D&D 5E Discussion

[LeStryfe79]

I work that night.

 

[J1M]

I would be interested in playing, although I would prefer to see the start time shifted a little later in the day.

 

[ProphetSword]

I'm definitely interested to hear how a different group affects your opinion. If you were playing with people who only noticed what was missing from the system due to their love of Pathfinder, I can see why you didn't have an ideal experience. It may not be the game for that particular group, but it would be nice to know if you think the system improves if you play with someone who isn't looking for things that aren't there.

 

[Spectacle]

And I mean HARD cap. the DMG isn't out, so I don't know if they removed +ability belts/gloves/boots and whatnot. But the Bulls Strength/Bears Constitution/Cat's Grace/Fox's Cunning/eagles Splendour/Owls Wisdom ability buff spells have been purged from all classes spell lists in the PHB.

I thought I read somewhere that they had gone back to the 1st/2nd edition way of doing things, where certain items would give you a set score instead of a bonus to that score. So, wearing a Girdle of Hill Giant Strength might give you a Strength score of 22 instead of a +2 bonus to the attribute (or whatever bonus it might have given). If you already had a Strength of 23 somehow, it wouldn't do anything for you.

That's exactly how they work.
The starter set adventure

Spoiler

has a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre power as loot, and they the wearer's strength to 19. So it won't do muchl for a character that's leveling STR at every opportunity, but for most other characters it will make their melee attacks a lot more powerful.

 

[Night Goat]

So if they are so rare that nobody will sell their magic items yet at the same time few people are rich enough to buy them... what, trading magic items has become akin to our world's market for art of long-dead masters?

5e is set in a world where magic items have infinite value if the players are trying to buy them, and no value if the players are trying to sell them. It's fucking retarded.

 

[Mastermind]

Andhaira sends his regards:

We should have brought Andhaira back for today.

Andhaira sent me and several other posters a private message last night. Its contents:

Spoiler

Sorry for the PM folks but I can't take the bullcrap Ulminati is spouting in the D&D 5e thread.

This is perhaps the best edition of D&D. Many of his points are after just skimming the PHB, it's very clear he hasn't really read it. Also, he has an agenda and a preconceived notion of the game.

For instance, this game runs faster than 3e. Hit points for PCs are the same, except Wizards and Sorcs who get a d6 HD. Damage is also either the same, or greater. I have no idea where he is getting the higher hp and lower damage crap from.
The advantage/disadvantage mechanic is designed to greatly expedite play and reduce bookkeeping.

Furthermore, martial PCs like Paladins/Rangers/Barbs get only a max of 2 attacks per round at level 20, special abilities from subclasses aside unlike 3e and PF where all fighting classes get 4 attacks by level 20. However, damage dealt by PCs is just as high or higher due to bounded accuracy (meaning you will mostly hit with your attacks, unlike 3e and PF where you mostly whiff after the first attack due to the massive -5 to each attack after the first as well as high ACs of same level CR enemies) and also the special abilities and spells of classes. The Paladin for instant (which is a GREAT class this time around, unlike 3e) can unload Smites AND special smite spells in the same round. The damage for his smites depends on which level spell slot he burns. The spell smite damage also depends on which level spell it is. Furthermore, the smite is only expended/spell slot burned if the attack hits. This allows the Paladin to unload massive damage in a single round AND that attack WILL hit.

The above greatly reduces bookkeeping also as well as has less dice rolled, resulting in faster combat.

Spellcasters: Casting spells in D&D and it's variants has never been better or more fun and fulfilling. No more Wizard memorizing useless spells. Now, Wizards and Sorcs 'prepare' a certain number of spells depending on ability mod and class level. Then they can cast these spells using their limited spell slots. It's kind of like the 3e sorceror, except you can prepare many more spells/have more spells known and you have more spell slots to cast them with than the 3e sorceror. So now you can prepare cool utility spells like Hold Portal and Featherfall without feeling like you are just wasting a memorization slot or spell known slot for a spell you will hardly ever use.

