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Review Cynic's Grim Dawn Alpha Impressions

godsend1989

Scholar
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Oct 30, 2009
Messages
270
Divinity: Original Sin
Stopped reading when he said he never played most of the H&S out there... i mean how can you review a game like this without playing the father of this genre, your review its irrelevant sir, waiting a proper review.

Also, whats with the level scaling ? why they cant just give monsters some level range not based on your level, like shitty grim skeleton; level range 1-5; based on level its better stronger faster i dont know... feels more natural this way.

Edit: ok, i lied, i read it all.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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5,698
The "review" is well-written, no doubt about it, but it really is more of an favourable infodump and less of a review, as far as I see it.
Perhaps that's why I wrote preview instead of review.
 

Cynic

Arcane
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Feb 22, 2011
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1,850
I didn't submit it as a review, I said they were my alpha impressions. It got posted as a review because I think that's just how our prestigious magazine works.

I have criticised a fair bit about the Alpha, I certainly didn't say it was perfect. I have an entire section devoted to critical observations and make numerous criticisms at various points in the write up.

These are my opinions, you can agree or disagree but saying that I wasn't critical at all is just completely false.

I included a disclaimer about my lack of experience with the genre, but honestly why does it matter so much? Because Torment has better writing than BG2 does that make one unequivocally better than the other? Why do comparisons need to be made, why is it wrong to judge each game on its individual merits? I think a huge problem with this genre is that people will automatically write something off as a Diablo clone, then if it isn't one, criticise it for failing at delivering what the genre is about.

I played a bit of TL1, couldn't continue because of shitty kiddy wow atmosphere, which the sequel didn't fix. I have watched a few videos of PoE, it looks alright but something just doesn't grab me about it, it feels kind of soulless. I've seen the skill trees and they look great however. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, I just don't have time to play it.

As I said you can wait for the full game and reviews by more experienced aRPG veterans, these are just my impressions from the Alpha as it stands, and basically my impression is that the game is shaping up very nicely. Whether they can fix the issues that are present and keep the quality up through the rest of the game remains to be seen.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Cynic said:
I didn't submit it as a review, I said they were my alpha impressions. It got posted as a review because I think that's just how our prestigious magazine works.

It's posted as impressions. I'm just calling a spade a spade.


I have criticised a fair bit about the Alpha, I certainly didn't say it was perfect. I have an entire section devoted to critical observations and make numerous criticisms at various points in the write up.

These are my opinions, you can agree or disagree but saying that I wasn't critical at all is just completely false.

"Completely false" eh? A few lines of addendums that are pretty much sidenotes to the overall impression itself.

You can agree or disagree, but saying that it is completely false that you lack criticism is just completely false ;)

I included a disclaimer about my lack of experience with the genre, but honestly why does it matter so much? Because Torment has better writing than BG2 does that make one unequivocally better than the other? Why do comparisons need to be made, why is it wrong to judge each game on its individual merits? I think a huge problem with this genre is that people will automatically write something off as a Diablo clone, then if it isn't one, criticise it for failing at delivering what the genre is about.

Because perspective is important. How rage-infested does this place get when someone gives a glowing review of some new RPG then says he's never played any other RPG? From perspective comes knowledge, and realization. You might see the other games do something much worse or much better than Grim Dawn, and that changes your perspective on the game itself.

What you are doing is outright dismissing the value a library of games as a quality in a reviewer. I think such a dismissal is kind of far-fetched.

Someone reviewing Dragon Age II might see it as a shiny example of fantastic Choice & Consequence mechanics because he's never played a game that outclassed it in that area. I think this truth is pretty self-evident, honestly.

I played a bit of TL1, couldn't continue because of shitty kiddy wow atmosphere, which the sequel didn't fix. I have watched a few videos of PoE, it looks alright but something just doesn't grab me about it, it feels kind of soulless. I've seen the skill trees and they look great however. I'm sure it's a lot of fun, I just don't have time to play it.

I am not saying "play these games," Cynic. I'm saying your opinions on the mechanics of an action RPG are of limited use considering you have neither context nor perspective. You might for all intends and purposes be right in everything you say and at the same time Path of Exile might still be surperior in almost every department (I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it could be).

As I said you can wait for the full game and reviews by more experienced aRPG veterans, these are just my impressions from the Alpha as it stands, and basically my impression is that the game is shaping up very nicely. Whether they can fix the issues that are present and keep the quality up through the rest of the game remains to be seen.

