D&D 5E Discussion

[Caim]

D&D's biggest problem is D&D

FTFY

 

[Snorkack]

D&D's biggest problem with magic users is, and always was, the retarded Vancian magic. Just kill it and replace it with something like WHFRP magic.
There, I said it.

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"? Or did I misunderstand your ratings and there's even bigger problems with magic users.
It makes playing a 1st level caster retarded and boring because you do your one trick and then hide behind the party for the rest of the day like a cuck.
It makes playing a high level caster retarded and boring because you rarely find yourself limited anymore with the stuff you can do, unless the GM forces the suggested 8 or what encounters per day before allowing a long rest.
At certain mid levels it might have some merits as it does require some planning ahead of a (one-day) expedition, but at the same time it makes magic incredibly predictable and deprives it of any mystery. You pick magic missile three times, and you know exactly that this day you will be able to dish out an average of 31.5 damage with low variance. No risks, no preventing this damage. I'd rather cast magic missile as often as I want, but everytime I do, there's a DC check to be made, plus 5% chance of something going horribly wrong.

And don't get me started on the fluff of the system ("Good morning Apprentice Wizard senior class, today we will practise the spell Shield. Very good, class dismissed, see you tomorrow when we train it again").

Also, in the 25 years I know DnD now, I have never seen a good implementation of Vancian to track which spells are prepared and which slots are expended so that it can be changed quickly and is easy to grasp for player and for gm. I have seen better implementations of encumbrance and light source tracking man. consider that.

 

[aleph]

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"? .

That's alone already reason enough.

 

[Larianshill]

Retardation like that is the reason why Alignment is still a thing.

 

[Snorkack]

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"? .

That's alone already reason enough.

Okay, boomer luj1

 

[aleph]

Retardation like that is the reason why Alignment is still a thing.

Funny, because it hasn't been a thing in any meaningful way for a while now.

 

[Cryomancer]

It makes playing a 1st level caster retarded and boring because you do your one trick and then hide behind the party for the rest of the day like a cuck.

And this is why anti casters/caster haters love low level D&D. Only due this reason.

However, your low level magic user would be far more useful if he is casting enlarge on the party fighter, or charm person or putting an enemy to sleep or casting grease. It is far more useful than a 1d4+1 damage from magic missile. Even when you reach lv 5 and get fireball, you are far more useful casting haste on your party than casting a spell like fireball. Mainly considering that you can only cast it once per day.

t makes playing a high level caster retarded and boring because you rarely find yourself limited anymore

Actually, you find. On tabletop, I remember when my lv 16 sorc on 3E ran out of spells after a long dungeon and while sleeping, a bunch of elves assassins with deadly poison arrows and magical longbows attacked us at night. I had to burn all scrolls obtained in the dungeon to survive. Even in video games where you can rest scum, I almost ran out of spells when playing BG2:EE on Legacy of Bhaal on final battle

my spell usage

5 tier 9/epic spells 3 -> summon planetar and 2 stop time
7 Tier 8 > 5 * horrid wilting + pierce shield (and forgot to unmemorize the spell trigger)
6 tier 7 > 3 finger of death + limited wish + Mordekainen's Sword
4 tier 6 spells > Two Invisible stalker + Spell deflection + True sigh
2 tier 5 spells > Two lower resists<
1 tier 4 spell > Greater Malison
5 tier 3 spells > 5 skull traps

Zero tier 1/2 spells. I an a necromancer. Necromancers can't cast the good low level illusion spells.

Total : 30 spells in battle

My spellbook after the battle

The same is truth for divine casters.

On my S&W campaign, the druid at lv 5 used the raven form to scout the area and helped a lot to the party find the kidnappers.

And honestly, in therms of team utility, divine casters are better than arcane. Mainly at low levels. But this doesn't mean that a wizard can't cast invisbility on a rogue teammate and let him score nasty sneak attacks.

Retardation like that is the reason why Alignment is still a thing.

Alignment is a great concept. Good, Evil, Law, Chaos aren't just concepts on D&D. Are forces. In fact, I an in favor of bringing far more alingment restricted classes, spells, powers and etc. A lawful barbarian makes no sense IMO. Barbarians should be chaotic. Clerics of a lawful good deity needs to be good and lawful.

 

[nikolokolus]

D&D's biggest problem with magic users is, and always was, the retarded Vancian magic. Just kill it and replace it with something like WHFRP magic.
There, I said it.