Furthermore, this time around all spells are ALWAYS useful. This is because every spell of any level can be cast using a higher level slot to have a much greater effect. Magic Missile at level 1 slot casts 3 missile of 1d4+1 damage each. For each higher level slot burned instead of the first level slot the wizard casts 1 additional missile. If the wizard burns a 3rd level slot he fires off 5 missiles (and yes that is one less 3rd level slot he could use for fireball. But he can cast fireball using a 4th level slot if he wants to do more damage, etc) If the Wizard burns a 9th level slot to cast MM he launches 11 missiles! Nearly every single spell of the Wizard/Sorc/Warlock/Druid/Cleric can be enhanced this way. Some Paladin and Ranger spells can also be enhanced this way. Pally and Ranger get mostly unique spells though (the ranger has kind of an Arcane Archer spell list this time around, which is kinda weird but hey. RA Salvatore is likely banging his head against a wall though ) This also means only one spell of a type be needed to be prepared, like a Cleric only needs one cure spell at level 1 to be prepared, and can then cast it using any level slot to get a higher effect. Also, the prepared spells can be of any level, you could prepare only spells of levels 8 and 9 if you wished.

There are interesting 'balance' mechanics they used to tone down spell casters this time around. For instance, they get more lower level slots, but less higher level slots. Only 1 level 9 spell slot, for instance. But level 9 spells are game changers, like Wish. However, while this is good for letting martial classes shine too instead of a wizard cleaning up the battlefield every time, this results in more flavorful utility and creative uses of magic, which is something I really like. Spells like the aforementioned Hold Portal for example. No one bothered to memorize or learn it in 3e/Pathfinder, but this time you can have your Wizard/Sorc/Warlock have it always prepared in case you ever need to use it. And yes, Wizards can swap out their prepared spells via their spellbooks.

Wizards have the greatest number of spells known due to spellbooks, and unique school specializations. School specs actually mean something this time, a Necormancer Wizard is actually, for the first time, a better Necromancer than the Cleric. Finally. Sorcerers get metamagic they apply on the fly. They are the only ones to get metamagic. They also get heritages (aka bloodlines like the Draconic Heritage) Both have identical # of spell slots.

Also spellcasters can only have one persistent spell effect at a time due to the great new 'Concentration' mechanic. No more buffing the party before every battle, now a single spell caster can only have 1 buff active at any time. This applies to not just buffs but any spells requiring concentration, like a summoning spell or stoneskin, etc.

And cantrips, cantrips are awesome. And at will. And they are the only spells to scale with level automatically, so you always have those to fall back on and can do decent damage at any level. No more will your powerful archmage resort to plinking away with a crossbow, or a fucking sling.

Feats you get much fewer this time around but each feat is worth 3 feats of 3e. A feat is a character changer, each feat defines something about the character. In a sense, a combat oriented feat can be like a combat style for a character. Some feats are basically mini Prestige Classes of 3e (Arcane Archer for instance was a feat in the playtest, it didn't make it in the PHB but I think they will show it in a future splat)

Races are very well done. No more negatives, no more ECLs. And they give lots of options. Some special abilities of the more powerful races come into play at higher levels and that's pretty cool. Much better than retarded ECLs. I do miss 4e racial feats though. I also like how the races are not completely balanced, the Tiefling for instance is the most powerful race in terms of raw power. Appropriate IMO that a race descended from demons and with demon blood should be more powerful than a fucking hobbit (halfling). All races are cool though.

There is much more emphasis on lore now. Classes have their own lore instead of just descriptions. There are backgrounds, which are full of flavor and offer useful non combat abilities/skills/tool proficiencies. While I do wish background special abilities were more...well deeper and influential, I do admire that no background ability will ever have a direct combat related bonus. It's pretty cool and encourages even min maxing munchkins to think a bit about how their character fits into the world, and where he/she comes from.

Paladins are AWESOME. Finally. This can't be stressed enough. They are out of the Fighter's and Cleric's shadow and their own thing now. (They were super cool in 4e too, but of course 4e is a completely different beast.)

