mod stuff to themselves because they can, doesn't seem to strange; and it definitely seems less strange today than it would in the '80s.

Poor people spending money on shit they can't afford isn't exactly a new thing.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

I love reading those DUMBFUCK YouTube comments on that latest video posted. "Why are the streets so empty?

I don't know where this originated, but talking about crowd density is now an indispensible sign of being a Cyberpunk connoisseur.

 

[T.Ashpool]

The Cyberpunk material, unfortunately, appears to be the latter on steroids.

you mean on hrt

 

[Danikas]

I love reading those DUMBFUCK YouTube comments on that latest video posted. "Why are the streets so empty?

I don't know where this originated, but talking about crowd density is now an indispensible sign of being a Cyberpunk connoisseur.

 

[Ol' Willy]

The only characters in Deus Ex 1 with mechanical augs are all ex-unatco which is why it being societal widespread in HR made absolutely no sense at all.
CP 2020's universe is that Cyberware is an extension of Fashion and thus a status symbol. To be honest though that always annoyed me because it meant most of the poorest people made no sense to have them yet we can clearly see CDProjekt practically everyone has them.
I think much like HR they over did it.

HR is a finest example of cargo cult and not understanding the issue at all. Who will benefit from augs? Professional soldiers, cops maybe, crippled and deformed - i.e., those who need augs in their field of work and those who need replacement limbs and organs. Your average office hamster won't be getting himself a robotic arm or a pair of augmented eyes. In a fairy tale of HR, and most likely in CP77, people treat augs as simple body mods - eh, "is there a difference between robotic hand and tattoo sleeve?" "Daughter, do you want a new set of earrigns or a pair of robotic legs for your birthday?"

"We are making cyberpunk setting and so we should have people with augs", it's like they have a checklist and just cross of the "requisite" entries.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm gonna get a back-mounted jet pack when we start living in the transhumanist future. I don't care that I don't need it for day-to-day life.

 

[Hace El Oso]

Eh, I don't really see the big deal. Look at something like tattoos, gauged ears, (which was in in the early 2000s, when out, and now seems to be coming back) and body modification shit. People getting tattoos was something people really didnt do in the early '90s, it was like criminals, cops, firemen, military, and truckers only. Now people working normal jobs have sleeves, tattoos sleeves, not normal sleeves on their shirts. When I watch Rosemary's Baby now, I wonder: Will anyone under a certain age get that the reveal that the old guy had a pierced ear shows something is off and weird about this guy? So in Cyberpunk 2020 people did weird body mod stuff to themselves because they can, doesn't seem to strange; and it definitely seems less strange today than it would in the '80s.

Poor people spending money on shit they can't afford isn't exactly a new thing.

Because it's much more interesting to depict what is likely to be the reality of cybernetics, genetic modification and augmentation: the only people who get these things will be the middle class who are employed in professions that demand it(military, police, specialized technicians like pilots and divers) and the ruling class who will use them to become the Übermensch. Being 'unmodified' will be a marker for being low-class or a religious holdout.

HR is a finest example of cargo cult and not understanding the issue at all. Who will benefit from augs? Professional soldiers, cops maybe, crippled and deformed - i.e., those who need augs in their field of work and those who need replacement limbs and organs. Your average office hamster won't be getting himself a robotic arm or a pair of augmented eyes. In a fairy tale of HR, and most likely in CP77, people treat augs as simple body mods - eh, "is there a difference between robotic hand and tattoo sleeve?" "Daughter, do you want a new set of earrigns or a pair of robotic legs for your birthday?"

"We are making cyberpunk setting and so we should have people with augs", it's like they have a checklist and just cross of the "requisite" entries.

Exactly correct.

 

[Gargaune]

These are different games. The sequel was made for profit. The first one, they had some clue how to make it.

I don't think that's the case in this matter. DX3's take on augmentations was clearly the result of a bunch of writers excited at making their own commentary on the ills of the world, the problem is that they got so excited that they didn't realise their concept was much less relatable than the original.

Eh, I don't really see the big deal. Look at something like tattoos, gauged ears, (which was in in the early 2000s, when out, and now seems to be coming back) and body modification shit. People getting tattoos was something people really didnt do in the early '90s, it was like criminals, cops, firemen, military, and truckers only. Now people working normal jobs have sleeves, tattoos sleeves, not normal sleeves on their shirts.