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"? Or did I misunderstand your ratings and there's even bigger problems with magic users.
It makes playing a 1st level caster retarded and boring because you do your one trick and then hide behind the party for the rest of the day like a cuck.
It makes playing a high level caster retarded and boring because you rarely find yourself limited anymore with the stuff you can do, unless the GM forces the suggested 8 or what encounters per day before allowing a long rest.
At certain mid levels it might have some merits as it does require some planning ahead of a (one-day) expedition, but at the same time it makes magic incredibly predictable and deprives it of any mystery. You pick magic missile three times, and you know exactly that this day you will be able to dish out an average of 31.5 damage with low variance. No risks, no preventing this damage. I'd rather cast magic missile as often as I want, but everytime I do, there's a DC check to be made, plus 5% chance of something going horribly wrong.

And don't get me started on the fluff of the system ("Good morning Apprentice Wizard senior class, today we will practise the spell Shield. Very good, class dismissed, see you tomorrow when we train it again").

Also, in the 25 years I know DnD now, I have never seen a good implementation of Vancian to track which spells are prepared and which slots are expended so that it can be changed quickly and is easy to grasp for player and for gm. I have seen better implementations of encumbrance and light source tracking man. consider that.

I had a similar realization when I finally stumbled onto Stormbringer (and BRP-based games more broadly) a long time ago. I had this "ah ha" moment when I realized that you can have a Magic Point-based casting system that doesn't have to feel like "pew pew pew" but also can have some really powerful effects at a very high risk/cost by restricting the really awesome effects to summoning and binding demons and elementals

Back in D20 land, the best magic system I've ever seen is DCC RPG's wizard system: you can cast any of your known spells as many times as you can per day (up to the level you are able) until you fail your casting roll, but you can overcome this limitation by using stuff like Spellburn (sacrificing ability scores to raise your casting roll) or burn Luck (permanently) to make the spell go off successfully. It gives the wizard's player real strategic and tactical decisions to make; weighing the cost of casting spells at the expense of their overall health (not to mention risking a fumble and incurring corruption). If I were going to play 5th ed. I think I'd find some way to use the DCC magic system.

 

[Morblot]

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"?

I can't convince you anyway, so I won't bother to try. *I* like it and that's enough for *me*. And since this is a D&D thread, I'll mention that, as far as I know, it's also pretty unique to D&D (and obvious derivatives thereof), thus making D&D have a feel of its own compared to other games.

Oh, and that one spell you can cast at level 1? Pick Sleep or Charm Person. You'll be a god among the other neophytes.

 

[Cryomancer]

Oh, and that one spell you can cast at level 1? Pick Sleep or Charm Person. You'll be a god among the other neophytes.

Even on mid and high levels, on 2/3e, I believe that only about 1/3 of your spells should be offensive ones. The 2/3 should be group buffing, crowd control, utility, etc. The worst thing that a lv1 magic user can do is prepare only a magic missile and only cast it. 5e bough at will cantrips which made low level wizard play far less terrible, but also nerfed the non evocation spells really hard.

 

[Larianshill]

Sorcerer Victor, I'd like you to know that I hate you, and I hate everything you stand for, and I will never like you, and we will never be friends.

 

[Cryomancer]

I'd like you to know that I hate you, and I hate everything you stand for, and I will never like you, and we will never be friends.

Thanks. I take being hated by a "larian shiller" as a compliment.

-----------------------------------

Anyway guys. Do you think that "porting" Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged exemplar into a D&D ruleset could work?

 

[Raghar]

is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"?.

It's easy to balance.

 

[Snorkack]

I can't convince you anyway, so I won't bother to try. *I* like it and that's enough for *me*. And since this is a D&D thread, I'll mention that, as far as I know, it's also pretty unique to D&D (and obvious derivatives thereof), thus making D&D have a feel of its own compared to other games.

You probably won't, but I'm not out to start a fight, I'm genuinely curious whether people find something to like about it that goes beyond 'we always did it that way'. Like I said, in theory I can see how it would reward strategical planning ahead. In practise, it boils down to 'did you guess what spell will be needed today correctly, or does the party need to sleep another night?' 99% of the time.

Oh, and that one spell you can cast at level 1? Pick Sleep or Charm Person. You'll be a god among the other neophytes.

Agreed.

 

[Bara]

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"?

