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Vapourware Daggerfall Unity isnt Vaporware

Miles Davis or John Coltrane?

  • Miles Davis

    Votes: 49 29.7%
  • John Coltrane

    Votes: 48 29.1%
  • Kenny G (kc response)

    Votes: 68 41.2%

  • Total voters
    165

SharkClub

Prophet
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Strap Yourselves In
Removing level scaling from Daggerfall is definitely noticeable, in-fact it makes the game much much much harder. It's not like Oblivion where level scaling just bloats health pools and damage and gives every bandit end game armor and weapons. You're going to encounter enemies that you will be unable to hit at all (as in, literally unhittable because the material doesn't damage them) with the type of weapons you're using frequently if you have unleveled enemies, unless you also have a mod to totally unlevel the loot and find mithril weapons and such at level 1. Any enemy that is able to cast a spell or get a single melee hit in is going to delete you on sight when you're low level and haven't raised your hit points much, especially when you're undergeared for them and don't have protective spells yourself. It's not the best design in the world, generally I don't like level scaling in games at all, but it is integral to Daggerfall's balance because of how deeply embedded it is.

You don't even need a mod that removes level scaling to notice how busted it can be without it, there are quest mods that give you quests from level 1 that will reward you with an artifact like the Skeleton Key or Necromancer's Amulet, but you have to kill an Ancient Lich or Ancient Vampire to get it, and you have to do it within 30 days of getting the quest or something. So you have 30 days to level up to a point where you can beat these things, easier said than done. I've done these quests multiple times on new characters and they are always a massive pain in the ass. You will get one shot by anything that hits you unless you maxed hp/endurance/willpower in character creation, enlisting other enemies in the dungeon to help you with Language Skills Overhaul can work as a distraction but they also die in one hit, getting the Ebony Dagger in character creation is the only way to hit them in melee, usually it requires at least some savescumming which is sad to say. Those artifact quests the game springs on you in that quest mod are extremely unbalanced at a low level.

Besides, Daggerfall Enemy Expansion is far better than any other mod that it conflicts with. It's better than Bossfall, it's better than anything that unlevels the base enemy roster, it's better than the combat overhaul (you probably can use it together with DEE but afaik the new enemies are not balanced at all for it so it makes them all extremely easy).
 
Last edited:

unseeingeye

Cleric/Mage
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Strap Yourselves In
Sorry to burst your bubble a bit. I did not create new exteriors with Fixed Dungeon Exteriors. Instead, I made sure all dungeons had one of the vanilla exteriors fitting their names so that castles would always have castle exteriors, mausoleums would have graveyards, etc. The castles and towers with multiple doors always lead to the same entry point inside the dungeon. That is some Daggerfall logic right here. Enter what seems to be a 8x8 tower and be welcomed in a 24x24, three-stories high hall. ;)
It is possible with the current dungeon editor to make an interior that fits the exterior, but considering the number of possible variants that's a lot of work.

Thanks for the feedback about this and Finding My Religion! Much appreciated. There's more being worked on at the moment.

It's indeed a good idea to make a copy of each DFU update when you plan to upgrade. I believe that when 1.0 will be released, mods will no longer break from updates so that won't be necessary.
Wow, you know it has been a while since I last played vanilla Daggerfall so I must have forgotten that these exteriors have actually always been there.. I guess that they just weren't always accurately reflecting what the names implied, which your mod then corrects? I have a terrible memory and confuse things like this sometimes; here I thought your mod was adding all of those things to the game! But even if it is not that profound, the mod is nevertheless a necessary one for what it does do and I am sincerely grateful for it. I feel a bit embarrassed to have been under such a wrong impression about something so elementary. Upon reflecting I do remember now going to castles and such like in the vanilla game and they did have exteriors that weren't just the little dungeon mounds, like when the main quest sends you to Shedungent in the Wrothgarian Mountains to meet with Nulfaga or when you are sent to Scourg Barrow in Dragontail Mountains to meet with the King of Worms (who your username always calls to mind). Man, do I feel dumb!

But, I'm very excited to learn that your still working on more mods! One of these days I really ought to learn how to make mods myself because I'd so love to contribute, I've been modding games for practically two decades off and on but always as an outside fan and I very rarely get to interact with mod authors because I don't really use any kind of social media like Discord, the codex is the only place left where I engage with people online. I've used the Construction Set to fix a few things when modding Morrowind, and I have a fairly comprehensive grasp on the many different kinds of tools for it and for the later games, but I never took the next step. Daggerfall Unity seems to be more advanced though, and I worry that it is probably beyond me. But I am so thankful to those of you who do make mods for it, you guys have breathed new life into a game that was already fantastic, turning it into something so much more involved and immersive. It is a labor of love that I admire greatly and am incapable of sufficiently conveying my gratitude.
 

unseeingeye

Cleric/Mage
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Messages
614
Strap Yourselves In
Well from what you said I'd prefer Enemy Expansion for sure... It's just that I was interested in adding the "unleveled" element. But perhaps it isn't as noticeable in Daggerfall...
I think I'll also add SIGIL and Warm Ashes after all.
Do you happen to know Unleveled Loot, Unleveled Spells and Better Archery?
I certainly concur with the points made by SharkClub and whole heartedly recommend Enemy Expansion, I don't know have any experience with unlevelled mods so I couldn't comment on the experience the way they did, but I agree that Daggerfall is significantly difficult as it is and without meta knowledge will result in many, many deaths and dead end progressions.

The thing about the Ebony Dagger is absolutely true and I think I mentioned it earlier too; always take that option when presented with it during character creation because there are a minimum of one though most people will encounter at least two magical imps that need to be defeated in the opening dungeon unless you plan on just running straight to the exit without stopping. The first one comes very early on, just beyond the second flight of stairs after you turn to leave the little chamber where your first encounter (a rat) is, immediately to the left behind a closed door. There is a bat patrolling this corner that will usually come at you while you are still ascending the steps and sometimes you can just walk right past that door without opening it and encountering the imp, but sometimes it will open the door itself and come after you!