Reliance on magic items is gone. The math no longer assumes any magic items, so the ones you do get are bonuses. Thus MA are supposed to be rare, and you can play without any magic items at all at any level. (haven't tested this yet though)

Complete Immunities to weapons are gone. Finally. They are replaced by resistances. So a creature could have resistance to edged weapons, meaning swords do half damage against them. Same with spells. Spell resistance no longer grants complete immunity to magic, your spells just have disadvantage. Resistance to specific elements like Fire means fire spells do half damage. Powerful creatures like Dragons have multiple resistances....but they can still be hurt by mundane weapons. So it does seem to strongly imply you don't need magic weapons, you can play low magic Black Company type campaigns.

No idea about potion spamming, as potions and wands will be in the DMG that hasn't come out yet.

Dragons no longer cast spells!! Just like in 4e. This is a great change from 3e and PF, as dragons being super sorcerers in addition to being immensly strong and having a powerful breath weapon and super spell resistance was always retarded. Also creatures like Dragons have Lair actions, and regional lair actions. So a red dragon could cause a mini volcano to erupt in it's lair, or the entire land around the lair of an ancient red dragon could subtly shift to suit the red dragon. very thematic and flavorful. I love it.

Anyhow, that's enough for now. There is plenty I haven't covered. Suffice to say 5e is fast, fun and efficient to run. Much better than 3e and PF. This is the most playtested version of D&D ever, with more than 2 years of massive public playtesting that was open to anyone and everyone in the world for free. That's why you will only get a good grasp of how the game play if you actually play, since more than any edition it is designed to be played and not just read. Things you don't get while reading or you think are too gamey will make much more sense when you actually play the damn game. (like why does the Fighter and the Wizard have the same proficiency aka attack/skill/save bonus?) Also, the monster manual hasn't even been released yet!

Please one of you post this in the D&D5e thread since I am still banned from posting in the forums, just so Ulminati doesn't chase anyone from playing a fine game!

I'm not going to post it where he wanted me to, because his points are all stupid.

 

[Mrowak]

So if they are so rare that nobody will sell their magic items yet at the same time few people are rich enough to buy them... what, trading magic items has become akin to our world's market for art of long-dead masters?

5e is set in a world where magic items have infinite value if the players are trying to buy them, and no value if the players are trying to sell them. It's fucking retarded.

Nah, they are so rare and expensive there is simply no established market for them. Selling them is not as simple as walking into store and exchanging them for moneyz. It's akin to trying to sell gemstones when there are no jewellers around.

I quite like the idea - it desaturates the campaign from magic trash overbloat, while making rewards meaningful.

 

[Night Goat]

I quite like the idea - it desaturates the campaign from magic trash overbloat, while making rewards meaningful.

It really doesn't make rewards meaningful, because all the money you find and all the magic items your characters can't or won't use are utterly worthless. After you get your mundane full plate - if you even want it - all the money in the world will be worthless to you, because you can't buy anything that matters. I don't mind making magic items less common, but this is the worst and laziest way they possibly could have done that.

 

[hakuroshi]

Houserules are you friends here.

 

[Night Goat]

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oberoni_Fallacy

The Oberoni Fallacy (also called the Rule 0 Fallacy) is the erroneous argument that the rules of a game aren't flawed because they can be ignored, or one or more "house rules" can be made as exceptions.

The argument is logically unsound, because it supposes something isn't broken if it can be fixed. If the rule is not broken, it shouldn't need to be fixed.

People buy products so they don't have to make those products themselves. DMs shouldn't have to make up rules for something that every PC is going to want to do, just because 4e's Mike Mearls couldn't be bothered.

 

[ED-209]

It really doesn't make rewards meaningful, because all the money you find and all the magic items your characters can't or won't use are utterly worthless. After you get your mundane full plate - if you even want it - all the money in the world will be worthless to you, because you can't buy anything that matters. I don't mind making magic items less common, but this is the worst and laziest way they possibly could have done that.