Compelling case? Not really but I enjoy it because magic still feels special compared to the other games I played while retaining simplicity.

Being able to cast magic over and over again without draining up some kind of resource cheapens the magic of spellcasting to me and I've enjoyed vancian magic the most.

DCC magic system is also cool I'll say but pulling up a chart for each spell means I'd always have the pdf read it rather than just writting out the spell somewhere else.

 

[nikolokolus]

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"?

Compelling case? Not really but I enjoy it because magic still feels special compared to the other games I played while retaining simplicity.

Being able to cast magic over and over again without draining up some kind of resource cheapens the magic of spellcasting to me and I've enjoyed vancian magic the most.

DCC magic system is also cool I'll say but pulling up a chart for each spell means I'd always have the pdf read it rather than just writting out the spell somewhere else.

The trick is to just print out the whole spell and all of the spells that the character knows from the PDF and staple them together like they are actually a "spell book"; it's not as bad as it sounds because DCC Casters usually have a much shorter list of spells known compared to various version of D&D. Second to that is to use the Crawler's Companion smart phone or desktop app from Purple Sorcerer Games and just reference the spell's effect with that.

 

[Alex]

D&D's biggest problem with magic users is, and always was, the retarded Vancian magic. Just kill it and replace it with something like WHFRP magic.
There, I said it.

Okay, Bara Morblot Alex is there a compelling case to be made in favour of Vancian magic other than "It's old school"? Or did I misunderstand your ratings and there's even bigger problems with magic users.

I think the main point of "vancian" magic is giving the players a certain kind of challenge. Wizards in D&D are very fragile; but they can be very good characters if you know what you are doing and you take the time to find out about where you are going next. This allows for a certain playstyle where you are trying to anticipate what is coming your way and plan how to best deal with that. This kind of play is actually supported not only by the vancian system but by the spells in D&D themselves. There are several divination spells that will give you a good chance to find out about what you will face next, there are spells that have a very specific but powerful use (such a fireball). There are spells that are more open to being used in different ways (like summon elemental, or mount, or enlarge, etc).

It makes playing a 1st level caster retarded and boring because you do your one trick and then hide behind the party for the rest of the day like a cuck.

Well, you don't need to contribute to the party only by magic. You can always help with other stuff such as mapping, carrying torches, etc. I consider the low level mage experience integral part of D&D.

It makes playing a high level caster retarded and boring because you rarely find yourself limited anymore with the stuff you can do, unless the GM forces the suggested 8 or what encounters per day before allowing a long rest.

I never had much experience with very high level play. I believe we used to play with a rule where it took 10 minutes per spell level memorised to memorise it, besides resting. That alone might make the wizard think twice before wasting a spell. But even if you are correct on this, that still doesn't mean vancian spellcasting is the issue.

At certain mid levels it might have some merits as it does require some planning ahead of a (one-day) expedition, but at the same time it makes magic incredibly predictable and deprives it of any mystery. You pick magic missile three times, and you know exactly that this day you will be able to dish out an average of 31.5 damage with low variance. No risks, no preventing this damage. I'd rather cast magic missile as often as I want, but everytime I do, there's a DC check to be made, plus 5% chance of something going horribly wrong.

Which is why DCC RPG tried to tackle this exact issue. That still is not something inherent to the vancian magic idea. Still, having spells work predictably is what allows a lot of D&D to be D&D. If you had a chance for a "perils of the warp" roll every time you threw a spell like you do in Warhammer, the scope of the game would need to be very different.

And don't get me started on the fluff of the system ("Good morning Apprentice Wizard senior class, today we will practise the spell Shield. Very good, class dismissed, see you tomorrow when we train it again"). (snip...)

Eh, as I see it, it helps. Makes actual spellcasting more important. It is not something you can do willy-nilly. An apprentice is studying the theory behind it and maybe doing the gestures without actually casting the spell.

 

[Gyor]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...ted-dungeons-dragons-shows-dnd-live-2021/amp/

The Resurrected G4 is showing this years D&D live 2021 this year in July, but it occurs to me we will likely know what the adventure is by then already, unlike previous years were the main adventure was in September it seems like its in July this year, which mean the announcement for the adventure will be announced this month in the next couple of weeks, which in turn means the big main book being announced at D&D live will not be the adventure being played at the event for the first time, it will be whatever none adventure book (probably a setting book or VGTM style book) that gets released in September). I wonder if it will also have AFR MtG game play as well, its the same days as AFR's release after all. I don't think that is an accident.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

JACK VANCE & THE D&D GAME
...
Need I say that I am not merely a Jack Vance fan, but that he is in my opinion the very best of all the authors of imaginative fiction? Well I am and he is!