Then there is another one right at the very end, in the final room where the exit door is, fighting two bats or maybe a rat; again you can just dash past it making straight for the exit door and if you have the options on for enemies to engage each other in combat then usually the imp will be preoccupied focusing on fighting a bat and not take notice of you, but if you intend to fight your way out and collect gold and equipment to gear up then you will need a reliable method of damaging the imps and the only options available are if you take that Ebony dagger, are a spellcaster and use a Destruction magic (which I think requires having it as a major skill to start with such a spell, but I could be mistaken about that), or get unusually lucky with a weapon drop of Steel quality or greater.

About SIGIL and Warm Ashes, they are both seriously great mods, but yea like I was saying just make sure you say "no" when the very first Warm Ashes activation prompt comes up for the wilderness. They are compatible as far as I'm aware, and there shouldn't be any conflict if you were to activate both, I just think you would then be bombarded with an obscene amount of very difficult random encounters lol. When I was using Warm Ashes alone as the only mod that added enemy encounters to the wilderness I was finding it just a bit too frequent for me and I kept being assaulted by very difficult enemies like vampires, or like multiple bears simultaneously, at level 1 just out of the opening dungeon! According to the most recent update for Warm Ashes though, the mod author said "Reduce wilderness encounters to one encounter per wilderness visit" so it must be significantly toned down, but I prefer still just to keep all of the other options activated and leave the wilderness encounters to SIGIL. The thing about SIGIL is that it has a variety of encounter types and not all of them are hostile enemies, like you can encounter traveling merchants or NPCs who can train your skills, you can encounter like actual battles going down between two different groups, and all of it is context aware so it takes into account the weather and time of day. The most recent version requires Enemy Expansion, but I think that is excellent because it now also incorporates the new enemy types into its encounter system.

So yea my personal recommendation would be similar to the one above, to use Enemy Expansion and not use the unlevelled enemies or combat overhaul, but that's just my preferences and I don't want to try to dissuade you from pursuing a gameplay style that you find more interesting. I just think the vanilla combat mechanics with the fixes that Daggerfall Unity already comes with is best left as it is because altering it will upset the balance and it is already a very challenging game. Unfortunately though I have not tried the three mods you are interested in, Unleveled Loot, Unleveled Spells and Better Archery. I don't think I have even seen Better Archery actually, is it a newer mod perhaps? I do use the archery-related options in the Enhancement tab on the Launcher, such as "Bows - Draw and Release" and "Equip Bows in Left Hand Only", and with Diverse Weapons the archery experience becomes perfect for me. As for Unleveled Spells, I've never used it, but I do use (and I think I included it in my recommended mod list) Kab's Unleveled Spells which has been updated much more recently and to me seems to be much more efficient and well conceived: https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/220

As far as Unleveled Loot the reason I don't use such a mod is really just because of the degree to which I still maintain a relative adherence to the vanilla mechanics. One of the best parts of the game for me is the thrill of finding an end-game material weapon type after going through all the different tiered materials as you level up and progress through the game. I feel it would rob the player of that satisfactory sense of accomplishment and reward to just have access to Ebony, Daedric, Adamantium, Orcish &c weapons and armor potentially even right away. But if you don't suspect you will be spending too much time with the game I suppose it could be used if you want to experience high powered stuff sooner than later.

Also I took some screenshots last night that I wanted to share how my game looks with my mods. I barely played more than a few minutes and most of the time was spent on building the character (a custom class High Elf focused on magic and archery, usually I play as a Nord though) and these screenshots are at the approach to Gothway Garden, the closest town due south to the point you begin the game immediately after exiting the opening dungeon. I have the draw distance in the launcher set to 3 and turned off the "enable improved terrain" option in Distant Terrain in order to let Mountains and Hills work with the games heightmaps that Daggerfall Unity implements. My hand and weapons when drawn are unfortunately partially obscured by the compass, but this can be changed by altering the display settings and not using retro rendering mode. I spent most of my time last night trying to get Battlespire to work properly; I just could not figure out how to get it to run well with the "high resolution" option turned on in-game. At low resolution it would run flawlessly but at high I was getting like 5 FPS lol; eventually I resolved the issue and got it working decently enough, but I then was too tired to play Daggerfall for long, so after updating my mods (I added the Detailed City Walls mod and the HUD Torch mod while deleting the three potentially harmful mods discussed here yesterday) I created my new character, got through the dungeon, and made it to an inn in Gothway Garden before going to bed.

I took these few screenshots to just give a general impression what my game looks like; you can see the crosshair mod, the hotkey mod, the distant terrain and heightmap variety with Mountains and Hills, the Wilderness Overhaul adding a million trees while keeping the areas immediately surrounding towns clear (you can actually adjust how far from towns you want the clearing space to be, and you can select from hundreds of seeds to generate the wilderness variety, its so cool). Also visible are the NPCs such as the Dunmer woman, the guy on a horse, and a guard on a horse in the background, the sprites of the NPCs in the dialogue mode (I maintain vanilla for this, and I don't use the launchers font either, it clashes too much for me with the rest of the graphics), the different weapon types in Diverse Weapons (one is the Iron Saber and the other is the Ebony Dagger), and of course a whole bunch of others that are either more subtle or just not visible on the screen. I can take better screenshots later if anyone is interested, to show more of the terrain (like how the implemented heightmaps makes it so that going south to Gothway Garden has you ascending a massive incline, which is immediately behind my characters point of view in those screenshots) and the wilderness, the roads and occupied exterior dungeons, and so on.

And, you know I just had to include a Battlespire screenshot, because my character got the most pimped out cloak at the start and she's jamming on some serious shit, clapping daedra in style.

EDIT - You can also see what I was talking about with the skybox; I no longer use any skybox mods because even if it can look ridiculous like the giant trees background, I love the vanilla landscape backdrops too much to replace them with a modern style sky. So to some people it might look ridiculous, but to me it is perfect.

