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Roguey

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Come on Roguey, we're still waiting for solid proof that those elements stem from a cargo cult approach...

As for Risen 2, it is in many ways not representative of the four games that predated it. Criticize Gothic 2 instead.
Comparing the Witcher to Bioware games is arbitrary, but no less than you deciding upon your cargo cult conspiracy theory i'll give you that.
Divine Divinity on the other hand suffers from being a paradox : one foot in the H'n'S, the other in the living, open world territory, resulting in a world of half-solutions. DD2 is also very actiony, but its expansion pack is a true piece of CRPG, where lore, world building and quest branching are totally intermingled. Granted, for OS they've yet to prove they can transpose that to a more open world though (Flames of Vengeance is only a hub).
All right. The Gothic series is a German take on Ultima. The control scheme for the first one is incomprehensible. How could anyone who knew what they were doing possibly go with that? The answer must be because they didn't.

Divinity 2's ability upgrade system is equally incomprehensible, with many outright useless upgrades and an unpredictable, inconsistent progression. The rebalance moved a bunch of numbers around but didn't fix any of that, leading me to believe no one had any idea what they were doing.
 

FeelTheRads

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emotwords5pe.gif
 

Cosmo

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Project: Eternity
The answer must be because they didn't. (...) leading me to believe no one had any idea what they were doing.

Exactly as before : still only worthless opinions regarding the cause. No proof of what you said earlier.
Had you an ounce of intellectual honesty you would have begun with the fact that those games are still trying to bridge the gap between action and RPG without the means to achieve that, nor the funds to do something else...
 
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Roguey

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The answer must be because they didn't. (...) leading me to believe no one had any idea what they were doing.

Exactly as before : still only worthless opinions regarding the cause. No proof of what you said earlier.
Had you an ounce of intellectual honesty you would have begun with the fact that those games are still trying to bridge the gap between action and RPG without the means to achieve that, nor the funds to do something else...
It's bad design, not budget. Obsidian's DS3 is an example of a seven-digit budget game with a character system and melee action mechanics that make sense.
 

Cosmo

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It's bad design, not budget. Obsidian's DS3 is an example of a seven-digit budget game with a character system and melee action mechanics that make sense.

Yeah. You'll have to give other examples than this profundly mediocre, bland, forgettable game (god knows i tried to like it though). DKS was imperfect but ten times more fun.
 

Roguey

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Yeah. You'll have to give other examples than this profundly mediocre, bland, forgettable game (god knows i tried to like it though). DKS was imperfect but ten times more fun.
Div2 had funny dialogue and some decent exploration in the first hub but the core gameplay was extraordinarily awful.
 

Cosmo

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Project: Eternity
It was a bit of a mess and not very well balanced one, but numerous level ups enabled you to try different things and find the right combination without missing out much (a lot of powers didn't have to be maxed to be worthwhile for example), and with the right powers you could at least breeze through the chore of the combat-only zones. And despite that the game was still fun.
DS3 may be more elegant from an abstract game design perspective, but it was unfun and dull through and through.
 

Roguey

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find the right combination
This is bad.
with the right powers you could at least breeze through the chore of the combat-only zones.
Also bad.
And despite that the game was still fun.
When the fun things about your game aren't related to gameplay there's no point in making it a game.
DS3 may be more elegant from an abstract game design perspective, but it was unfun and dull through and through.
It was fun for Josh Sawyer and me, game connoisseurs both. :smug:
 

FeelTheRads

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Obsidian's DS3 is an example of a seven-digit budget game with a character system and melee action mechanics that make sense.

DS3 is shit compared to any Gothic or Divinity game. In fact, it's shit all on its own.
 

Cosmo

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It was fun for Josh Sawyer and me, game connoisseurs both. :smug:

Still no proof, only opinions, petitio principii and authoritative arguments. All of those mean nothing in an argumentation, a thing that even you should know.
 

Roguey

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It was fun for Josh Sawyer and me, game connoisseurs both. :smug:

Still no proof, only opinions, petitio principii and authoritative arguments. All of those mean nothing in an argumentation, a thing that even you should know.
I've already listed reasons why Euro-games are bad and why DS3 is good. Can I identify a path of intent? Then good game. No? Bad game made by European amateurs trying to ape what Americans have done.

Now the Japanese, they aped American crpgs cargo cult-style and eventually made them their own to produce good games. Euros could learn something from them.
 

