D&D 5E Discussion

[Ashen_Shugar]

I'm playing a warlock and jesus fuck this is boring in battle.
- At level 5 I can cast a total of TWO spells.
- Only ONE concentration slot, so no interesting combinations of even those two spells.
- Then it's a boring ass spam of eldritch blast.

How the fuck is this magic?

Any better magic user classes in 5e?

Generally speaking fights tend to last from 2 to 5 rounds, just the nature of the system, 4-5 dudes can kill things very fast, so you dont really need concentration that much.
That said warlocks tend to rely on their gimmick a whole lot, id say they are the most boring casters, and nowhere near the strongest class, but sitting right in the middle of the pack.

If you are chain you will be relying on your familiar to get things done a lot, and its nice to have a disposable invisible minion, even if it dies in one hit, the utility you can get out of the damn thing is staggering. If you are blade you can be a fairly good melee, but you will want levels in a martial class to compliment it.

Noob question re concentration slots. Does that mean that you can have 2 concentration spells cast simultaneously (i've never read the 5e players handbook)? If so why was this not implemented in either Solasta or BG3? Huge dev oversight IMO if that is the case where the combat already feels overly simplified.

Coming from 2/3/3.5 all i can see with 5E is a huge dumbing down of the ruleset (yes in understand it makes tabletop/PC combat quicker but then you also have less intersting builds and combat options as a result). TBH i kind of liked buffing my party before major battles.

Contrast builds/combat in TOEE to Solasta and despite the goodish combat in Solasta it pales in comparison to the more refined options in TOEE.

 

[Bester]

If you are chain you will be relying on your familiar to get things done a lot, and its nice to have a disposable invisible minion, even if it dies in one hit, the utility you can get out of the damn thing is staggering. If you are blade you can be a fairly good melee, but you will want levels in a martial class to compliment it.

I'm grimoire, so I can help with non-combat activities.

Generally speaking fights tend to last from 2 to 5 rounds

A lot of our fights last 2-4 hours, I don't know how many rounds that is, but more. Enemies are hp-bloated.

 

[J1M]

One concentration per character.

If you like party buffing you need to look for buffs like mage armor that doesn't require concentration or ask another party member to use their concentration slot by taking a level of cleric for bless.

 

[Bester]

Noob question re concentration slots. Does that mean that you can have 2 concentration spells cast simultaneously (i've never read the 5e players handbook)?

Does what mean that? There's no such thing as concentration slots in 5e. You only have THE concentration, for ONE spell.
If you cast a second concentration spell, the first one goes away.
It sucks. You can't even have fly + invisibility. It's one or another.

 

[J1M]

If you are chain you will be relying on your familiar to get things done a lot, and its nice to have a disposable invisible minion, even if it dies in one hit, the utility you can get out of the damn thing is staggering. If you are blade you can be a fairly good melee, but you will want levels in a martial class to compliment it.

I'm grimoire, so I can help with non-combat activities.

Generally speaking fights tend to last from 2 to 5 rounds

A lot of our fights last 2-4 hours, I don't know how many rounds that is, but more. Enemies are hp-bloated.

Sounds like questionable character builds or mistakes like healing in combat.

 

[Bester]

It's a roleplaying game, yeah. Nobody has optimized builds in the party, they're roleplaying.
I could have an optimized build. But then how the quests are going to be solved? A lot of the time my character is heavily involved with his non-combat shit. Which if he didn't have, it'd be bad.

 

[Ashen_Shugar]

Noob question re concentration slots. Does that mean that you can have 2 concentration spells cast simultaneously (i've never read the 5e players handbook)?

Does what mean that? There's no such thing as concentration slots in 5e. You only have THE concentration, for ONE spell.
If you cast a second concentration spell, the first one goes away.
It sucks. You can't even have fly + invisibility. It's one or another.

Ah yep that's what i meant and what was implemented in Solasta (i.e. only 1 spell for conentration) -> so all good there. I thought they maybe had omitted a feature of 5E

 

[J1M]

It's a roleplaying game, yeah. Nobody has optimized builds in the party, they're roleplaying.
I could have an optimized build. But then how the quests are going to be solved? A lot of the time my character is heavily involved with his non-combat shit. Which if he didn't have, it'd be bad.

