Vapourware Daggerfall Unity isnt Vaporware

[SharkClub]

Instead of pointless pretty graphics the dev should focus on improving the algorithm for dungeon generation

To be entirely fair to the dev, he just developed the platform to play Daggerfall in, with the usual expected stuff like supporting higher resolutions and minor changes, he also supported Retro Rendering Mode on top of that for a much more authentic to DOSBox look. It's a minority of modders with huge egos that think they can improve on the original game's art style by spamming AI upscales that come with horrendous melted goop faces, and then the goyslop consumers who automatically assume that if the mod has higher resolution textures then it must be better than the original textures, they end up piling on to that mod page with praise and end up making every layman that comes across the game think the game is meant to look like that (the horrendous GOG cut comes with the DREAM mod pre-installed, for example).

As for cleaning up the dungeon generation algorithm, that is probably something for a mod to mess with rather than the developer. The dungeons in Daggerfall are procedurally generated, yes, but they were procedurally generated way back when Daggerfall was in development, so they are actually the same layout on every playthrough (this is how I've come to understand it at least, maybe I'm missing something). The random feeling of them pretty much comes from the fact that there are thousands of them and you will almost never be given a quest to the same one in normal gameplay unless you're in a very small region. I'm not even sure if the algorithm that was originally used to generate them would even be accessible by Interkarma or a modder to mess with it (as it was done during the development period), but I assume a new one could be written and applied to the game.

 

[V_K]

The dungeons in Daggerfall are procedurally generated, yes, but they were procedurally generated way back when Daggerfall was in development, so they are actually the same layout on every playthrough

Main quest dungeons and capital cities in Daggerfall are manually designed. Everything else is procedurally generated at runtime - but with a fixed seed. So yes, the general layout of all dungeons remains the same from game to game - but the position of the quest item and IIRC the type of monsters that inhabit the dungeon are randomly generated when the quest is created with a dynamic seed.
The dungeon generation algorithms are very much accessible to modders. Daggerfall Unity actually comes with a "smaller dungeons" setting that makes sidequest dungeons significantly more compact.
However, the dungeons are not generated the same way as in roguelikes, but put together from pre-made blocks. What DFU cannot do is change these blocks themselves.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Instead of pointless pretty graphics

honk

If someone is going to make the damned thing from scratch, why not at least update it to more modern graphical standards?

I agree with you concerning the need to update DF's graphics.

Lookin good. The new engine makes it a much smoother game. I'm sure people will start updating the graphics when he's done. Pretty awesome ;P

I'm sure people will start updating the graphics when he's done.

Sure hope so, because even with the new engine it still looks like shit because of the original art assets.

No, I've been holding out. I don't mind antique graphics but that low resolution just makes it so chunky you can barely tell what anything is

and so forth
first half of this thread is "mah grafx..."

 

[SharkClub]

The dungeons in Daggerfall are procedurally generated, yes, but they were procedurally generated way back when Daggerfall was in development, so they are actually the same layout on every playthrough

Main quest dungeons and capital cities in Daggerfall are manually designed. Everything else is procedurally generated at runtime - but with a fixed seed. So yes, the general layout of all dungeons remains the same from game to game - but the position of the quest item and IIRC the type of monsters that inhabit the dungeon are randomly generated when the quest is created with a dynamic seed.

Yeah I knew the main quest dungeons are manually designed. And yeah I knew that enemies/objectives in dungeons are randomly placed whenever you enter them. The fixed seed that is used to generate the procedurally generated dungeons at runtime, is that modifiable then? I can go type a different number in somewhere and get a totally different array of dungeon layouts? But by default all of the dungeons in an unmodified game are the same on every playthrough (layout-wise only of course) like I thought, right? I did think all this time that they were procgen'd during development and the algorithm never actually made it into the game files to be reverse engineered because why would it when you have the dungeons in the game already and don't plan to change them.

The dungeon generation algorithms are very much accessible to modders. Daggerfall Unity actually comes with a "smaller dungeons" setting that makes sidequest dungeons significantly more compact.
However, the dungeons are not generated the same way as in roguelikes, but put together from pre-made blocks.

Yeah I knew that the Smaller Dungeons option exists (I even suggested it a few pages back under the assumption it would be helpful for those who get lost easily), but I've never actually used it (I like big dungeons!) so I wasn't educated enough on the subject to know exactly what it modifies. Does it just shrink the scale of the place or does it chop off areas and turn them into dead ends earlier than having to run down a huge hallway and through 5 rooms to find a dead end with no objective? What exactly does that do?