I've considered that argument myself, tons of people today scribble stupid bullshit into their skin or they ruin their earlobes as a matter of fashion, in a volume that would've been outlandish back in the 90s. But I'm still not onboard because a prosthetic limb isn't just an item of style, it has substance, it is functional - if it breaks down or you're prevented from using it (DX4), you're up shit creek. Is it plausible that some people would do it regardless? Yeah, sure, plenty even. But it beggars belief that every other guy on the street would be sporting a chrome bicep. Adding stuff, like an intracranial modem which you could later, conceivably, chuck out and move on, yes, that could work as a mass product, but replacing organs is a hard sell. It's certainly less believable than DX's original fiction, where this sort of thing was driven by need and mostly restricted to relevant medical or professional applications.

Like I said, it's not a show-stopper, we've got plenty of games with more garish premises, but it does make it harder to buy into. Then again, if we want to crawl high enough up our own assholes with the meta-analysis, style is the substance of marketing, so we shouldn't be surprised that a game called "Cyberpunk" prioritises visual identity over verisimilitude.

 

[Saerain]

Eh, I don't really see the big deal. Look at something like tattoos, gauged ears, (which was in in the early 2000s, when out, and now seems to be coming back) and body modification shit. People getting tattoos was something people really didnt do in the early '90s, it was like criminals, cops, firemen, military, and truckers only. Now people working normal jobs have sleeves, tattoos sleeves, not normal sleeves on their shirts. When I watch Rosemary's Baby now, I wonder: Will anyone under a certain age get that the reveal that the old guy had a pierced ear shows something is off and weird about this guy? So in Cyberpunk 2020 people did weird body mod stuff to themselves because they can, doesn't seem to strange; and it definitely seems less strange today than it would in the '80s.

Poor people spending money on shit they can't afford isn't exactly a new thing.

Because it's much more interesting to depict what is likely to be the reality of cybernetics, genetic modification and augmentation: the only people who get these things will be the middle class who are employed in professions that demand it(military, police, specialized technicians like pilots and divers) and the ruling class who will use them to become the Übermensch. Being 'unmodified' will be a marker for being low-class or a religious holdout.

As long as we're talking reality, gaps like that keep getting shorter and shorter in duration as the pace of new tech accelerates. The lower class adopting what the rich beta tested 15 years ago, 12, 6, 2...

 

[moon knight]

Is there some technical reason these open world games can't use crowd simulations?

The crowds in Hitman are mostly stationary and react badly to events happening around them

 

[RobotSquirrel]

Poor people spending money on shit they can't afford isn't exactly a new thing.

yeah but we're not talking a $1,000 iphone here. Getting auged would costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and require years of maintenance. That's why it doesn't make sense to have the poor with them.
Criminals yes but your average poor no. That's where CP 2020's universe got it pretty wrong and where CDProjekt could've fixed it but instead pushed it overboard to a ridiculous extreme where now practically everyone has them.
Now watch them spin it gameplay mechanic wise so that you'll have to grind for them.

Shadowrun similar to Deus Ex did it right because there is a blatant consequence for getting auged thus not everyone will do it.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Being 'unmodified' will be a marker for being low-class or a religious holdout.

Rich people don't need augmented eyes or robotic legs. As seen in some works by PKD and Gibson, rich people would rather buy replacement internal organs so they can live even longer, 150 or 200 years. Heart starts to struggle? Replace it! Liver is almost done? Buy new one! Thus, the vivid contrast is shown: when rich people buy themselves new organs and live well past 100 years, poor ones die from crime and diseases, and lucky to see their 60th birthday.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Being 'unmodified' will be a marker for being low-class or a religious holdout.

Rich people don't need augmented eyes or robotic legs. As seen in some works by PKD and Gibson, rich people would rather buy replacement internal organs so they can live even longer, 150 or 200 years. Heart starts to struggle? Replace it! Liver is almost done? Buy new one! Thus, the vivid contrast is shown: when rich people buy themselves new organs and live well past 100 years, poor ones die from crime and diseases, and lucky to see their 60th birthday.

I agree and give more examples.

Thinking everyone would jump at augs may be oversimplifying things. I think it's a lifestyle and status token whose meaning would evolve over time.