Note that I didn't say, at any point, that your article was horrible. I simply said I didn't think it was of much use, i.e. I don't think I have a much clearer idea of the quality of Grim Dawn after having read it.

Anyway, none of what I've said was intented as snide comments, only constructive criticism. Take/throw away as you will :)
 

Cynic

Arcane
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,850
Fair enough, I disagree that the criticisms are side notes only though. I've started a couple of threads over at their forums complaining about the things which I've mentioned as issues in this write up. The responses have just showed me that the fanboys over there pretty much cannot have a proper discussion about mechanics at all. I'm hoping that when they open the alpha up at lower tiers, more Codexians get it and can provide more constructive feedback for them.

I agree that perspective IS important, but I disagree that this perspective can only be formed by playing games that follow the exact same model. If someone reviewed Dragon Age II and had anything good to say about it, it would mean that they have very shitty taste and horrible knowledge of what makes a game, any kind of game, good.
 

Cynic

Arcane
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Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,850
Also, whats with the level scaling ? why they cant just give monsters some level range not based on your level, like shitty grim skeleton; level range 1-5; based on level its better stronger faster i dont know... feels more natural this way.

Edit: ok, i lied, i read it all.

I think that is a pretty cool idea, but it may result in the game becoming significantly more challenging. As it stands there are areas very near the beginning of the game that have mobs which start at a level range quite a bit above you, and this keeps happening as you go out into further areas. If their starting range is level 8 but their maximum level is 12 and you can encounter them when you're level 3, encountering a random level 12 mob that just one shots you is not going to be much fun. You could make the argument for saying tough shit though, and that doesn't bother me so much personally, but I suspect a lot of gamers would be turned off. The RPS preview already went on and on about how hard the game is (it isn't that hard), I'm sure the devs will be wary of putting in extra stuff to make it more challenging at this stage. Maybe they could play around with different mechanics on the different difficulty settings.

Also how do you control the probability of higher level enemies spawning? If it's completely random and your level range is narrow...it's not going to be so varied.
 
Unwanted

Cursed Platypus

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On top of you having played neither of the two big "comparison titles" out right now (Path of Exiles and Torchlight) I gotta say your impressions were well-written but ultimately don't hold that much utility.

Bullshit. To Compare is the trap. Those games have little in common and should not be compared. They have completely different goals.

PoE and Torch are popamole loot farming simulator. The whole point is to grind gear, PoE managing to be even more linear than Diablo.

Grim Dawn's goals are less well known and difficult to find out, I give you that. The sensible infos are more scattered into the numerous Dev post on the forums, Including in one thread where I lured one into explaining the open world mechanics. They didn't said shit in their Kickstarter campaign or most official interviews.
In short, it tries to be more of a true exploration focused RPG (with factions, C&C, dialogue choice, dynamically evolving world) than an ARPG phat lewt fest. Even the combat designs will be shaped around this idea (It's basically just a glorified tech demo right now).

Only way to compare would be graphic wise, since they all employ the same kind of view and put the character and his interactions in a same geometrical context.
 

Cynic

Arcane
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,850
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnPWYH02vX8

It's TQ clone so I don't believe it will have meaningful C&C or dialog trees that some people imply here.

Never said it would have dialog trees but they've already implemented C&C in the Alpha, so you're just fucking wrong. Have you played it or are you just talking out of your ass?

Also, none of the assets come from TQ, they were legally not allowed to use any of them.

Edit: my point here is that it may have a lot of similarities to TQ, but they've clearly stated they are trying to take a different direction in a lot of ways.

I'm just reporting the facts, but as always, retards gonna retard.
 

BlackAdderBG

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First learn to read.I wrote "meaningful" and never quoted or target you with the post.

Second:"...As I hadn’t played Titan’s Quest..." /thread
 

Cynic

Arcane
Joined
Feb 22, 2011
Messages
1,850
First learn to read.I wrote "meaningful" and never quoted or target you with the post.


Define what meaningful is in an aRPG please. I'd say cutting off access to a dungeon with high level mobs and therefore loot based on your quest choices is pretty meaningful in this kind of game.
 

Saark

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
It'd be pretty interesting to hear from someone who had played Path of Exile or Torchlight, to get some comparisons. Both those games have major flaws, but are somewhat favoured by many codexers in the sea of current aRPG alternatives to Diablo 3. How Grim Dawn would hold up against those would be interesting to know.