Daggerfall04.jpg
Daggerfall03.jpg
Daggerfall02.jpg
Daggerfall 01.jpg
Daggerfall06.jpg

Battlespire01.jpg
 

mastroego

Arcane
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
10,406
Location
Italy

About SIGIL and Warm Ashes, they are both seriously great mods, but yea like I was saying just make sure you say "no" when the very first Warm Ashes activation prompt comes up for the wilderness. They are compatible as far as I'm aware, and there shouldn't be any conflict if you were to activate both, I just think you would then be bombarded with an obscene amount of very difficult random encounters lol. When I was using Warm Ashes alone as the only mod that added enemy encounters to the wilderness I was finding it just a bit too frequent for me and I kept being assaulted by very difficult enemies like vampires, or like multiple bears simultaneously, at level 1 just out of the opening dungeon! According to the most recent update for Warm Ashes though, the mod author said "Reduce wilderness encounters to one encounter per wilderness visit" so it must be significantly toned down, but I prefer still just to keep all of the other options activated and leave the wilderness encounters to SIGIL. The thing about SIGIL is that it has a variety of encounter types and not all of them are hostile enemies, like you can encounter traveling merchants or NPCs who can train your skills, you can encounter like actual battles going down between two different groups, and all of it is context aware so it takes into account the weather and time of day. The most recent version requires Enemy Expansion, but I think that is excellent because it now also incorporates the new enemy types into its encounter system.

So yea my personal recommendation would be similar to the one above, to use Enemy Expansion and not use the unlevelled enemies or combat overhaul, but that's just my preferences and I don't want to try to dissuade you from pursuing a gameplay style that you find more interesting. I just think the vanilla combat mechanics with the fixes that Daggerfall Unity already comes with is best left as it is because altering it will upset the balance and it is already a very challenging game. Unfortunately though I have not tried the three mods you are interested in, Unleveled Loot, Unleveled Spells and Better Archery.

Damn damn damn. You make seriously valid points. I might have to go with the unleveled run.
I just hate that you grow as a character but just keep finding stronger enemies no matter where you go. It sorta makes the thing pointless.
In Skyrim Requiem, for instance, as you grow stronger mundane threats become trivial, you sense your progress, but can decide to embark in more dangerous adventures.

This is the ideal system, imho, but perhaps there are ways in Daggerfall as well to appreciate the progress you made, despite everything being leveled?
Even just something minor?


I don't think I have even seen Better Archery actually, is it a newer mod perhaps?
Not an official release, but apparently is good, look here


Also I took some screenshots last night that I wanted to share how my game looks with my mods. I barely played more than a few minutes and most of the time was spent on building the character (a custom class High Elf focused on magic and archery, usually I play as a Nord though) and these screenshots are at the approach to Gothway Garden, the closest town due south to the point you begin the game immediately after exiting the opening dungeon. I have the draw distance in the launcher set to 3 and turned off the "enable improved terrain" option in Distant Terrain in order to let Mountains and Hills work with the games heightmaps that Daggerfall Unity implements. My hand and weapons when drawn are unfortunately partially obscured by the compass, but this can be changed by altering the display settings and not using retro rendering mode. I spent most of my time last night trying to get Battlespire to work properly; I just could not figure out how to get it to run well with the "high resolution" option turned on in-game. At low resolution it would run flawlessly but at high I was getting like 5 FPS lol; eventually I resolved the issue and got it working decently enough, but I then was too tired to play Daggerfall for long, so after updating my mods (I added the Detailed City Walls mod and the HUD Torch mod while deleting the three potentially harmful mods discussed here yesterday) I created my new character, got through the dungeon, and made it to an inn in Gothway Garden before going to bed.
hmm, might have to add Wilderness Overhaul too. I could have sworn I had something that added tress and plants already....
 

unseeingeye

Cleric/Mage
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Messages
614
Strap Yourselves In

mastroego, I don't have time to respond properly right now and will when I can, but quickly came here to let you know to just completely forgo using Distant Terrain.​

It dramatically impacts performance and I'm discovering issues like landscape seams (they are very subtle at first, but I started noticing them), plus the low-poly terrain in the distance at certain elevations looks awful and doesn't transition into the skybox adequately even when activating a skybox mod like Dynamic Skies or Enhanced Skies (both of which I refuse to use). With the vanilla skybox it is even more egregious. I am finding that simply using Mountains and Hills with the launchers inbuilt distance slider set to 4 (the maximum) you can see very far and although not as far as Distant Terrain, the impact on performance is just not worth it. Ultimately its your call, I'm just letting you know that I messed around with a separate mod load order today and tried loading at the same vantage points with and without Distant Terrain and Mountain and Hills active, and I am settling now for completely dropping Distant Terrain and sticking with Mountains and Hills (which works beautifully with the Basic Roads and Travel Options mods, World of Daggerfall, &c). I've also noticed that a Daggerfall player I learned much from back in the day Zaric has also apparently dropped Distant Terrain as well, whereas he always seemed to have it active in prior videos, but now in his latest ones he is only using one terrain mod. I feel I gave bad advice by suggesting using both; yes, it is compatible with other terrain mods if you deselect the "improved terrain" option, but I'm encountering deeper issues that I hadn't noticed before and must suggest only using one or the other; since you plan to use a skybox mod you could still use Distant Terrain, but if you don't mind a slight decrease in draw distance in favor of a massive boost in performance I recommend only using Mountains and Hills. Ok I've got to run, I'll get back to you as soon as I can to respond to your actual post. Take care!
 

SQUIDKamer

Literate
Joined
Jan 5, 2023
Messages
8

Well from what you said I'd prefer Enemy Expansion for sure... It's just that I was interested in adding the "unleveled" element. But perhaps it isn't as noticeable in Daggerfall...
If no one makes a version for Daggerfall Enemy Expansion I'll have to do it myself.
 

unseeingeye

Cleric/Mage
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Messages
614
Strap Yourselves In
If no one makes a version for Daggerfall Enemy Expansion I'll have to do it myself.
The OG making an appearance? Another mod master in the house? I very much want to try out Low Poly Trees, but I had read that it isn't compatible with Wilderness Overhaul at the moment so I've been holding off, though I think you mentioned this is being worked on? I will probably always stick with the 2D trees because I don't like to change very much of the graphics, but I would like to have it to use on occasion because judging by the photos the trees are about as perfect and fitting as could be. I also just recently added Lysandus Lives and Lootable Villagers, neither of which I'd tried before and I look forward to them both. I'm going to make an assassin type character to join the Dark Brotherhood so the latter mod seems like a great enhancement.
 

unseeingeye

Cleric/Mage
Patron
Joined
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Messages
614
Strap Yourselves In
Damn damn damn. You make seriously valid points. I might have to go with the unleveled run.
I just hate that you grow as a character but just keep finding stronger enemies no matter where you go. It sorta makes the thing pointless.
In Skyrim Requiem, for instance, as you grow stronger mundane threats become trivial, you sense your progress, but can decide to embark in more dangerous adventures.