False dichotomy.

A claim like that really needs a specific example. Also, if your team was better at combat, a greater portion of time would be available for the other stuff (which you implied to be more important).

 

[deuxhero]

It's a roleplaying game, yeah. Nobody has optimized builds in the party, they're roleplaying.
I could have an optimized build. But then how the quests are going to be solved? A lot of the time my character is heavily involved with his non-combat shit. Which if he didn't have, it'd be bad.

5E actually expects builds to be optimized, that's what "bonded accuracy" works out to in practice: Either you've hit the cap, getting to the target number, or you're useless.

 

[Alex]

It's a roleplaying game, yeah. Nobody has optimized builds in the party, they're roleplaying.
I could have an optimized build. But then how the quests are going to be solved? A lot of the time my character is heavily involved with his non-combat shit. Which if he didn't have, it'd be bad.

5E actually expects builds to be optimized, that's what "bonded accuracy" works out to in practice: Either you've hit the cap, getting to the target number, or you're useless.

Meh, a +1 or a +2 to hit isn't that big of a deal, especially with a d20.

 

[Alex]

It's a roleplaying game, yeah. Nobody has optimized builds in the party, they're roleplaying.
I could have an optimized build. But then how the quests are going to be solved? A lot of the time my character is heavily involved with his non-combat shit. Which if he didn't have, it'd be bad.

5E actually expects builds to be optimized, that's what "bonded accuracy" works out to in practice: Either you've hit the cap, getting to the target number, or you're useless.

Meh, a +1 or a +2 to hit isn't that big of a deal, especially with a d20.

Sorry, but it is just math. Most of the value that determines whether you hit or not is coming from the dice, not the build. Or, if you want to look at another angle, assume the basic to hit chance of a normal build (one not particularly bad, but not optimised either) to be 60%. If an optimised build would have a +3 bonus on top of that, that is still only an increase of 25% over the original. If you would have gotten, say, 10 shots in during the adventure, with the optimised build you might expect 12 or 13. Not a bad deal, of course; and ultimately could even be the difference between life and death. But it isn't a game changer either.

 

[deuxhero]

It's a roleplaying game, yeah. Nobody has optimized builds in the party, they're roleplaying.
I could have an optimized build. But then how the quests are going to be solved? A lot of the time my character is heavily involved with his non-combat shit. Which if he didn't have, it'd be bad.

5E actually expects builds to be optimized, that's what "bonded accuracy" works out to in practice: Either you've hit the cap, getting to the target number, or you're useless.

Meh, a +1 or a +2 to hit isn't that big of a deal, especially with a d20.

Sorry, but it is just math. Most of the value that determines whether you hit or not is coming from the dice, not the build. Or, if you want to look at another angle, assume the basic to hit chance of a normal build (one not particularly bad, but not optimised either) to be 60%. If an optimised build would have a +3 bonus on top of that, that is still only an increase of 25% over the original. If you would have gotten, say, 10 shots in during the adventure, with the optimised build you might expect 12 or 13. Not a bad deal, of course; and ultimately could even be the difference between life and death. But it isn't a game changer either.

A 30% increase in damage absolutely is a game changer, especially when 5E gives you jack all for secondary attributes (strength determined carrying capacity and nothing else for dex based/caster, intelligence literally does nothing since every intelligence based skill is also trained only, and charisma basically does nothing) anyways.

 

[Alex]

It's a roleplaying game, yeah. Nobody has optimized builds in the party, they're roleplaying.
I could have an optimized build. But then how the quests are going to be solved? A lot of the time my character is heavily involved with his non-combat shit. Which if he didn't have, it'd be bad.

5E actually expects builds to be optimized, that's what "bonded accuracy" works out to in practice: Either you've hit the cap, getting to the target number, or you're useless.

Meh, a +1 or a +2 to hit isn't that big of a deal, especially with a d20.

Sorry, but it is just math. Most of the value that determines whether you hit or not is coming from the dice, not the build. Or, if you want to look at another angle, assume the basic to hit chance of a normal build (one not particularly bad, but not optimised either) to be 60%. If an optimised build would have a +3 bonus on top of that, that is still only an increase of 25% over the original. If you would have gotten, say, 10 shots in during the adventure, with the optimised build you might expect 12 or 13. Not a bad deal, of course; and ultimately could even be the difference between life and death. But it isn't a game changer either.