Cosmo

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Yeah, you had your chance of giving proofs instead of lists, that's the point. And you thought me talking to you meant i didn't see your hypocrisy. :roll:
 

Rake

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Yeah, you had your chance of giving proofs instead of lists, that's the point. And you thought me talking to you meant i didn't see your hypocrisy. :roll:
It's more that if the path of intent isn't for the second by second "core gameplay" Roguey simply dismiss it as irrelevant.
 

Cosmo

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Project: Eternity
Show's over as far as i'm concerned.
 
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DeepOcean

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The answer must be because they didn't. (...) leading me to believe no one had any idea what they were doing.

Exactly as before : still only worthless opinions regarding the cause. No proof of what you said earlier.
Had you an ounce of intellectual honesty you would have begun with the fact that those games are still trying to bridge the gap between action and RPG without the means to achieve that, nor the funds to do something else...
It's bad design, not budget. Obsidian's DS3 is an example of a seven-digit budget game with a character system and melee action mechanics that make sense.
While I appretiate Obsidian's initiative to make the combat a little more fluid and dangerous than most Diablo clones . DS 3 was still a case of the developers trying to make a Diablo clone for the consoles and failing to understand how a Diablo clone Works. The combat was more fluid than other Diablo clones but at the higher difficulty levels, it broke entirely as some bosses could easily one shot you and the only real deffense you had was to roll alot (unless you played with the gypsy girl that could murder everything at long range anyway), turning the fights into let's roll in circles while the life regenerate what was terrible. The skill system: The skill system is very unbalanced, there is a big lack of imagination on the skills implementation, the skills feel kinda samey and most passive ones felt a little too underpowered to make a difference, the characters have a really overpowered skill or a skill easy enough to spam that make all the others useless. The looting system is uninspired. I didn't really allowed for alot of diferent character builds. It felt like a casual Diablo clone and one uninspired at that.

I played mainly the warrior guy, he has 3 offensive skills, one where he does a big swipe with his two handed sword, one where he charge and shield bash enemies and another one where he does an aoe attack. The two handed attack does more damage but has a very limited range that makes it only useful at the beginning of the game where the enemies don't hit that hard, the aoe attack is powerful but require 2 seconds of animation to make that is equal to death on the higher difficulty levels and the shield bashing is spammable, allow you to quickly change positions to avoid being surrounded and did a decent enough damage to kill enemies fast making it the only true choice.

Even if DK 2 combat can't be considerated the most brilliant ARPG combat ever, DS 3 combat system can't be used as an example of good skill or combat system.
 

Crooked Bee

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DS3 was mediocre. Not too bad, and not as bad as some people make it out to be, and I did enjoy my playthrough (played the gun-wielding girl, whatever her name was). The DLC was pretty dope too.

The skills were extremely boring though, both for the character I played and for all of her companions, and the enemies were also boring for the most part. Obsidian cannot into systems and encounter design. :M
 

Roguey

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While I appretiate Obsidian's initiative to make the combat a little more fluid and dangerous than most Diablo clones . DS 3 was still a case of the developers trying to make a Diablo clone for the consoles and failing to understand how a Diablo clone Works.
Stop right there criminal scum. DS3 isn't intended to be a Diablo clone.
Nathaniel Chapman said:
Honestly, DSIII isn't really a Diablo clone, even if you felt the first two were. If you think about why Square would want to develop the game with Obsidian, it should be pretty clear that story is more of a focus in this iteration than in previous ones.

I do think we're in a pretty unique space for games right now, but when I have to name games that are closest to ours I think there are other ARPGs that I think DSIII has a lot more in common with than Diablo.

Nathaniel Chapman said:
The combat plays kind of like a mix of a beat-em-up and classic console ARPG (like Secret of Mana or Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance), but there are still RPG elements that are reminiscent of Diablo, the original Dungeon Siege games, but with a bit more complexity and reactivity to what the players do in the game.

It's kind of hard to describe exactly. It's like if you took Mass Effect, Diablo, Dungeon Siege, Secret of Mana, and God of War, and put them in a blender with Obsidian dialog and story.

Josh Sawyer said:
The combat mechanics underlying DS3 are significantly more intricate than the X-Men Legends/BGDA games. DS3's combat borrows elements from dedicated action games more than ARPGs.

See these are things you would know if you bothered to discern a path of intent. A thing game connoisseurs like Josh and me do.

The combat was more fluid than other Diablo clones but at the higher difficulty levels, it broke entirely as some bosses could easily one shot you and the only real deffense you had was to roll alot (unless you played with the gypsy girl that could murder everything at long range anyway), turning the fights into let's roll in circles while the life regenerate what was terrible.
"I hate it because it plays like an action game" is what you're saying. Well too bad, that's what it is.