This is the ideal system, imho, but perhaps there are ways in Daggerfall as well to appreciate the progress you made, despite everything being leveled?
Even just something minor?

hmm, might have to add Wilderness Overhaul too. I could have sworn I had something that added tress and plants already....
Hello! So I looked over your mod list again after you've updated it; unless I'm just missing something (very possible..) I don't think I noticed any mods that add trees and plants, other than the Real Grass mod. The Wilderness Overhaul mod is very, very cool and has tons of options in the mod configuration menu for adjusting things, including a random seed slider that has hundreds of seeds to mess around with, and you can determine the amount of clearing and distance for each location type so for instance a town or city would have a significant amount of cleared forest beyond the walls or edges of the town, while a village will have less and locations like dungeons have negative modifiers to emphasize the simulation of nobody tending to the properties. There are all kinds of things you can mess with in that mods settings and I definitely recommend it. At the moment the very cool mod Low Poly Trees isn't compatible with it because it doesn't support asset replacements but like I mentioned above I'm pretty sure that I read on the Nexus page that the mod author is working on making that a possibility.

About the leveling system in Daggerfall, it has been a while since I've actually stuck with a character to experience the higher levels (I'm in the process of doing so now, after finalizing my mod setup) but if I am remembering it correctly, the enemies don't have level scaling the way that, for instance, Oblivion does. I think it functions a bit similarly to Morrowind, where enemies are always the same level no matter what level you are, but that stronger enemy types begin to spawn more frequently as your levle increases. So you do absolutely experience a sense of progress, though this mostly has to do with your skills; so lets say you have Long Blade as a major skill, then each time you increase the skill level of it and the associated attributes that determine hit-chance (Agility, I think) you will find yourself connecting attacks with increasing frequency. The kind of loot you find is also determined by level, so that at higher levels your chances of encountering stronger material variants of weapon types greatly increases, and these too effect hit-chance as well as damage amount.

You can (at least I'm pretty sure you can) always encounter very powerful enemies and this is part of what makes vanilla Daggerfall so difficult, but at early levels they are supposed to be very rare, but when you are like level 20 or so you will start to encounter Liches and stuff. So like take Orcs for example, at level 1 you see a basic Orc who is level 5, but then as your level goes up you will start to encounter Orc Sergeants that are level 7, then Orc Shamans that are level 13, and finally Orc Warlords that are level 16. No matter what level you are makes no difference what level they are; an Orc will always be level 5 and an Orc Shaman will always be level 13, but what changes is their chance to spawn. Does this make sense, I hope? So this is why I don't use any mods that de-level things (other than the Kab's Unlevelled Spells, it is the only exception I make but thats because playing a pure mage in Daggerfall is very difficult, nearly impossible at the start, and that mod helps tremendously). I like the mix of static NPCs and enemy type variants changing as I level, similar to how it is in Morrowind where the majority of the game is static and you know some places are extremely dangerous to visit early on, but you can come back at a higher level and just demolish the place like its nothing, but you will still encounter challenges in dungeons and the like from stronger enemy types that spawn.
 

SQUIDKamer

Literate
Joined
Jan 5, 2023
Messages
8
The OG making an appearance?
I've been lurking for about 3-4 years now to be honest. After I seen cliffworms I figured I might as well join in.

I had read that it isn't compatible with Wilderness Overhaul at the moment

Low Poly Trees is compatible with the latest update of Wilderness Overhaul now. Been supported since December 16th. Works/looks great. Slowly working on an alternate to handpainted models in my spare time to update 2d billboards with 3d models of the time.
I'm going to make an assassin type character to join the Dark Brotherhood so the latter mod seems like a great enhancement.

Enjoy the assassin play through. I was roleplaying a burglar myself until I realized once you are banished you no longer pay fines or serve time and was completely exploitable. I kinda refuse to play now cause of the exploit. Currently creating a court/prison overhaul of sorts. I want the game to be a cruel as possible as that's always kinda been how I enjoy games. I've added a sentence to the gulag/mines, a sentencing to be tortured, a sentencing to be executed, the ability to die/starve to death while serving your sentence, and extended punishments for crimes. So far the basics are implemented. Murder gets you 25-60 years in jail while Treason/High Treason will be an automatic execution. Like with Warm Ashes, random events occur in prison that offer chances to escape or to gather food to survive.
 

unseeingeye

Cleric/Mage
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Strap Yourselves In

Enjoy the assassin play through. I was roleplaying a burglar myself until I realized once you are banished you no longer pay fines or serve time and was completely exploitable. I kinda refuse to play now cause of the exploit. Currently creating a court/prison overhaul of sorts. I want the game to be a cruel as possible as that's always kinda been how I enjoy games. I've added a sentence to the gulag/mines, a sentencing to be tortured, a sentencing to be executed, the ability to die/starve to death while serving your sentence, and extended punishments for crimes. So far the basics are implemented. Murder gets you 25-60 years in jail while Treason/High Treason will be an automatic execution. Like with Warm Ashes, random events occur in prison that offer chances to escape or to gather food to survive.
You know, I never even considered such a mod before, but hearing your description of now I'm dying to try it! I will absolutely be looking for it should you finish and decide to make it publicly available. The court system is one of the most interesting parts of the game but it is definitely very minimal. The idea that you could actually be sentenced to serve time and experience it as your character (something I've unfortunately experienced in real life) with the possibility to escape would completely change the game in a very profound way. This is very exciting to hear about!
 

