D&D 5E Discussion

[Grauken]

If only Pathfinder wasn't woke and could steal their position

 

[Alienman]

After all, the most memorable and interesting characters often explicitly subvert expectations and stereotypes.

Yeah, no. So damn tired of this stuff. If they want to subvert my expectation make some damn characters based on fantasy stereotypes. It's so tiresome going into an adventure nowadays and realizing everything is upside down. They are stereotypes for a reason.

 

[mediocrepoet]

After all, the most memorable and interesting characters often explicitly subvert expectations and stereotypes.

Yeah, no. So damn tired of this stuff. If they want to subvert my expectation make some damn characters based on fantasy stereotypes. It's so tiresome going into an adventure nowadays and realizing everything is upside down. They are stereotypes for a reason.

Yes, this stuff has been old for 30 years or more. Certainly since all the dorky edge lords wanted to be dual wielding good drow because it was so original and spoke to their inner tormented and misunderstood soul.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Opportunity for someone to write a series of novels about an evil drow misfit who is never accepted by the homeland she was born into but eventually becomes an exile and following a long sojourn reaches the bustling Underdark metropolis of Menzoberranzan, a city she becomes proud to call home.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

After all, the most memorable and interesting characters often explicitly subvert expectations and stereotypes.

Yeah, no. So damn tired of this stuff. If they want to subvert my expectation make some damn characters based on fantasy stereotypes. It's so tiresome going into an adventure nowadays and realizing everything is upside down. They are stereotypes for a reason.

You know a few months back someone on Codex here made this topic asking for an RPG where you play as a stereotypical pure-of-heart, God-loving knight who does great deeds and loves the spirit of adventure that comes with it. This sounds like something you should be able to just list twenty games after being woken up from being drunk the night before due to how standard it seems.

But it was actually hard as fuck to think of even just five.

 

[Humbaba]

Your brain on contrarianism.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

After all, the most memorable and interesting characters often explicitly subvert expectations and stereotypes.

Yeah, no. So damn tired of this stuff. If they want to subvert my expectation make some damn characters based on fantasy stereotypes. It's so tiresome going into an adventure nowadays and realizing everything is upside down. They are stereotypes for a reason.

You know a few months back someone on Codex here made this topic asking for an RPG where you play as a stereotypical pure-of-heart, God-loving knight who does great deeds and loves the spirit of adventure that comes with it. This sounds like something you should be able to just list twenty games after being woken up from being drunk the night before due to how standard it seems.

But it was actually hard as fuck to think of even just five.

But all you needed to do was name Ultima IV-VII and Underworld I-II. The problem isn't only related to people trying to subvert expectations but also from it's DnD roots. DnD heroes are not knights in shining armor saving the day, they are vagabonds looting old graves to get money and to get more powerful. I think that most DnD adaptations and other classic cRPGs are pretty faithful to that premise.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser are the closest literary approximations for the way stereotypical D&D adventurers are meant to act:

Illustration by David A. Trampier for the AD&D Monster Manual

 

[Caim]

Didn't the very first printing run of Deities & Demigods have a section on Fafhrd & Gray Mouser, which was removed in later runs because the copyright went to a rival RPG company?

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

You're probably thinking of this: https://dmdavid.com/tag/the-true-st...elric-sections-removed-from-deities-demigods/

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

One Grognard weights in on the subject. The guy is called Mr. Welch and is a super interesting individual. He's super into Mystara and has a Youtube chanel dedicated to one thing only: getting people into Mystara. Which is kinda forgotten DnD setting. At least I don't see it discussed very often. He even made free Mystara supplement for 5E. I don't really like this setting but I admire his dedication. He's a bit like these super-dedicated HoMM 3 fans. Making new content for the game over 20 years after the initial release.

 

[HeroMarine]

He's super into Mystara and has a Youtube chanel dedicated to one thing only: getting people into Mystara.

I'm a fan already.

 

[mediocrepoet]

You're probably thinking of this: https://dmdavid.com/tag/the-true-st...elric-sections-removed-from-deities-demigods/

Not sure if it was removed but there were certainly versions of Deities and Demigods with Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser in it. I had one of them back in the day before I sold off almost my entire collection.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Didn't the very first printing run of Deities & Demigods have a section on Fafhrd & Gray Mouser, which was removed in later runs because the copyright went to a rival RPG company?