Gonna ignore your general mostly-wrong critique full of inaccuracies.

I played mainly the warrior guy, he has 3 offensive skills, one where he does a big swipe with his two handed sword, one where he charge and shield bash enemies and another one where he does an aoe attack. The two handed attack does more damage but has a very limited range that makes it only useful at the beginning of the game where the enemies don't hit that hard, the aoe attack is powerful but require 2 seconds of animation to make that is equal to death on the higher difficulty levels and the shield bashing is spammable, allow you to quickly change positions to avoid being surrounded and did a decent enough damage to kill enemies fast making it the only true choice.
He has six offensive abilities and they were all useful, especially when empowered/upgraded. And they all had two upgrade paths which is far more interesting than "put more points into this ability to do more damage with it" like in awful treadmill Diablo-style games.

Even if DK 2 combat can't be considerated the most brilliant ARPG combat ever, DS 3 combat system can't be used as an example of good skill or combat system.
It totally can because it is.
 

DeepOcean

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Because it is.
Roguey, since I started lurking in this forum, you a few times made interesting points and many times I wanted to discuss something with you but I knew that if I tried I would be bombarded with "It is because I said it is or Josh said so" so no thanks, I won't disscuss anything with you. You really annoy me because I know that somewhere on your posts there is interesting thinking, that is the whole reason I didn't ignored you yet and sometimes I'm tempted in discussing something with you but I know it is pointless, so I won't even start. When there is a version of Roguey without the whole creepy/stalking internet persona you can warn me about it.
 
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Well, Josh is brown nosing the shit Obsidian peddled as DS3. Anthony Davis also admitted he likes DS3, not because of its merit as a final product, but because how they managed to turn out something barely playable which outsold the investment... under lot of crunch time (plenty of George Ziets writing was excluded, among other things)

i thought it was obvious. It plays like a shitty diablo clone, and only way to play it is the gypsy girl with the guns. Even then it roll roll roll, quite twitchy. Its mechanics were extremely shitty, neither achieving the sense fo accomplishment and adrenaline like say Dark Souls, nor was it very satisfying cerebrally (one/2 skills spam..roll to buy time, repeat this shit). Also, Obsidian's main strength writing wasn't really out there. Obsidian is p. much shit at everything else, whether due to its own ineptitude or due to publisher pressure to release games without enough QA.

Gothic 2 is Euro Shovelware? :lol: It got the action combat right. and exploration was simply superb. cannot say that for G3 though...I am not much motivated to complete it.

Divinity 2 had shit combat, but not as shitty as DS3. Cause there was not like lol only 1 skill is viable...spam it while saving your butt rolling.
It was significant synergy for most effective strategies, which meant that there was actually more than 1 mind numbingly boring strategy to rinse and repeat.
Broken Valley and Aleroth (expansion) were p. well populated and solid quest writing and resolution. These two things shame Obsidian's writing n DS3 (no DLC's though... I am not paying after the horror that was the main game)

In isolation, every single aspect of Div2 DKS/Gothic 2 beat DS3 including writing. And as a whole, they beat blow DS3 outta the window how much the game as a finished product is worth.

Alpha Protocol, despite its shitty shooter, was the most reactive popamole I have played. The CnC alone made rest of the game worth it.

Now Obsidian Employees like Anthony Davis and Josh Sawyer will say, no it could have been way better, but Publisher scrapped storyfag writing (and some internal clash George Ziets had with some other writer who wasn't into that whole personal plot thingy but preferred epic plots) and combat was more fluid. But the end product wasn't. it was at best mediocre, and at worst a survival shovel-ware comparable to Beyond Divinity.

Also, i suspect, someone with clout in Obsidian was responsible for the overall (revised form George Ziets storyfaginess) vision, and hence no present employee is actually criticizing it for what it is... Kwa Shovelware.

I would take shitty NWN2 combat with obsidian's personal writing over the roll away from popamole diablo-wannabe piece of shit without many high points plot wise that was DS3.


And Bros, its best to give a single reply to Roguey making all your points (just so that newfags like me have some perspective...) rather than ignoring completely... but not to reply with any effort to his "Josh said so" follows, but make use of memes and smiley as follow-ups to his shit.
 

glorious jim

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Oct 28, 2013
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didn't they have towns and non-combat areas you could just walk around in earlier in development

switching to one-screen quest hubs is kind of crap

still, looking forward to this even if it looks to be pretty railroaded in terms of story, the combat should be very satisfying

the engine is the same as expeditions: conquistador, and chaos chronicles from what I can tell. is there a list of all games made with that engine somewhere?
 

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