SQUIDKamer

Literate
Joined
Jan 5, 2023
Messages
8
I wouldn't get too excited. Its just a text based experience. You get flavor text per month describing things and events have a chance of happening yearly. Since you can fast forward, they can come quickly. It's not supposed to be fun, its supposed to punish you. Some would describe it as boring. Though thinking about it most people here know my intentions as you probably do. This creates a great role-playing experience that Daggerfall is known for. Its not exactly about being fun but telling a story. Something to add to your characters history. By the time your sentence ends, your character will have lost skills and have spent so much time in the pin it'll feel like forever since you've seen the world. I've spent so much time in jail one time both plots of Morrowind and Oblivion took place.
 

mastroego

Arcane
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
10,406
Location
Italy
Hello! So I looked over your mod list again after you've updated it; unless I'm just missing something (very possible..) I don't think I noticed any mods that add trees and plants, other than the Real Grass mod. The Wilderness Overhaul mod is very, very cool and has tons of options in the mod configuration menu for adjusting things, including a random seed slider that has hundreds of seeds to mess around with, and you can determine the amount of clearing and distance for each location type so for instance a town or city would have a significant amount of cleared forest beyond the walls or edges of the town, while a village will have less and locations like dungeons have negative modifiers to emphasize the simulation of nobody tending to the properties. There are all kinds of things you can mess with in that mods settings and I definitely recommend it. At the moment the very cool mod Low Poly Trees isn't compatible with it because it doesn't support asset replacements but like I mentioned above I'm pretty sure that I read on the Nexus page that the mod author is working on making that a possibility.

About the leveling system in Daggerfall, it has been a while since I've actually stuck with a character to experience the higher levels (I'm in the process of doing so now, after finalizing my mod setup) but if I am remembering it correctly, the enemies don't have level scaling the way that, for instance, Oblivion does. I think it functions a bit similarly to Morrowind, where enemies are always the same level no matter what level you are, but that stronger enemy types begin to spawn more frequently as your levle increases. So you do absolutely experience a sense of progress, though this mostly has to do with your skills; so lets say you have Long Blade as a major skill, then each time you increase the skill level of it and the associated attributes that determine hit-chance (Agility, I think) you will find yourself connecting attacks with increasing frequency. The kind of loot you find is also determined by level, so that at higher levels your chances of encountering stronger material variants of weapon types greatly increases, and these too effect hit-chance as well as damage amount.

You can (at least I'm pretty sure you can) always encounter very powerful enemies and this is part of what makes vanilla Daggerfall so difficult, but at early levels they are supposed to be very rare, but when you are like level 20 or so you will start to encounter Liches and stuff. So like take Orcs for example, at level 1 you see a basic Orc who is level 5, but then as your level goes up you will start to encounter Orc Sergeants that are level 7, then Orc Shamans that are level 13, and finally Orc Warlords that are level 16. No matter what level you are makes no difference what level they are; an Orc will always be level 5 and an Orc Shaman will always be level 13, but what changes is their chance to spawn. Does this make sense, I hope? So this is why I don't use any mods that de-level things (other than the Kab's Unlevelled Spells, it is the only exception I make but thats because playing a pure mage in Daggerfall is very difficult, nearly impossible at the start, and that mod helps tremendously). I like the mix of static NPCs and enemy type variants changing as I level, similar to how it is in Morrowind where the majority of the game is static and you know some places are extremely dangerous to visit early on, but you can come back at a higher level and just demolish the place like its nothing, but you will still encounter challenges in dungeons and the like from stronger enemy types that spawn.

Thanks for all your in-depth replies!
I still think a proper de-leveling would be best but in this case there would be a lot to sacrifice.
Not to mention that Requiem for Skyrim is a big mod that required its fair share of balancing before getting to what it is now...
And lastly, I'm sure Daggerfall it's no Oblivion to begin with.

I suppose I'll try with the normal leveling system, except for the Loot, probably: a small chance to get a few better items earlier is not so unreasonable, and stores will charge premium money for them.
Besides, you advocate for the starting Ebony Dagger, which honestly everyone says it's necessary.... this betrays bad game design imho.
There are also mods for starting elsewhere, BTW.

So I'm going to add:
-Wilderness Overhaul
-Daggerfall Enemy Expansion
-Warm Ashes
-SIGIL


Already removed Distant Terrain, as per you earlier suggestion. :obviously:
Something about the Main and other quests? There's a mod to slow it down, and another to re-arrange guild quests priorities, so that you get simpler assignments first.
Any experience with those? :)
 
Last edited:

unseeingeye

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I wouldn't get too excited. Its just a text based experience. You get flavor text per month describing things and events have a chance of happening yearly. Since you can fast forward, they can come quickly. It's not supposed to be fun, its supposed to punish you. Some would describe it as boring. Though thinking about it most people here know my intentions as you probably do. This creates a great role-playing experience that Daggerfall is known for. Its not exactly about being fun but telling a story. Something to add to your characters history. By the time your sentence ends, your character will have lost skills and have spent so much time in the pin it'll feel like forever since you've seen the world. I've spent so much time in jail one time both plots of Morrowind and Oblivion took place.
I see; well I still think it is exciting. To me the implementation of and availability to incur that sort of negative consequences is fun, even among the most enjoyable aspects of this kind of video game. Sure most people would find it boring but most people seem to find reading itself, regardless of the context and purpose, to be boring so that is to be expected. There are plenty of people who would enjoy just such a mod though, and I get the impression that many people who frequent these forums are among them. I haven't ever experienced a video game that even remotely attempts to relay any of the psychosocial consequences and the overall traumatic effect prison has on people, but then relatively few people have ever spent time in one and so can't relate to or even begin to comprehend what it does to a person. I've been out for 16 years and I still find myself feeling overwhelmed by the simplest things that are generally taken for granted. I was actually a vegetarian when I was sentenced, that held up real well lol. I don't know that I'll ever get over the sensation of being able to wake up on your own terms as opposed to being stunned awake every single morning by hundreds of painfully brilliant lights and the accompanying hum suddenly powering on in every cell at the crack of dawn. Or being able to use a private bathroom.