Fritz Leiber reached an agreement with TSR to publish his Lankhmar board game in 1976, which led to the inclusion of a Nehwon/Lankhmar section in Deities & Demigods (1980) that remained in later printings, the conversion to Legends & Lore, and the conversion to AD&D 2nd edition. Also, to the AD&D Lankhmar City of Adventure book in 1985 and several more Lankhmar AD&D books over the next decade.

Deities & Demigods itself was the AD&D conversion of the original D&D Supplement IV Gods, Demi-gods, and Heroes (1976) by Rob Kuntz & Jim Ward. This booklet contained not only sections on 8 real-world mythologies (Egyptian, Indian, Greek, Celtic, Norse, Finnish, Aztec, and Chinese) but also a Conan/REH section and an Elric/Moorcock section, despite TSR not having the rights to either one. When Jim Ward updated Supplement IV to Deities & Demigods (1980) for AD&D 1st edition, the number of real-world mythologies covered increased to 13 and the Conan/REH section was removed, but the Elric/Moorcock section remained and two more fantasy fiction sections were added, one for Cthulhu/Lovecraft and one for Lankhmar/Leiber (also added was a TSR-original section on non-human deities). The Hyborean section might have been removed due to an awareness of copyright issues, but apparently no-one at TSR realized that not only did TSR lack the legal rights to use Elric/Moorcock and Cthulhu/Lovecraft intellectual property but also that a rival company, Chaosium, had recently acquired these rights. Chaosium reached an agreement with TSR to permit the inclusion of these two sections in Deities & Demigods in exchange for a blurb in the credits stating "Special thanks are also given to Chaosium, Inc. for permission to use the material found in the Cthulhu Mythos and the Melnibonean Mythos.", but nonetheless TSR removed these two sections from later printings (which also added a bit more artwork). Eventually, TSR decided to change the title to Legends & Lore (1984) with a new cover by Jeff Easley, who had also provided new covers for the three core AD&D rulebooks, but the material inside the covers remained exactly the same, i.e. with a section on Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar/Nehwon and a section on "nonhumans' deities" being the only remaining ones that were not real-world mythologies. The AD&D 2nd edition Legends & Lore book (1990) dropped three of the real-world mythologies (Babylonian, Finnish, and Sumerian) as well as the non-human deities section, and also replaced most of the artwork.

 

[Caim]

Didn't the very first printing run of Deities & Demigods have a section on Fafhrd & Gray Mouser, which was removed in later runs because the copyright went to a rival RPG company?

Fritz Leiber reached an agreement with TSR to publish his Lankhmar board game in 1976, which led to the inclusion of a Nehwon/Lankhmar section in Deities & Demigods (1980) that remained in later printings, the conversion to Legends & Lore, and the conversion to AD&D 2nd edition. Also, to the AD&D Lankhmar City of Adventure book in 1985 and several more Lankhmar AD&D books over the next decade.

Deities & Demigods itself was the AD&D conversion of the original D&D Supplement IV Gods, Demi-gods, and Heroes (1976) by Rob Kuntz & Jim Ward. This booklet contained not only sections on 8 real-world mythologies (Egyptian, Indian, Greek, Celtic, Norse, Finnish, Aztec, and Chinese) but also a Conan/REH section and an Elric/Moorcock section, despite TSR not having the rights to either one. When Jim Ward updated Supplement IV to Deities & Demigods (1980) for AD&D 1st edition, the number of real-world mythologies covered increased to 13 and the Conan/REH section was removed, but the Elric/Moorcock section remained and two more fantasy fiction sections were added, one for Cthulhu/Lovecraft and one for Lankhmar/Leiber (also added was a TSR-original section on non-human deities). The Hyborean section might have been removed due to an awareness of copyright issues, but apparently no-one at TSR realized that not only did TSR lack the legal rights to use Elric/Moorcock and Cthulhu/Lovecraft intellectual property but also that a rival company, Chaosium, had recently acquired these rights. Chaosium reached an agreement with TSR to permit the inclusion of these two sections in Deities & Demigods in exchange for a blurb in the credits stating "Special thanks are also given to Chaosium, Inc. for permission to use the material found in the Cthulhu Mythos and the Melnibonean Mythos.", but nonetheless TSR removed these two sections from later printings (which also added a bit more artwork). Eventually, TSR decided to change the title to Legends & Lore (1984) with a new cover by Jeff Easley, who had also provided new covers for the three core AD&D rulebooks, but the material inside the covers remained exactly the same, i.e. with a section on Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar/Nehwon and a section on "nonhumans' deities" being the only remaining ones that were not real-world mythologies. The AD&D 2nd edition Legends & Lore book (1990) dropped three of the real-world mythologies (Babylonian, Finnish, and Sumerian) as well as the non-human deities section, and also replaced most of the artwork.