Take cellphones as an example again - in the dawn of cellphones it was a big deal having one and it was a status symbol. As time passes, and smartphones are ubiquitous, one's level of dependency on the gadget is beginning to be viewed negatively. I expect we'll reach an age where *having* gadgets will be the mark of a pleb, because they are indispensible for the plebs in their work and their entertainment, while not needing one will have come to signify being above the crowd.

Remember the old meme about being overjoyed at chocolate and soda as a kid and hating vegetables, and then later, as a young adult, being overjoyed at "healthy food" while shunning "junk food".

rich people would rather buy replacement internal organs so they can live even longer, 150 or 200 years

I've never read PKD but this matches exactly with the trend I expect to see. It will be something like in Gataka - those with the means to, will cut biological and genetical corners in order to improve their longevity and beauty in the least intrusive ways available, not turn themselves into mechs.

 

[Harthwain]

yeah but we're not talking a $1,000 iphone here. Getting auged would costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and require years of maintenance. That's why it doesn't make sense to have the poor with them.

You're wrong about the premise:

One of the stories I shared with Pondsmith was far more mundane but it helped me to get to the heart of what Cyberpunk means to him. We met at Gamelab in Barcelona and a couple of weeks earlier, right before E3, my phone had died. I had to buy a replacement in the airport before the flight out to Los Angeles and anyone who has been on the verge of a long trip and finds themselves suddenly without their most-treasured gadget can no doubt sympathise. Without it, I didn’t have access to maps, hotel details, contact numbers and emails for appointments, or even the boarding pass for my flight. It’s only when I’m suddenly without a phone that I realise how much I need it.

I mentioned this to Pondsmith as we were talking about anxieties around reliance on technology and I used my former phone as a convenient example.

“But what did you do?” He asked.

“I bought a new phone. I had to.”

“That’s cyberpunk. It’s not just about the tech, it’s about the ubiquity of the tech. If augmentations are rare, if they make the people who have them special, that’s not cyberpunk. It has to be street level. It has to be everywhere and available to almost everyone.”

The phone anecdote might have triggered this central idea about cyberpunk, but before we dug into body horror, the ubiquity of tech, and real world social and political parallels, we spent some time discussing exactly what CD Projekt Red are doing with Pondsmith’s fictional future, and how he’s contributing to the game.

[...]

“I like a lot of the things that are going on there but the main characters are special because of the technology so it’s very far from street-level cyberpunk. The tech shouldn’t make you a hero, it should just be a part of ordinary life.”

This bring us back to my dead phone and the ubiquity of technologies that were so recently unimaginably powerful.

“If you lose your phone, or it dies, then you just replace it.” Pondsmith says, waving around his own smartphone, which is currently pinging him real-time information about seismic activity somewhere in South America. “I’m plugged into the planet with this thing. That’s how amazing it is, but the tech is everywhere. It took me about an hour at most to re-establish everything that had been on my old phone on this one when I bought it. Information and preferences are easily transferable.”

I think there’s a deeper issue though: even if I can replace the phone, I don’t control the networks and the satellites that allow the phone to operate. So much of the power isn’t in the phone, it’s in the access that the phone has, and that is not replaceable. Not by me at any rate. If my provider cuts me off from data and telecommunications networks, I own a very expensive brick that can play match-3 games.

 

[Paul_cz]

Is there some technical reason these open world games can't use crowd simulations?

Crowds in Blood Money were amazing, but it is all smoke and mirrors, few models recycled all doing the same thing with no AI present. The illusion breaks down immediately when interacting with them. Not what you want in an RPG.

 

[Lacrymas]

How humans become replaceable is a good theme for a cyberpunk setting. Also, if you replace your body, can you just as easily replace your soul?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Also, if you replace your body, can you just as easily replace your soul?

I doubt that Cyberpunk 2077 deals with such metaphysical issues as the supposed existence of a 'soul'.

 

[MasPingon]

Also, if you replace your body, can you just as easily replace your soul?

I doubt that Cyberpunk 2077 deals with such metaphysical issues as the supposed existence of a 'soul'.

That will be a main theme of this game.

 

[Harthwain]

Also, if you replace your body, can you just as easily replace your soul?

Not in PnP Cyberpunk. The whole point of cyberpsychosis is you lose control if you go beyond your humanity limit. And I don't mean just losing control from time to time: I mean you have to hand over your character to the GM as it becomes an NPC. But it won't be possible to happen to the player in Cyberpunk 2077 for some plot reasons, all we can expect is some hard limit on how many augs you can put together and that will be it.