Anyway there are just so many ways that prison or even time in a local jail change a person, and in the video games I've played at least this is never conveyed in any meaningful capacity. If you actually get to be in the prison as your character, it is pretty much always just a brief cutscene and upon release nothing whatsoever has changed, not your appearance, not your inventory, not your reputation, &c. A mod that attempts to depict the negative consequences of serving hard time and isn't afraid to impose significant negative modifiers to your skills and attributes would be a very welcome thing. I allowed myself to get the impression that you were implying a more interactive scenario in which you actually get sent to a mine and are forced into labor, which I imagine must be a very difficult and major project, I apologize for making such an assumption. But even as an entirely text-based set of experiences I think would be a very welcome mod that could lead you to really have to hesitate and consider if the crime you're considering committing will be worth the risk.
 

unseeingeye

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Thanks for all your in-depth replies!
I still think a proper de-leveling would be best but in this case there would be a lot to sacrifice.
Not to mention that Requiem for Skyrim is a big mod that required its fair share of balancing before getting to what it is now...
And lastly, I'm sure Daggerfall it's no Oblivion to begin with.

I suppose I'll try with the normal leveling system, except for the Loot, probably: a small chance to get a few better items earlier is not so unreasonable, and stores will charge premium money for them.
Besides, you advocate for the starting Ebony Dagger, which honestly everyone says it's necessary.... this betrays bad game design imho.
There are also mods for starting elsewhere, BTW.

So I'm going to add:
-Wilderness Overhaul
-Daggerfall Enemy Expansion
-Warm Ashes
-SIGIL


Already removed Distant Terrain, as per you earlier suggestion. :obviously:
Something about the Main and other quests? There's a mod to slow it down, and another to re-arrange guild quests priorities, so that you get simpler assignments first.
Any experience with those? :)
Oh you are quite welcome, it is my pleasure! I was getting back into modding Daggerfall Unity but got sidetracked a while back on updating my Morrowind mod setup, but then something pulled me right back in to Daggerfall and I can't even remember what it was now. But I thoroughly enjoy trying out different mods and so while the information is fresh I figured I could try and help other people who may be unfamiliar with mods for this game, and it has led me to learn all sorts of things by interacting here with everyone.

But yea about the leveling system and the Ebony dagger thing; now, it isn't exactly necessary to take the dagger, you could absolutely forgo taking it and be totally fine, it just makes it so that the opening dungeon is much easier to survive for anybody who is not yet knowledgeable about all of the mechanics. I'm pretty sure that the magical imps, which are the sole reason everybody practically universally recommends taking that dagger, can be damaged by any weapon material type from steel and above, it is only iron grade weapons that they are immune to and at first level that is what you generally spawn into the game with in your inventory. However there is always a fairly decent chance that you will find a steel weapon right away in the first chamber you enter after passing through what is supposed to represent a sort of tunnel beyond the collapsed terrain that sealed you in to the cave. It isn't guaranteed and even if one appears in that very first loot pile it may be of a weapon type that you have no proficiency with, and so everybody just recommends to take the ebony dagger so that there is no doubt whatsoever that you can at least damage the imps if you can land a blow.

I won't argue the notion that this instance is bad game design, because it basically is inarguable. To have an enemy type in literally the first location where you start the game that most pre-made classes cannot even manage to harm is a very dumb idea. However I do not believe that it is representative of the combat and leveling systems on the whole, but rather just a fluke and possibly even an oversight. Whatever the case may be I agree it is pretty stupid and its a shame because I feel like that opening dungeon turns off a lot of people who may have never even properly experienced the game for giving up before reaching the exit. Sort of like the Temple of Trials in Fallout 2, although not nearly as absurd.

I think overall your mod list is looking great, even the mods that I'm not familiar with directly sound like fun and some of them I may try myself at some point. About the main quest mods though, I don't have any experience with those. There is another one still where the main quest will progress by itself with another in-game NPC completing the sequence of quest, enabling you to fully immerse yourself in the secondary content by totally opening up your roleplaying immersion in disconnecting you from the role of the hero. Its called Dynamically Progressing Main Quest and it was made by the same guy CliffWorms who was posting before! That one looks very interesting to me and once I've had my fun with completing the main quest I definitely intend to try that one out. But yea I'm unfortunately not familiar with any of the main quest related mods, because for me that falls into the category of straying too far from the intended experience. Not that I don't like the mods, just that I plan to play through the game and finish the main quest, buy a house and a ship, do all that sort of stuff across one big play through, and then afterwards I will open myself up to exploring mods that really alter the game.

EDIT - Sorry I forgot to mention! Late last night I added the mod Iliac Bay Real Estate, which lets you purchase any house in the game, and to own more than a single house in any region! I'm about to leave a comment on the mods Nexus page because the mod author asked for any bugs to be shared and I think I've encountered one but believe it is on my end, so I can't say just yet conclusively if it is recommended or not but from what I got to check out last night I am definitely liking what I saw!

https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/304/
 

FriendlyMerchant

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But yea about the leveling system and the Ebony dagger thing; now, it isn't exactly necessary to take the dagger, you could absolutely forgo taking it and be totally fine, it just makes it so that the opening dungeon is much easier to survive for anybody who is not yet knowledgeable about all of the mechanics. I'm pretty sure that the magical imps, which are the sole reason everybody practically universally recommends taking that dagger
There's also latter dungeons where you might get unlucky with the spawn and run into a bunch of enemies you can't damage with the weapons you've found at that point, so the dagger your only option if you're not using spells.
 

unseeingeye

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Holy shit unseeingeye, every post of yours is an essay (of knowledge). I know which posts to look out for when I get back into DF. :-D
Lol yea I know, I get "TLDR" all the time on my posts here. My whole life revolves around CRPGs and studying (mostly history), outside of my immediate family, reading and writing are my greatest passions and when I'm enthusiastic about something I can either talk or write on whatever it is almost endlessly. I am frequently apologizing in advance for my posts because they tend to be so long and I know most people aren't as interested in lengthy discussions.
 

unseeingeye

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There's also latter dungeons where you might get unlucky with the spawn and run into a bunch of enemies you can't damage with the weapons you've found at that point, so the dagger your only option if you're not using spells.
Yea that is true, and I admit that I've basically taken to invariably including Short Blade if not as a Major skill then definitely as a Minor Skill on almost every character I create. It actually feels like I have one less spot to build a character with because I know I'm going to take that dagger and put just enough skill points into it to be able to hit the imps. In Morrowind I pretty much always take Short Blade but there it has other reasons; I love the appearance of many weapons in the category such as Mehrune's Razor, the Fang of Haynekhtnamet, Keening, the basic Daedric Dagger, hell even the various Wakizashi and Tanto varieties are cool looking, and I'd use the Chitin Dagger forever if it were actually viable. But in Daggerfall it is a purely mechanical decision and one that does kind of cramp your style if you depend on it. I'm definitely not dismissing it as a problem, but I do feel it is a relatively minor one that can be compensated for with a bit of reading up on the game.
 

unseeingeye

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Daggerfall Unity is free on GOG as "Daggerfall Unity GOG Cut" and comes prepackaged with mods

Anyone tried?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW2Mg-l-dy4



I keep asking the same question.