Neat. The smaller real world pantheons did make a return in On Hallowed Ground for Planescape, which probably was the last time we saw the likes of the Babylonians, Sumerians and Finnish.

Except that Loviatar and Mielikki ended up joining the pantheon in Faerun, so they endure in at least some capacity.

 

[RangerBoo]

After all, the most memorable and interesting characters often explicitly subvert expectations and stereotypes.

Yeah, no. So damn tired of this stuff. If they want to subvert my expectation make some damn characters based on fantasy stereotypes. It's so tiresome going into an adventure nowadays and realizing everything is upside down. They are stereotypes for a reason.

This is all part of the plan by the powers that be to blur the lines between good and evil and to make concepts like evil no longer exist. Instead, evil actions and behavior will only be seen as "subjective". This is all post-modernist bullshit that has infected every facet of entertainment and culture in the past 10 or so years.

 

[deuxhero]

Gave Stirxhaven a read. It's really bad. There's even a character whose entire thing is being trans. Also one character who is Asian and their character is his parents will beat him for academic failing because, never forget, for all their claims SJWs are actually uber racists who can't see people as people. Shit isn't even worth the harddrive space.

Also the art is full of that horrible black demi-human art that's popped up over the last 10 years. It never works, as it always comes off as a real person in an elf (etc.) costume, never an elf that happens to be black. There's a reason the only series in a visual medium that has multiple ethnicities of elves that are all seen prominently (The Elder Scrolls) gives each type of elf distinctly non-human features of its own (Dunmer have all red eyes and ash grey skin with square faces, Altmer have golden skin and normal eyes on faces that are long, sharp and narrow, while Bosmer have black eyes on short and very round faces) rather than try making earth races as elves.

After all, the most memorable and interesting characters often explicitly subvert expectations and stereotypes.

Yeah, no. So damn tired of this stuff. If they want to subvert my expectation make some damn characters based on fantasy stereotypes. It's so tiresome going into an adventure nowadays and realizing everything is upside down. They are stereotypes for a reason.

Really subverting sterotypes is boring. What's interesting is using those stereotypes to take another aspect of the character in an unusual direction.

 

[Cael]

After all, the most memorable and interesting characters often explicitly subvert expectations and stereotypes.

Yeah, no. So damn tired of this stuff. If they want to subvert my expectation make some damn characters based on fantasy stereotypes. It's so tiresome going into an adventure nowadays and realizing everything is upside down. They are stereotypes for a reason.

You know a few months back someone on Codex here made this topic asking for an RPG where you play as a stereotypical pure-of-heart, God-loving knight who does great deeds and loves the spirit of adventure that comes with it. This sounds like something you should be able to just list twenty games after being woken up from being drunk the night before due to how standard it seems.

But it was actually hard as fuck to think of even just five.

But all you needed to do was name Ultima IV-VII and Underworld I-II. The problem isn't only related to people trying to subvert expectations but also from it's DnD roots. DnD heroes are not knights in shining armor saving the day, they are vagabonds looting old graves to get money and to get more powerful. I think that most DnD adaptations and other classic cRPGs are pretty faithful to that premise.

Quest for Glory series?

 

[Larianshill]

There's even a character whose entire thing is being trans.

But that's every trans character.

 

[Berengar]

You're probably thinking of this: https://dmdavid.com/tag/the-true-st...elric-sections-removed-from-deities-demigods/

Here's some of Sandy Peterson talking about it too
https://youtu.be/-Auk-Sd4ZlI

 

[Bara]

Welp some folks on the Dragonlance Nexus released their own pdf to adapt Dragonlance to 5e

Don't care that much for Dragonlance but nice to see people who like the old material and want to use it in 5e are adapting it themselves instead of trusting wotc to do it after that butchery that was the Ravenloft book.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

This has nothing to do with 5E but I thought it was a rather silly read that may be appreciated with your morning crackers.

https://larpnews.org/larps/accessibility-at-larp-and-challenging-the-gatekeeping/

LARP in essence, is a sport. Most LARP’s are boffer or have some element of fitness and dexterity to give someone an edge. Not just physical barriers exist however because LARP can unfortunately gatekeep based on diversity, identity and financial boundaries as well. For the sake of this article let’s explore physical barriers that can separate an individual and deter potential players.