Assuming that the best mundane equipment is available right off the bat at low prices.

Getting my 5e Handbook in a few days, joining a local group in a week and a half. Neckbeard should be ready by then. Will report to glorious Codex for great justice.

 

[nikolokolus]

Money always has uses: Bribe officials, build a stronghold, purchase controlling interest in a trading caravan, or raise an army and overthrow the local governing authority.

As for removing "ye olde magick shoppe" from the rules, that doesn't mean that a group can't decide that they want to play that way and I'm sure many will add it back in, but it's something that never should have been made the default; it wasn't much fun during a 4e game being lectured by a rules lawyer that I had to allow a player to buy a certain magic item because the rules said they had enough money to do it. Good riddance.

 

[Night Goat]

Assuming that the best mundane equipment is available right off the bat at low prices.

We already know the prices of mundane equipment. The most expensive, by far, is plate mail at 1500 gp. The next most expensive is breastplate, at 400 gp. It might take you a few levels, but not many.

Money always has uses: Bribe officials, build a stronghold, purchase controlling interest in a trading caravan, or raise an army and overthrow the local governing authority.

None of those things are really exciting, in the way that getting a noticeable increase in power or versatility is. You don't care about bribing officials because they're mere mortals, you don't care about building a stronghold because most campaigns aren't set in one location and the benefits are negligible anyway, you don't care about trading caravans because money is useless, and you won't be raising an army because mass combat rules have always been terrible.

And no group will be bother adding magic shops into this, because they'll just go back to playing Pathfinder as soon as the honeymoon phase is over.

 

[Night Goat]

Look at this shit:

Spoiler

A CR 2 creature, with a save-or-die that targets INT, in the edition where INT is a dump stat for everyone who isn't a wizard. Mearls and co. aren't even trying.

 

[nikolokolus]

I hear you. It's like they cut the poor bastard's balls off and put it in a tutu.

From the AD&D 1st ed. Monster Manual:

INTELLECT DEVOURER

NO. ENCOUNTERED: 1-2
SIZE: Medium
HD: 6D6+6
MOVE: 34 ft
AC: 16
ATTACKS: 4 (Claws) 1D4
SPECIAL: See Below
SAVES: M
INT: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
TYPE: Aberration
TREASURE: 4
XP: 1510+8 per HP
PSlONlC ABILITY: 200
Attack/Defense Modes: CE/FG

The intellect devourer is one of the most feared of monsters. They are found dwelling deep beneath the ground or in dark and dismal lairs in the wilderness. Although they are able to attack with their great claws, their primary offensive means is psionic, for they subsist on the psychic energy of their prey - whether gained from the dying shriek or by more subtle means.

If psionic energy (from abilities or magical means) is in use nearby (60ft) they will stalk the user, seeking a time to attack him alone and by surprise. The monster then leaps upon his victim, tearing with his claws and psionically attacking with ego whip or id insinuation. If psionically successful the ‘devourer will then house itself within the mindless body, seeking to deceive others by assuming the character of the person it has slain. The intellect devourer will then seek opportunities to attack and devour others. They are able to hide in shadow as well as a 10th level Rogue. Normal weapons and mostspells have no effect upon these monsters. Magical weapons +3 or more cause 1 point of damage upon them when they hit.

Bright light will drive them off, and a protection from evil will keep them at a distance. Fireballs serve only as a bright light, but lightning bolts will cause them pain and some small damage (1 point per die of lightning bolt strength). A spell that causes instant death has a 25% chance of success, and a power word kill will slay them. Of course,they can be psionically attacked, and their psionic strength of 200 totalmakes this not too difficult. However, if seriously threatened they will seek to flee and save themselves.

Their awareness extends to the astral and ethereal planes, and intellect devourers often roam the astral and ethereal planes. They are able speak any human language

 

[nikolokolus]

Hmm ... I just realized I fucked up; on second glance, that stat block doesn't look right. The blogger that posted that as 1st ed. stats is a lying liar. I'll have to dig out my old MM tomorrow and look it up.

