Cyberpunk 2077 Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Zer0wing]

I haven't played SR94.

I just laid it all out why so you don't have to. Also juicy (nuyen juicy) runs just gated with impossible encounters unless your character is leveled (stats and skills, there are no conventional levels) and geared up to the task

VtM:B, of course, has no procedurally generated content. So how does it strengthen your argument that no proc gen content ---> out of balance economy?

It was a more of a general question or sounded like so, and I answered accordingly.

Well, I just answered with examples having both handcrafted everything linear story-heavy RPG and an kinda open world one with some procedural content in it. It reinforces only one thing - you can fail less with both.

No, that's just mindless grind which has been ruining games since 1978 at least.

It is. But the void between the gaps in Twitcher games is pretty much not filled with anything yet the economy in these games still broken, and they're still boring in these moments. At least some dynamic should be present.

 

[sullynathan]

Of course, weapon handling goes way beyond just shooting the gun. Aside from accuracy, differences between a novice and an expert become instantly apparent in for example these things:
- the speed of drawing your weapon and readying it for firing
- the speed with which you're able to take a well-aimed shot after moving, turning, reloading etc.
- managing recoil thanks to knowing how to hold the gun properly
- the speed with which you're able to change a magazine, especially when moving or in the middle of combat
- fixing a jam
- preventing a jam from happening
- cleaning and maintaining your weapon
- adjusting your sights and making modifications to your weapon

Doesn't most of this shit get handwaved due to being a futuristic cyberpunk game where you play as a cyborg with futuristic guns?

 

[Zer0wing]

Doesn't most of this shit get handwaved due to being a futuristic cyberpunk game where you play as a cyborg with futuristic guns?

Partly. This shit gets handwaved because you play as a cyborg with augmented eyes and handgrip implant that supposedly places the gun right in the position to shoot and not lose it after the first recoil.

 

[RNGsus]

So this won't be Sniper Elite 2077?

 

[ScrotumBroth]

After re-watching the gameplay video with a cool head, I still like it. One thing I don't like is scripted melee take-downs. What happens if enemies see you mid animation? Are they going to pretend you're invisible, like in so many games? Just have aversion to loosing control.

I like that you can dance around and in front of enemies, and not just hide behind cover. I hope they take this to another level, so you can go in like some Matrix berserker.

 

[CaesarCzech]

So, how do you make a good first person RPG where guns are the weapons of choice

(1) Don't make guns the centrepiece of everything.

(2) Your gun skills would make you stronger of course -- faster reload, faster recovery between shots, better handling of recoil, when sniping less wobble in the crosshairs and so on, perhaps even a subtle damage boost as long as it doesn't feel too gamey. Plus, cyberware-enabled things like "bullet time," auto-aiming, smart bullets etc.

(3) The other areas in which your character improves would be at least as important, if not more: hacking, intrusion, stealth, silent melee takedowns, social aptitudes, damage resistance through cyberware, and so on and so forth.

and how you depict character combat progression if you want to eliminate player's shooting skill and reflexes from the equation?

You don't. In a first-person RPG, the player's shooting skills and reflexes should be a part of the equation, otherwise it'll feel clunky and jarring (see V.A.T.S.) If you want to remove them from the equation, don't make a first-person RPG.

Alpha protocol is and example of why you make it part of equation and even AP did have partial implementation of player skill.

 

[Latelistener]

Timestamped:

 

[Gerrard]

So, how do you make a good first person RPG where guns are the weapons of choice and how you depict character combat progression if you want to eliminate player's shooting skill and reflexes from the equation?

Use VATS.

So, how do you make a good first person RPG where guns are the weapons of choice and how you depict character combat progression if you want to eliminate player's shooting skill and reflexes from the equation?

Except the way the weapon skills worked in DX was terrible. Using a pistol is not rocket science, especially if you're a trained professional, but here you start with the accuracy of a drunk hobo. Second, not moving for 10 seconds does not magically make your aim better.

 

[Carrion]

Second, not moving for 10 seconds does not magically make your aim better.

Surely spending a few seconds to stabilize your aim helps you hit your targets more reliably. DX's system is heavily abstracted, but it's far from terrible.

 

[Gerrard]

Second, not moving for 10 seconds does not magically make your aim better.

Surely spending a few seconds to stabilize your aim helps you hit your targets more reliably. DX's system is heavily abstracted, but it's far from terrible.

You either know how to do it and have the required practice or you don't. Spending too much time in aiming position would most likely have the opposite effect on an untrained person as muscle fatigue would set in and cause your hands/arms to tremble more.
Also, you could still look around and that didn't affect your accuracy, so you could get better aim at moving targets, which doesn't make much sense either.

 

[Prime Junta]

Surely spending a few seconds to stabilize your aim helps you hit your targets more reliably. DX's system is heavily abstracted, but it's far from terrible.

Problem is DX's system is really unpleasant to play, until you level up your skills sufficiently. In an FPS it just feels wrong that your bullets don't go where you're pointing. That is bad. There are bound to be better ways.