There's really not much to say right now, as GD is still in Alpha and as Cursed Platypus already mentioned PoE and GD just feel different. PoE tried to jump out of the rut aRPGs have been in the last decade with the perk-system, the FF7-esque skillgem mechanic and the crafting system, but other than that it really feels very similar to D2 in many aspects. Trading yourself without any auction house or shit like that, the different currencies used to trade and their respective value when using them on your items and even the amount of monsters, with a few being unique and the rest of them being randomly generated, it all copies D2 and successfully so. I still enjoy PoE right now, mainly due to the changes that come pretty much every other week (really loving the anarchy exiles), and the possibility to play both efficient builds and builds that are just fun, even though your killspeed might suffer. I also enjoy that some Uniques got special Mods on them that makes them a requirement for specific builds, reminds me of the old bear-sorc back in D2. You really get the feeling that the devs care about their game, and don't just want to throw it out there for a couple of months, making a buttload of money just to create a sequel or some shitty ipad game to get even more cash. For a game that is still in Open Beta it really is fun, even after a while. And when it stops being fun, you come back a few months later, and have quite alot of new stuff to discover, or deliberately roll retarded mods on a hard map to make you sweat. Thats how I enjoy my aRPGs.

GD is of a different breed, mainly because it is still hard to anticipate where the game is going. I really enjoyed the atmosphere, music and while the setting is somewhat generic, GD actually manages to intrigue. The little hidden notes, while rare, add to the atmosphere aswell and I am hoping to see more of them in the future. The class system still isn't fleshed out, but I already managed to find a couple of viable builds for every class and I haven't even played around with dual-classing yet. Builds aren't as item dependant as they are in PoE too, which makes it easier to get into. The monsters later into the game also use abilities you yourself have access to which is a nice touch. Since you would get raped otherwise, the lower monster density mitigates the difficulty increase somewhat. All in all it feels pretty polished for an alpha, bugs are getting fixed quickly and I am really looking forward to the future development of this game. I still prefer PoE, and will do so for a while, but GD is on a good way - lets hope they keep it up. The deciding factor will be how multiplayer pans out and what endgame GD is going to offer. Development cycles will also be very important.

Regarding the level-scaling discussion: In your average RPG it sucks monkeyballs, but why the fuck would you complain about it in an aRPG? I'm glad that I am able to actually choose between areas when not progressing, what monsters I will encounter, and not having to keep farming the same region a hundred times just because it is easier to farm thanks to linearity or mob density. The limited level scaling, the way it is in GD, is how it should be when you decide to implement level scaling in the first place, and in a game that revolves around grinding loot and experience, you need to give the player different options to do it.
 

Cynic

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Saark what the fuck is your Avatar man I watched this cartoon a lot when I was a kid but can't remember what it is right now, I must know!
 

Saark

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Saark what the fuck is your Avatar man I watched this cartoon a lot when I was a kid but can't remember what it is right now, I must know!

Its Merman, one of Skeletors top-tier minions.
 

MicoSelva

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Quite informative preview, if not very entertaining to read. This game is definitely on my radar, but I'm not touching it before the final version is released.
 

Sensuki

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I'd just like to add that I played this game a few hours after it came out when it had the more extreme level scaling in. I complained and others complained about it and they lessened the presence of it throughout many of the areas. Once they made that change I no longer found the game to be as replayable because my level 25 character is now limited to like 2 areas to grind loot properly. The level scaling was actually pretty good, it could have used a different way of tweaking IMO rather than capping them off at low levels.
 

Cynic

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I'd just like to add that I played this game a few hours after it came out when it had the more extreme level scaling in. I complained and others complained about it and they lessened the presence of it throughout many of the areas. Once they made that change I no longer found the game to be as replayable because my level 25 character is now limited to like 2 areas to grind loot properly. The level scaling was actually pretty good, it could have used a different way of tweaking IMO rather than capping them off at low levels.

The thing is though man, at that point you'd be moving onto a new area in the game anyway so you'd have a whole new bunch of areas to farm. It's natural that at level 25 you can't go and farm the Lower Crossing for the same kind of loot as you would Hallowed Hill or by doing Warden Runs.
 

Metro

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Just hadn't seen him for like 25 years.

triclops.jpg
 

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