 

[Ulminati]

So if they are so rare that nobody will sell their magic items yet at the same time few people are rich enough to buy them... what, trading magic items has become akin to our world's market for art of long-dead masters?

5e is set in a world where magic items have infinite value if the players are trying to buy them, and no value if the players are trying to sell them. It's fucking retarded.

I think it's more like a world in which magic items are advanced fighter jets. They aren't easy to obtain. And if you somehow get your hands on one, you can't easily find a buyer for it because not many people have a use for them or the means to buy one. And because they're such complex items that require a shitload of r&d and testing to build, shops don't exist where they're custom made to order.

Andhaira sends his regards:

[snip]

 

[hakuroshi]

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Oberoni_Fallacy

The Oberoni Fallacy (also called the Rule 0 Fallacy) is the erroneous argument that the rules of a game aren't flawed because they can be ignored, or one or more "house rules" can be made as exceptions.

The argument is logically unsound, because it supposes something isn't broken if it can be fixed. If the rule is not broken, it shouldn't need to be fixed.

People buy products so they don't have to make those products themselves. DMs shouldn't have to make up rules for something that every PC is going to want to do, just because 4e's Mike Mearls couldn't be bothered.

<shrug> Absence of magic shops does not make DnD5 unplayable. If it does for you, don't buy it, don't play it. That simple. And while there may be a rule 0 you quoted, there always was a rule 1 for DMing - if you don't like the rule - change it. The magical shops existed in previous editions and PF but most groups I played with did not allow tem or severely restricted.

That aside - there is always be a problem when the game system tries to explicitly define a setting. Game system define how to play, setting what to play. The presence or absence of magic market is a setting specific issue, core game mechanic material should not bother with it.

 

[Night Goat]

So if they are so rare that nobody will sell their magic items yet at the same time few people are rich enough to buy them... what, trading magic items has become akin to our world's market for art of long-dead masters?

5e is set in a world where magic items have infinite value if the players are trying to buy them, and no value if the players are trying to sell them. It's fucking retarded.

I think it's more like a world in which magic items are advanced fighter jets. They aren't easy to obtain. And if you somehow get your hands on one, you can't easily find a buyer for it because not many people have a use for them or the means to buy one. And because they're such complex items that require a shitload of r&d and testing to build, shops don't exist where they're custom made to order.

But a magic item isn't a fighter jets. Fighter jets require a lot of maintenance, a lot of fuel and a lot of training to use, and in the hands of private owners are basically toys. A magic sword can be used by anyone who can use a sword, and may save the wielder's life. So, the demand will be higher, and you will easily find someone who wants to buy one.

 

[ProphetSword]

What I find retarded (since that word is being thrown around a lot) is that some people seem to think that magical items are mass-produced goods created in wizard sweat shops and factories, and then shuffled off to the local "Ye Old Wal-Mart O' Magic" that appears on every street corner. Magical items are supposed to be rare and valuable. The notion that you can pop down to the nearest shop and pick up a +5 Vorpal Greatsword is idiotic, and it's one of the worst ideas to come out of the 3E/4E mindset. Magical items have been devalued to the point where I've heard stories of player's tossing +3 weapons into junk piles.

Magical items have no market because they are rare commodities. When you find one, why would you sell it? In the campaign I just finished running, the party found a total of five items during the game. They never considered selling any of them, since every one of them was useful in some way to someone in the party. The idea that the party should be finding truckloads of magical items after a fight is just stupid. But, even if they did decide to sell it, who would they sell it to? The townsfolk in the local fishing villages don't have thousands of gold pieces lying around. Shopkeepers would only want to invest that kind of money into something if they were sure they could get a return on their value, and since nearly nothing else they sell would cost that much, it isn't guaranteed. Sure, a shopkeeper will take that enchanted sword off your hands for 100 gold if you want, but are you going to take amount when you could be using it?