 

[Carrion]

You either know how to do it and have the required practice or you don't. Spending too much time in aiming position would most likely have the opposite effect on an untrained person as muscle fatigue would set in and cause your hands/arms to tremble more.
Also, you could still look around and that didn't affect your accuracy, so you could get better aim at moving targets, which doesn't make much sense either.

The system could've been more fleshed-out for sure. I've always thought the targeting system was more like an abstraction of different aspects of weapon handling rather than just aiming, but it definitely could've been developed further.

Problem is DX's system is really unpleasant to play, until you level up your skills sufficiently.

I don't find it unpleasant at all. I mean, everyone knows the gunfeel isn't the best, and there's a certain jankiness to how the fire fights usually play out, but the skill system works superbly in terms of gameplay, with weapon skills making a huge difference in what your character can do. It also avoids the frustration of pure randomized accuracy by allowing you to reliably hit things even with low skills — you just can't go in guns blazing like Rambo until you've got Rambo-level skills.

In an FPS it just feels wrong that your bullets don't go where you're pointing. That is bad. There are bound to be better ways.

Are you also bothered by not always hitting your enemies in Morrowind?

 

[Prime Junta]

I don't find it unpleasant at all.

Suit yourself. I would imagine you find yourself in a minority though.

Are you also bothered by not always hitting your enemies in Morrowind?

Yes, Morrowind combat sucks like a tornado.

Edit: truth be told though -- the janky DX gunplay ceases to be a problem pretty quick into the game as you either stop using guns or upgrade your skills sufficiently, and with Morrowind you just get used to the stinky swordplay; there's so much else in the game that's awesome that you can get past it. It still sucks tho

Edit edit: abstracted-out combat just doesn't work in first-person games yo, you need to find other ways to make your build count

 

[Squid]

It's why a lot of people hate Morrowind. Most people hardly tolerate an action viewpoint with RPG mechanics ruling over it. People think Witcher 1 sucks due to something in a similar manner. "Omg I can control my person in a non isometric/topdown view but I can't control how often he dodges or hits? Gross! This is why Witcher 3 was obviously superior!"

 

[Prime Junta]

Yeah. Action RPGs need to be action games first, and have the RPG mechanics build on that. Making the action worse because of the RPG mechanics is just a bad idea. Sometimes I even wonder if it's worth the trouble. The line between action RPGs and immersive sims is a blurry one, and I'd rather play an immersive sim with C&C than an action RPG with janky action, all else being equal.

 

[RoSoDude]

Vanilla Deus Ex gunplay is janky for reasons other than just its accuracy system, though:

• Unpleasantly slow recoil "climbing" effect. It can take up to a full second after you stop firing for you to regain full control of your view. This is probably the biggest factor in DX's lackluster gunplay
• Inconsistent communication of accuracy from targeting reticles thanks to an insanely stupid programming of the range stat, which makes the sniper rifle pinpoint accurate while the pistol can't reliably hit a guy from 10m away even when they have the same accuracy stat. Hard to read encounters or intuit the mechanics as a result
• More shenanigans with weapon range which apply bullet drop only when you would have hit your target, so you can't actually compensate for it in long-range firefights. Sometimes you don't hit your target within range even with high accuracy for unknown reasons which can't be mitigated
• Low quality assets and poorly fleshed out effects, such as the lack of weapon bob, lame and incomplete sound effects, and ugly weapon models
• Limited/poor communication of hit registration, whether through enemy reactions or abstract indicators like hitmarkers
• Miscellaneous issues like weapon bugs, annoying restrictions on the scope state, and problems with hit detection

(Nearly all of these issues are addressed in the GMDX mod, by the way)

The abstracted accuracy system is actually one of the strongest assets of Deus Ex's gameplay in concept, even if it has problems in execution for some of the aforementioned reasons. In the early game before your weapon skills are upgraded, the game plays like a stealthy tactical shooter where you have to either give yourself enough time to line up a shot or close the distance with your enemy, while later on you'll be able to target enemies at range while moving, which opens up the space of available combat strategies. The abstraction is important, as it allows the user's aim stability and targeting speed to occupy the same category as inherent weapon accuracy, which means that it can be influenced by both character upgrades AND gear upgrades. The overlapping upgrade design, particularly with the weapon modding system, adds a lot to build depth and offers satisfying routes to character progression. Another viable alternative FPS/RPG design can be seen in System Shock 2, where weapon skills only modulate damage and the ability to wield weapons, but other features like weapon kick are modulated by stats like Agility and weapon modification/maintenance/repair are controlled by other technical skills. Abstraction is also key here to making character statistics important without removing player skill in aiming, positioning, and management from the equation. The problem comes not with the abstraction of features of FPS gunplay and weapon handling, but the removal of player control over the outcome of combat and the failure to communicate the effects of player AND character inputs on the game's state. With all that said, VATS can shove it.

 

[sullynathan]

People think Witcher 1 sucks due to something in a similar manner. "

You don't have to think it, the combat factually sucks.