A 30% increase in damage absolutely is a game changer,

Depends a lot on what your game is like. If combat is not the end all be all of the game, which it shouldn't be if your game is really D&D, it is just something that helps a bit. The points I made still remain; you have the dice mattering more than the build decisions themselves and you have a difference in damage output that, while it might be significant, won't be really the difference between being able to kill a whole different class of creatures. Furthermore, since we are talking about this bounded stuff, if we compare this to 3e, builds meant a whole lot more in that system.

especially when 5E gives you jack all for secondary attributes (strength determined carrying capacity and nothing else for dex based/caster, intelligence literally does nothing since every intelligence based skill is also trained only, and charisma basically does nothing) anyways.

I do agree that if you don't know how to DM this kind of stuff, 5e is not helping you any. But this is ultimately something that is up to DMs to make work rather than something that can be solved by rules alone.

 

[Tyranicon]

Also, you can multiclass to Sorcerer or Paladin and break the game

I don't see it. How does it break the game? Specifically sorcerer, because my warlock is not melee-oriented.

Someone probably answered it already but Sorcadins are crazy strong in 5e.

Let me paint you a picture of how overpowered they can be. In one of my pnp campaigns, at level 12 or so, I ran someone who had >24 AC, could have another +5 AC with shield spell, can twincast (the only way RAW to have two concentration spells at the same time) haste or greater invisibility, had magic resistance, +5 to all saves, can 1-turn kill a lot of things, and a good amount of spell slots.

Sorceror-warlocks (there was a RAW loophole that gave you infinite spell slots but no reasonable DM would allow that) and warlock-paladins (Go bladelock and you're now a single attribute character) are also pretty strong

If you want to utterly break combat and make your DM hate you, roll a sorcadin. Will not disappoint.

 

[Nortar]

If you want to utterly break combat and make your DM hate you, roll a sorcadin. Will not disappoint.

That's where PnP should blow any CRPG out of the water.
If a DM can not challenge his players, it's a shit DM. Don't play with shit DMs.

It's not always about strait numbers comparison.
Get fucking creative and find a way to humiliate your uber-munchinks with a bunch of lame kobolds.

 

[Tyranicon]

If you want to utterly break combat and make your DM hate you, roll a sorcadin. Will not disappoint.

That's where PnP should blow any CRPG out of the water.
If a DM can not challenge his players, it's a shit DM. Don't play with shit DMs.

It's not always about strait numbers comparison.
Get fucking creative and find a way to humiliate your uber-munchinks with a bunch of lame kobolds.

The problem is the DM has to balance combat around more casual roleplay enjoyers, and asshole powergamers like me.

Leading to situations where you're fighting completely different monster lists than the rest of the party. Which is fair because y'know, power gaming deserves unique consequences.

 

[deuxhero]

especially when 5E gives you jack all for secondary attributes (strength determined carrying capacity and nothing else for dex based/caster, intelligence literally does nothing since every intelligence based skill is also trained only, and charisma basically does nothing) anyways.

I do agree that if you don't know how to DM this kind of stuff, 5e is not helping you any. But this is ultimately something that is up to DMs to make work rather than something that can be solved by rules alone.

Then why the fuck do you even bother with a ruleset if basic things need GM fiat?

 

[Nortar]

If you want to utterly break combat and make your DM hate you, roll a sorcadin. Will not disappoint.

That's where PnP should blow any CRPG out of the water.
If a DM can not challenge his players, it's a shit DM. Don't play with shit DMs.

It's not always about strait numbers comparison.
Get fucking creative and find a way to humiliate your uber-munchinks with a bunch of lame kobolds.

The problem is the DM has to balance combat around more casual roleplay enjoyers, and asshole powergamers like me.

Leading to situations where you're fighting completely different monster lists than the rest of the party. Which is fair because y'know, power gaming deserves unique consequences.

If it's difficult to escalate challenge up to your toughest guy, without massacring the rest, you can try to bring everyone down a notch.

For example, just a bunch of options, lead your you party into a swamp, where paladin's heavy armor would be a hindrance.