When I began to add elements of fantasy to medieval miniatures wargames around 1969, of course the work of Jack Vance influenced what I did. Along with Robert E. Howard, de Camp & Pratt, A. Merritt. Michael Moorcock, Roger Zelazny, Poul Anderson, J.R.R. Tolkien, P.J. Farmer, Bram Stoker—and not a few others, including the fairy tales Brothers Grimm and Andrew Lang, and conventional mythologies—his writing was there in my memory. Happily so. What I devised was based on the fantastic creations of many previous writers, an amalgam of their imaginations and my own, and it was first published in 1971 as the CHAINMAIL Medieval Miniatures Rules, the “Fantasy Supplement” thereto. Not much later, in 1972, I wrote the first draft of what was later to become the first commercial Role-Playing Game, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, published in January, 1974.

Just what portions of these works, the subsequent AD&D game, stemmed from inspiration related to the writing of Jack Vance? Several elements, the unquestioned foremost being the magic system used in these games. To my way of thinking, the concept of a spell itself being magical, that its written form carried energy, seemed a perfect way to balance the mage against other types of characters in the game. The memorization of the spell required time and concentration so as to impart not merely the written content but also its magical energies. When subsequently cast—by speaking or some other means—the words or gestures, or whatever triggered the magical force of the spell, leaving a blank place in the brain where the previously memorized spell had been held. Because I explained this often, attributing its inspiration to Jack Vance, the D&D magic system of memorized then forgotten spells was dubbed by gamers “the Vancian magic system”
...
Aside from ideas and specific things, the very manner in which Jack Vance portrays a fantasy environment, the interaction of characters with that environment, and with each other, is so captivating that wherever I could manage it, I attempted to include the “feel” he brings to his fantasy tales in the AD&D game. My feeble ability likely managed to convey but little of this, but in all I do believe that a not a little of what fans consider to be the “soul” of the game stems from that attempt.
...
- Gary Gygax, 2001

 

[Morblot]

In practise, it boils down to 'did you guess what spell will be needed today correctly, or does the party need to sleep another night?' 99% of the time.

This is mitigated in (at least) 3e by allowing wizards to leave slots free in the morning. Thus, when during the adventure day you'd come upon a steep cliff, you could whip out your spellbook and memorize Spider Climb into your free 2nd level slot right there on the spot. It'd take at least 15 minutes to do, IIRC, so spells needed for emergencies would still be better memorized beforehand.

I don't know if this is allowed (or forbidden) in the earlier editions but I, personally, would okay it as the DM. Some of the magic users in The Dying Earth books also prepared spells they knew they'd need soon, if memory serves.

 

[Silva]

Retardation like that is the reason why Alignment is still a thing.

Alignments...

 

[infidel]

Hey, I think I've found your reddit account.

"I love... the general aesthetic of being a scholar storming into the battlefield."

Well, don't trip on your robes, man.

 

[Reinhardt]

Well, don't trip on your robes, man.

It's called "dress"

 

[Anonona]

Hey, I think I've found your reddit account.

Nah, he erased his Reddit account after some of his posts in that website were brought up one too many times in different discussions.

Spoiler

Probably the same reason he decided to change his username after someone found he praised BG3 when the EA released

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/eudnrp/is_ultima_online_the_unique_mmo_for_those_who/

This one for example was written by him. I found it when I decided to snoop around his account after someone posted it by coincidence.

 

[Cryomancer]

Nah, he erased his Reddit account

Nope. I erased my reddit previous account for reasons non related to gaming. And my original account there is far older than my codex account. And rarely post on my new account. here is my last rpg related post. As for my username, I was wanting to change my username from years. Din't knew that I could just ask for it. And yes, I praised BG3 and was wrong about it. BG3 will only be great when someone mod the 3E spells on it and remove all larienism. But how my reddit account and username is relevant to a 5E discussion? 2E was not only the best edition but also had the best adaptations into the CRPG genre.

And Woketards wanting to "promote the current edition" is the reason which Throne of bhaal is so rushed.

edit : I will ignore this thread, so don't expect me to answer anything related to 5e here.