When building an "action rpg" with a lot of times, action based combat, these devs don't do things well

 

[Zer0wing]

Another viable alternative FPS/RPG design can be seen in System Shock 2, where weapon skills only modulate damage and the ability to wield weapons, but other features like weapon kick are modulated by stats like Agility and weapon modification/maintenance/repair are controlled by other technical skills.

This is something many (myself included, tbh) see as greater evil, since damage output in CP2020 was fixed and tied to weapons themselves. CDPR's official forums sperg the shit out about any possibility of skills controlling the dmg output.

 

[RoSoDude]

Another viable alternative FPS/RPG design can be seen in System Shock 2, where weapon skills only modulate damage and the ability to wield weapons, but other features like weapon kick are modulated by stats like Agility and weapon modification/maintenance/repair are controlled by other technical skills.

This is something many (myself included, tbh) see as greater evil, since damage output in CP2020 was fixed and tied to weapons themselves. CDPR's official forums sperg the shit out about any possibility of skills controlling the dmg output.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have weapon skills influence damage, but I get the concern. It feels off if a pistol goes from a wimpy pea shooter to a lethal hand cannon after the player increases their character's weapon skill to what, target the guy's spleen 10x more effectively? What's going on there, exactly? Beyond just the realism/immersion concerns introduced by the damage abstraction, you can also get to a state where weapon archetypes are not as clearly defined if the character stats influence them too heavily, and damage is a big part of that.

I'm not saying which system is superior one way or another, I'm just pointing on that Deus Ex and System Shock 2 are good examples of FPS/RPG design done right for the most part. Besides, the maximum damage bonus attainable for guns in Deus Ex is +100% damage with Master skills, or +140% damage with Master skills + Targeting. In System Shock 2 it's up to +75% increase from weapon skills alone (it's +15% for every point in the weapon skill above the minimum requirement), and the only other increase to gun damage is through weapon modification. In Fallout 3/NV I believe the maximum bonus from weapon skills is also +100%. These are all in a pretty reasonable range, if you ask me. Not saying you couldn't design an FPS/RPG with no direct influence of character statistics on damage, or that it wouldn't be preferable based on the tabletop game (I wouldn't know). I just think some damage scaling can be a good thing depending on the circumstances, and isn't too unbelievable.

 

[agris]

In FNV your gun damage was tied to the skill level, and it felt like a garbage gamey system.

 

[Grotesque]

In an FPS it just feels wrong that your bullets don't go where you're pointing

In an FPS could/should feel wrong, but what about in an RPG?
Although, I once read that the jankiness of Dead Space shooting controls (mouse aim had slow sensitivity and high inertia) were planned that way for the player to always feel unsure of his aim/shooting accuracy and always to be in doubt to keep the pressure up and the gameplay tension high.

Make the bullets go where you're pointing but make the pointing of the gun real hard when character is unskilled and the handling or recoil a real bitch that would detract from the time required to put shots on target again.
But seeing that there are guns that shoot homing bullets, they will never implement systems that take into account character skill but only player skill.

Spoiler

Instead of VATS, a hybrid system with the gameplay mechanics of Super Hot where for a timed period you can use bullet time but the drawback would be that if hit, you're nearly dead, whatever the hitpoints you have.

• aiming fatigue
• handling of recoil
• time to acquire target through sights
• hand shakiness
• reloading times
• ambidextrous (for shooting from improper cover)

+all the corespondent systems for meelee simulation

All these drawbacks could be alleviated by implants and skill progression. A character with zero skills invested in handling guns could be a decent shooter with the right implants.
But programming all these effects and balancing them would take too much time and effort.


Instead we will have the average shooter experience with cool abilities like sliding on your knees like a footballer, hanging from the ceiling like spider-man, seeing through walls or double jump, the most moronic thing a shooter can have that wants to be somewhat realistic.
At least I hope it makes it and augmentation or something like having turbojets in the butt-cheeks or something.

 

[Prime Junta]

In an FPS could/should feel wrong, but what about in an RPG?

If it's a RPG where you shoot guns from first-person perspective, same.

 

[Grotesque]

In an FPS could/should feel wrong, but what about in an RPG?

If it's a RPG where you shoot guns from first-person perspective, same.

then it's a shooter with a waft of RPG elements in it.

 

[Prime Junta]

In an FPS could/should feel wrong, but what about in an RPG?

If it's a RPG where you shoot guns from first-person perspective, same.

then it's a shooter with a waft of RPG elements in it.

In that case, the only thing that qualifies FO:NV as a RPG is VATS. If that's the definition you want to roll with, I ain't gonna stop you -- but I'm not getting on your truck either.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

The problem with FP shooting is that you always have a targeting reticule on screen, which naturally makes people think and feel their shots should go to that point.

Making it wobbly or expand or anything similar is just a nonsensical attempt at patching something that is fundamentally wrong so it never really works. Although since most of the target audience are devolved superficial cretins addicted to superficial emotional triggers the games sell well enough and thats whats really important to various companies.

Reticule should be removed but then you hit the problem of FP PoV being distorted garbage, for which the targeting reticules are a patch - that dont work but just create further issues.