Difficult terain, reduced mobility. Maybe no bonus actions.
Mosquito bites in places they can't scratch.
Make your armored guys to disrobe or suffer.
Homerule that shit if you have to.

Turn on fog or vapors or something, so they can't see anything and hence can't use reaction to cast Shield.

Sick kobolds on them, always from different sides and with hit and run tactics.
Never standing to trade blow for blow, just shooting poison arrows and hiding back into the fog.
Focus the munchikin and make a little lame annoyingly-giggling kobold his arch-fucking-nemesis.

Tire and soften the party up, so they can't rest and recover spell slots and powers.
Keep pestering them during short rest.
And finish them off while the swamp is filled with echo of kobolds triumphant cackling.

 

[Alex]

especially when 5E gives you jack all for secondary attributes (strength determined carrying capacity and nothing else for dex based/caster, intelligence literally does nothing since every intelligence based skill is also trained only, and charisma basically does nothing) anyways.

I do agree that if you don't know how to DM this kind of stuff, 5e is not helping you any. But this is ultimately something that is up to DMs to make work rather than something that can be solved by rules alone.

Then why the fuck do you even bother with a ruleset if basic things need GM fiat?

I agree, I don't think 5e is worth bothering about.

That said, even a better system needs a lot of DM fiat to play. If it wasn't so, you would be better off playing a computer game.

 

[Lhynn]

A lot of our fights last 2-4 hours, I don't know how many rounds that is, but more. Enemies are hp-bloated.

Maybe you guys are just a bit on the slow side, mentally, or the party is composed of a bunch of cripples, or the DM is doing something wrong, like giving unreasonable hp or unreasonably high AC to your enemies. The system isnt designed for long fights, damage racks up really damn fast.

Any martial will be able to kill anything their level in a couple turns at most.

 

[JamesDixon]

especially when 5E gives you jack all for secondary attributes (strength determined carrying capacity and nothing else for dex based/caster, intelligence literally does nothing since every intelligence based skill is also trained only, and charisma basically does nothing) anyways.

I do agree that if you don't know how to DM this kind of stuff, 5e is not helping you any. But this is ultimately something that is up to DMs to make work rather than something that can be solved by rules alone.

Then why the fuck do you even bother with a ruleset if basic things need GM fiat?

Why bother with a GM when you have rules?

This what we call a false dichotomy. You need both rules and the GM to adjudicate those rules.

 

[J1M]

Many of 5e's problems come from its primary design goal: appear different than 4e.

The advantages 4e had in encounter design and DM tools were swept aside in favor of making the layout look different.

Since someone will ask for examples, I will say minions, bloodied condition, monster roles, and stat block layout as examples.

 

[deuxhero]

Those are issues, plenty of games incorporated the good ideas without 4E's offline MMO retardation, but there are bigger issuess from 5E's own retarded choices.

• bounded accuracy
• feats and multiclassing being variant rules so there's no actual customization
• most feats being worthless before attribute cap because of bounded accuracy so there's even less customization
• most attributes not actually doing anything without class abilities
• officially doing away with wealth recommendations while still adhering to a clear schedule of magic items in all official adventures meaning its still there and just more opaque and as DM you have to just know this schedule or screw your players over more due to behind on bounded accuracy
• growth for non-casters being less than linear due to them losing growth speed once they hit the attribute cap (a fighter's fighting ability actually grows slower once he has capped strength)
• keeping casters growing exponentially despite martials having less than linear growth
• trying to cope with the brokeness of bounded accuracy giving higher CR foes more HP and more HP alone
• wrapping all battlefield tactical advantages (flanking, net, inflicting conditions onto opponent etc.) into non-stacking advantage/disadvantage so tactics are pointless
• giving blatant favorism to whatever races the devs thought were cool while just tossing useless abilities on ones they "had" to print because they're part of the brand.
• making all races that don't give a bonus to a class's primary attribute useless because they're behind on bounded accuracy
• did I mention bounded accuracy was a retarded idea that forces players into the one true build and and harshly punishes deviation making 90% of apparent options traps

 

[Alex]

I know the codex is known as a hive of scum and villainy... But people who think 4e did anything right must be a new low.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I know the codex is known as a hive of scum and villainy... But people who think 4e did anything right must be a new low.

In Kaliyuga even 4e will have its proponents