The joy of modding TES II: Daggerfall (Unity, D.R.E.A.M.) seems to be in testing the mod more than playing the game. That's fine.

I think I commented on this a few pages back but just in case I didn't, I wouldn't recommend using the GOG cut. I wouldn't be necessarily opposed to a mod package for this game but there are multiple problems with the GOG package not the least of which is the fact that it is several versions of Daggerfall Unity outdated. But I would say that the fun of modding Daggerfall isn't just in testing the mods, it is in the adjusting and curating of a mod loadout that more specifically tailors the game experience to your preferences. The GOG cut is, at least in theory, someone's vision of an ideal Daggerfall, however to me it appears that whomever compiled that package just grabbed nearly every mod that was then available on the Nexus. The aesthetics clash because there is no consistency in the visual presentation, it contains versions of very popular and well made mods that are themselves several versions outdated and there seems to be no interest in updating it most likely I would assume because of the backlash that occurred due to them not requesting the permission to include several mods from their authors, but it may just as well be negligence. I'm a big fan of GOG and despite some decisions of theirs that I've disliked I remain an ardent supporter of them and still purchase every decent game they add that predates the mid nineties or so despite having multiple versions of all of them through the ExoDOS compilation and my Amiga and Atari ST emulation collections, so I do not advise against it with any malicious intent. If it were any other game that had a significant barrier to entry for modding I would consider it differently, but modding Daggerfall Unity is literally a matter of downloading a file, unzipping it, and dropping it into the appropriate folder (almost always the one called "mods"), and the load order is nowhere near as volatile as that of the latter Elder Scrolls games. It just couldn't be any simpler to mod and as such I urge anybody with more than a passing interest in the game to look at the mod library for themselves, look at the mods photos and only download those that you feel conform to your tastes. The GOG cut is all over the place and really should not be used unless, like I mentioned, you really only plan on trying the game and want it to have super enhanced modern graphics (though again, even the mods responsible for this like DREAM have been updated since).
 

SQUIDKamer

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But yea about the leveling system and the Ebony dagger thing; now, it isn't exactly necessary to take the dagger, you could absolutely forgo taking it and be totally fine, it just makes it so that the opening dungeon is much easier to survive for anybody who is not yet knowledgeable about all of the mechanics. I'm pretty sure that the magical imps, which are the sole reason everybody practically universally recommends taking that dagger
There's also latter dungeons where you might get unlucky with the spawn and run into a bunch of enemies you can't damage with the weapons you've found at that point, so the dagger your only option if you're not using spells.
This is why I always choose hand to hand combat as a skill. No magic needed to punch a ghost or a daedra in the face.
 

mastroego

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I think overall your mod list is looking great, even the mods that I'm not familiar with directly sound like fun and some of them I may try myself at some point. About the main quest mods though, I don't have any experience with those. There is another one still where the main quest will progress by itself with another in-game NPC completing the sequence of quest, enabling you to fully immerse yourself in the secondary content by totally opening up your roleplaying immersion in disconnecting you from the role of the hero. Its called Dynamically Progressing Main Quest and it was made by the same guy CliffWorms who was posting before! That one looks very interesting to me and once I've had my fun with completing the main quest I definitely intend to try that one out. But yea I'm unfortunately not familiar with any of the main quest related mods, because for me that falls into the category of straying too far from the intended experience. Not that I don't like the mods, just that I plan to play through the game and finish the main quest, buy a house and a ship, do all that sort of stuff across one big play through, and then afterwards I will open myself up to exploring mods that really alter the game.

EDIT - Sorry I forgot to mention! Late last night I added the mod Iliac Bay Real Estate, which lets you purchase any house in the game, and to own more than a single house in any region! I'm about to leave a comment on the mods Nexus page because the mod author asked for any bugs to be shared and I think I've encountered one but believe it is on my end, so I can't say just yet conclusively if it is recommended or not but from what I got to check out last night I am definitely liking what I saw!

https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/304/
So my friend, thanks again, I believe I'm close to "finalize" my list.

The Real Estate mod seems truly interesting, I'll keep an eye on it but I'll wait a while.
I'm still not sure about Kab's Unleveled Spells. I don't entirely understand what it even does, or if it would be balanced with the other mods in the list.
I might add Basic Magic Regen since I've added so much stuff that I think makes enemies stronger....
Did I mention I've added your suggested mods but ALSO Physical Combat Overhaul and Meaner Monters loaded after Daggerfall Enemy Expansion?
At least one user reports that it appears to work in the mod's forum.

Limited Gold Shops seemed nice but it also seems a bit bugged (reading through the forum's posts).
The mod Power Struggle, which also I was eyeing, seems un-curated ATM.
So I think I'll skip both.
I may have to decide if I want to try Better Archery myself or not, but I've noticed there's an Archery revision even in the Realism mod, not sure if they would conflict. It's toggable, though...
 

unseeingeye

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This is why I always choose hand to hand combat as a skill. No magic needed to punch a ghost or a daedra in the face.
Yea, I usually do that on Battlespire because of how incredibly overpowered it is, has no carry weight, doesn't degrade condition, etc.
 

unseeingeye

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So my friend, thanks again, I believe I'm close to "finalize" my list.