And when it comes to money, not enough credit is being given to players. When magical items are no longer available as something they can buy at the corner bakery, they find other uses for their money. Opening shops, building strongholds, setting up temples or monasteries, investing in the local tavern, bribing officials, and hiring help in the form of men-at-arms and sages. If they hear tales of a magical item, they can quest for it. The amount of money an item costs in the DMG shouldn't be the amount that a character can go in and plop down on a counter, it should represent how much money they spend on funding an expedition to find an item after they hear about, in both consulting sages, buying old maps, hiring scouts, traveling costs and a number of other things.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Buying and selling magic items was one of the biggest problems many old timers had with WotC D&D, so it makes sense that they took it out. Anyway, there will definitely be optional rules for it. At the earliest, we'll see them in the DMG, and at the latest we'll see them by Eberron. It's also one of the easiest rules to house rule in. Simply make the challenges 25% harder and halve the XP rewards. I would occasionally have an extraplanar merchant who sold rare objects show up in my AD&D games. It worked out okay.

 

[ProphetSword]

Buying and selling magic items was one of the biggest problems many old timers had with WotC D&D, so it makes sense that they took it out. Anyway, there will definitely be optional rules for it. At the earliest, we'll see them in the DMG, and at the latest we'll see them by Eberron. It's also one of the easiest rules to house rule in. Simply make the challenges 25% harder and halve the XP rewards. I would occasionally have an extraplanar merchant who sold rare objects show up in my AD&D games. It worked out okay.

There's a huge difference between having an occasional dealer in magical items make an appearance with one or two things the party might buy and the idea that magic can be bought on every street corner from homeless bums looking for a fix of ale. Even I had the occasional traveling merchant who would sell a +2 magical sword that he mysteriously acquired along the way. The difference is between the DM having control of the game and the magic item economy and players getting to cherry-pick which items they want from level 1 as part of their build.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Buying and selling magic items was one of the biggest problems many old timers had with WotC D&D, so it makes sense that they took it out. Anyway, there will definitely be optional rules for it. At the earliest, we'll see them in the DMG, and at the latest we'll see them by Eberron. It's also one of the easiest rules to house rule in. Simply make the challenges 25% harder and halve the XP rewards. I would occasionally have an extraplanar merchant who sold rare objects show up in my AD&D games. It worked out okay.

There's a huge difference between having an occasional dealer in magical items make an appearance with one or two things the party might buy and the idea that magic can be bought on every street corner from homeless bums looking for a fix of ale. Even I had the occasional traveling merchant who would sell a +2 magical sword that he mysteriously acquired along the way. The difference is between the DM having control of the game and the magic item economy and players getting to cherry-pick which items they want from level 1 as part of their build.

I just liked having an excuse to roll a few time on The Encyclopedia Magica's tables. It's a slippery slope though.

 

[Ulminati]

Making custom magic items that don't necessairely follow the rules is fun!
Ages ago - in an Eberron campaign - I gave the partys battlecleric a maul. (Upscaled warhammer. 1d10 blunt damage, 20 x2 crit, 2-handed). It was a regular +1 weapon that, if it scored a critical hit, would knock the target back as if the weilder had made a bullrush attempt. The party had no way of identifying it (no arcane caster) and they ended up using it without IDing it, assuming it was a regular +1 weapon.

The maul ended up triggering for the first time while the party was trying to subdue an enemy for interrogation. They were on a bridge. The cleric rolled a 20 on his mandatory bull rush attempt for the maul. Evil McNasty got knocked off the bridge, about 100m down and hit the rocks below. Good thing the cleric had memorized speak with dead.

 

[J1M]

Identify and arcana checks can often remove the sense of danger and fun from the table. I would like to see someone write a sidebar that strips all spells and abilities from the game that give players meta-knowledge.

I don't think it would be difficult, but it would be nice to have as a reference.

Ironically, I don't think such a rule variant would work in a CRPG, as many players (myself included) would assume the unexpected bahavior to be buggy code.