Physical limitations are not an entirely new concept, nor was it ever new in the mediaeval era. If the argument is that a fantasy setting has people who are free from ailment, then there are some plot holes to point out. Dragons or beasts for example can consume someone whole and make you take a death. Spells alone are so powerful that they can cause a lot of dangerous things to happen in the wrong hands. It’s not out of left field to assume someone can lose a limb in combat, be paralyzed from an incident, or have physical limitations due to a curse. The player in question can write a tragic backstory or their character simply was born or developed the disability/limitation like humans today.

The problem isn’t how a character or player is limited, it’s that the accessibility simply isn’t there in the community. If someone is in a wheelchair at a campground, the accessibility is already hard with unpaved terrain. Then factor in the element of combat, stealth, and other disadvantages people might have with an accessibility device. Isolation towards people is already a problem in LARP. With a community and game that is very fitness driven and specialized, it’s very hard for someone to want to join. Why would people take the time to make a world that is easy to manoeuvre and exist in, for the few? It’s an argument people make when we improve accessibility in our society day to day.

Some players might not want to make that effort, but then we fail to realize something important. Disabilities aren’t the only physical limits players can bring to the table. Being overweight, pain issues, asthma and other physical hurdles are all common things people can struggle with at a LARP. Not being the quickest and most nimble, can make you at a horrible disadvantage during the game. It can get frustrating and exhausting to those who simply can’t keep up with constant combat for a whole weekend.

Some LARP’s do have safety and medical staff on hand, thankfully. Generally those staff keep players and NPC’s hydrated and take care of emergency injuries. Unfortunately, that is usually the only thing they take care of. LARP’s generally do not pay their staff, and medical staff are on a volunteer basis. When it comes to the staff’s training, it can range from none to basic first aid. After talking with an individual with a serious physical medical condition, I gathered a statement.

“When the medical staff didn’t check in during any physically demanding fights, it left me feeling worried. I don’t even recall anyone offering me water, but I assume it was because I was meant to ask. I was never told that I had to approach medical staff about an issue. When I wanted to go over a safety concern on my last day, the medical liaison was too busy playing for me to get the chance to talk to them.”

The unfortunate truth of it all is that because medical staff are usually players, they are generally playing. In the defense of the volunteer, they are not a paid professional and the staff to player ratio is large. With my interviewee’s retelling of their experience I learned there was only one staff for all the players and NPCs. Although there are many ways to change this issue, I will explore my idea and alternative in the next few paragraphs.

So, with physical play styles that involve fighting, dexterity, hiding, and other movements people may struggle with, where does that leave us? Although my suggestion might receive some scepticism from LARP communities, and it might just seem too much to the people who are set in their ways, I find a very easy solution to this puzzle.


Tabletop RPG games can tweak things to suit their audiences and don’t have to follow a general format of combat based adventure. LARP organizers also have this sandbox ability, maybe even more than their tabletop counterparts. They can try and make it more of an RP and world building based reward instead of who runs the fastest. Imagine a LARP that wasn’t solely focused on taking down the biggest beast this game? A LARP that had players running shops, trade, food stalls, or blacksmithing. A world where you can perform a show, paint, help build facilities, be a charlatan, or even organize guilds to go on missions you can’t or don’t want to do. Imagine getting EXP based on the experiences you make with other players instead of who hit the fastest and hardest. I am willing to bet that if LARP’s took on this community atmosphere and lowered their combat, that they would have much more players at their door. I also believe it would make fighting less of a chore and more of an in-depth experience for the players that braved the outside. From what I have learned from talking to many people in different paths of LARP, a lot of people that don’t have physical limits also wanted more RP and world building. This approach can help appease old players and make an inviting world for new ones.

Are you a LARPlete?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

LARPers should be bullied and ostracized.

 

[deuxhero]

Welp some folks on the Dragonlance Nexus released their own pdf to adapt Dragonlance to 5e

Don't care that much for Dragonlance but nice to see people who like the old material and want to use it in 5e are adapting it themselves instead of trusting wotc to do it after that butchery that was the Ravenloft book.

Back in 3E era, WotC realized they'd get players to "upgrade" to 3E without having to pay to make anything if they just gave fan groups permission to publish free mechanics updates to the new edition. There's thus content updating Dark Sun, Planescape and some of Birthright.

 

[Morblot]

There's thus content updating Dark Sun, Planescape and some of Birthright.

From what I remember, the 3e Planescape content was generally sound and well done, but since it was set after the Faction War, it wasn't as interesting as the 2e box set fluff. But the blame for this is of course on TSR, not the fans. Didn't they also manage to ruin Dark Sun with their adventures or novels?