The Real Estate mod seems truly interesting, I'll keep an eye on it but I'll wait a while.
I'm still not sure about Kab's Unleveled Spells. I don't entirely understand what it even does, or if it would be balanced with the other mods in the list.
I might add Basic Magic Regen since I've added so much stuff that I think makes enemies stronger....
Did I mention I've added your suggested mods but ALSO Physical Combat Overhaul and Meaner Monters loaded after Daggerfall Enemy Expansion?
At least one user reports that it appears to work in the mod's forum.

Limited Gold Shops seemed nice but it also seems a bit bugged (reading through the forum's posts).
The mod Power Struggle, which also I was eyeing, seems un-curated ATM.
So I think I'll skip both.
I may have to decide if I want to try Better Archery myself or not, but I've noticed there's an Archery revision even in the Realism mod, not sure if they would conflict. It's toggable, though...
Nice! Yea your mod list is looking very cool and I anticipate that should you have any problems they ought to be minor. I tend to start a new character when I activate or deactivate any mod unless it is purely cosmetic, but that isn't strictly necessary and it is mostly a habit from modding Morrowind, where you even have access to powerful tools like Wrye Bash.

So about Kab's Unleveled Spells, the simplest explanation of what it does is that it makes spells always do the same amount of damage or heal the same amount, or unlock at the same range, etc similar to how Morrowind or the later games works. In Daggerfall, you don't have success or misses with casting spells like in those games, rather the cost of the spell in spell points and the potency of the spells decrease and increase respectively as you level up. It does a bit more than this but that is the basis of it and I highly recommend it if you are used to the style of the later games. But totally not necessary and I even enjoy the original system too, but with adding so many encounters mods and enemies expanded and so on, I ended up using this and Basic Magicka Regen. Bear in mind that Kab's Unleveled Spells does include an option for regen too, so if you do decide to use both make sure to only use one or the other; I use Basic Magicka Regen because it has much more customization in terms of how you want the regen to work, and you can even access it mid-game without having to back out to the launcher to change the speed of the regen or the style. By the way in case you don't know about that menu since it is somewhat hidden, when you're playing the game and press the escape key or whatever you set the menu access key to, at the very top left of your screen will be like a tiny white drop down symbol that can be hard to see against some backgrounds. You click on that and you can select to edit either the visual settings of the game or mod configuration menu, but only limited mods have directly accessible menus toggleable in real-time. In the visual settings you can change things like Bloom, Depth of Field, all sorts of Post Processing effects, the Retro Rendering Mode and options like Posterization or Palletization, etc. It is very cool!

And yes I likewise was interested in the Power Struggle mod, or any mod really that could show you even in an in-game immersive and subtle manner, the faction alignments that are ever-shifting in the background, and especially our own reputations with each which are likewise also constantly in a state of flux, but I wasn't able to find anything. I think there are console keys maybe to check? I know in vanilla Daggerfall that there was a cheat program you could use called DagRep or something that would load your save and show you what you can already see in a text file but doesn't make much sense unless you already know how to read it. But I suppose that would really break the immersion of it, so I don't mind not having access to it.

EDIT - Oh and a tip to make the game much, MUCH easier (but still difficult at times!), use the Basic Magicka Regen mod, and during character creation take the advantage of Spell Absorption. Then just laugh your way through the game as you absorb spells plus regen Magicka simultaneously, haha. If you use the Classic Exploits mod, you can even make completely overpowered broken characters like you could in vanilla Daggerfall; for instance, take critical weakness to disease, poison and paralysis, then take immunity to magic. In the base game, the immunity to magic makes you immune to those three crippling effects, so it is a free cheat to make you super powerful and also drop the leveling dagger down significantly. Now this was fixed for a reason in Unity version, but the mod is there, should you so desire it... mwahaha
 

BruceVC

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I think overall your mod list is looking great, even the mods that I'm not familiar with directly sound like fun and some of them I may try myself at some point. About the main quest mods though, I don't have any experience with those. There is another one still where the main quest will progress by itself with another in-game NPC completing the sequence of quest, enabling you to fully immerse yourself in the secondary content by totally opening up your roleplaying immersion in disconnecting you from the role of the hero. Its called Dynamically Progressing Main Quest and it was made by the same guy CliffWorms who was posting before! That one looks very interesting to me and once I've had my fun with completing the main quest I definitely intend to try that one out. But yea I'm unfortunately not familiar with any of the main quest related mods, because for me that falls into the category of straying too far from the intended experience. Not that I don't like the mods, just that I plan to play through the game and finish the main quest, buy a house and a ship, do all that sort of stuff across one big play through, and then afterwards I will open myself up to exploring mods that really alter the game.

EDIT - Sorry I forgot to mention! Late last night I added the mod Iliac Bay Real Estate, which lets you purchase any house in the game, and to own more than a single house in any region! I'm about to leave a comment on the mods Nexus page because the mod author asked for any bugs to be shared and I think I've encountered one but believe it is on my end, so I can't say just yet conclusively if it is recommended or not but from what I got to check out last night I am definitely liking what I saw!

https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/304/
So my friend, thanks again, I believe I'm close to "finalize" my list.

The Real Estate mod seems truly interesting, I'll keep an eye on it but I'll wait a while.
I'm still not sure about Kab's Unleveled Spells. I don't entirely understand what it even does, or if it would be balanced with the other mods in the list.
I might add Basic Magic Regen since I've added so much stuff that I think makes enemies stronger....
Did I mention I've added your suggested mods but ALSO Physical Combat Overhaul and Meaner Monters loaded after Daggerfall Enemy Expansion?
At least one user reports that it appears to work in the mod's forum.

Limited Gold Shops seemed nice but it also seems a bit bugged (reading through the forum's posts).
The mod Power Struggle, which also I was eyeing, seems un-curated ATM.
So I think I'll skip both.
I may have to decide if I want to try Better Archery myself or not, but I've noticed there's an Archery revision even in the Realism mod, not sure if they would conflict. It's toggable, though...
unseeingeye

By the way, if you not aware Masie knows lots about Skyrim modding. You guys can continue to have these types of informative and detailed modding discussions on that thread

Keep up the interesting posts :cool:
 

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