What DFU cannot do is change these blocks themselves.

Can't as in "it's impossible" or can't as in it would break a bunch of layouts if they weren't all generated with the same or similar sizes? Why wouldn't one be able to change some of these dungeon blocks to add more furniture or add some ledges?

 

[Cliffworms]

The dungeons in Daggerfall are procedurally generated, yes, but they were procedurally generated way back when Daggerfall was in development, so they are actually the same layout on every playthrough

What DFU cannot do is change these blocks themselves.

Since the World Data Editor's release a year ago, it has been possible to edit dungeon blocks with Unity's editor interface. Someone with enough time on their hand could, for example, take a dungeon block and add objects to its layout according to a specific theme (like an orc stronghold). That block could then overwrite the existing so that all dungeons using it have the changes, or saved as a new one to use in a specific dungeon.

I've often toyed with the idea of taking dungeon blocks and making them fit more their dungeon type while keeping the same layout, but that's a lot of blocks to edit.
It's on the idea list, but I always find something else to work on instead.

Does it just shrink the scale of the place or does it chop off areas and turn them into dead ends earlier than having to run down a huge hallway and through 5 rooms to find a dead end with no objective? What exactly does that do?

Dungeons are made of several pre-built blocks. What the smaller dungeon setting does is keep only one block. As a reference for size, the starter dungeon is one block. So you could say that it chops off all blocks in the dungeon and keep only the one that is specified as the entry point.

 

[CootKeeper]

The dungeons in Daggerfall are procedurally generated, yes, but they were procedurally generated way back when Daggerfall was in development, so they are actually the same layout on every playthrough

What DFU cannot do is change these blocks themselves.

Since the World Data Editor's release a year ago, it has been possible to edit dungeon blocks with Unity's editor interface. Someone with enough time on their hand could, for example, take a dungeon block and add objects to its layout according to a specific theme (like an orc stronghold). That block could then overwrite the existing so that all dungeons using it have the changes, or saved as a new one to use in a specific dungeon.

I've often toyed with the idea of taking dungeon blocks and making them fit more their dungeon type while keeping the same layout, but that's a lot of blocks to edit.
It's on the idea list, but I always find something else to work on instead.

Does it just shrink the scale of the place or does it chop off areas and turn them into dead ends earlier than having to run down a huge hallway and through 5 rooms to find a dead end with no objective? What exactly does that do?

Dungeons are made of several pre-built blocks. What the smaller dungeon setting does is keep only one block. As a reference for size, the starter dungeon is one block. So you could say that it chops off all blocks in the dungeon and keep only the one that is specified as the entry point.

Welcome to the Kodex Cliffworms. Love your Daggerfall mods!

 

[d1r]

Man, with the right mods, you can really turn this game into a horror game. Using a mod which disables most torches and lights when entering a dungeon, and its fucking great for dungeon exploring.

 

[mastroego]

So I've installed something like 20 mods so far, but I want moar.
Just messing around a bit yet.

Didn't remember at all the mouse swing moves to attack.
I'm afraid I've already activated the Unity option to switch to a click attack. I'm old now, folks, I'm not in this for mouse acrobatics.

Tried a couple of starts.
First time, got killed by the tutorial rat, which didn't bode too well.
Second time, got killed by the tutorial bat.
Tutorial Imp didn't even need to intervene.
Well.

 

[Efe]

What is the problem?
no hits? no damage? no health?
phobia of animals?

 

[SharkClub]

Man, with the right mods, you can really turn this game into a horror game. Using a mod which disables most torches and lights when entering a dungeon, and its fucking great for dungeon exploring.

View attachment 31988

I've actually been trying to get a combination of these mods to work together for this effect but to no avail. My dungeons are as bright as ever even if I turn all the lighting settings down in DFU and mod settings. Which mods specifically are you using to achieve this?

 

[d1r]

Man, with the right mods, you can really turn this game into a horror game. Using a mod which disables most torches and lights when entering a dungeon, and its fucking great for dungeon exploring.

View attachment 31988

I've actually been trying to get a combination of these mods to work together for this effect but to no avail. My dungeons are as bright as ever even if I turn all the lighting settings down in DFU and mod settings. Which mods specifically are you using to achieve this?

Improved Interior Lighting
Darker Dungeons
Better Ambience

 

[SharkClub]

Aye, that's what I'm using. Guess I goofed some mod settings.

 

[mastroego]

What is the problem?
no hits? no damage? no health?
phobia of animals?

I've reverted the attack click thing, I'll try the vanilla setting, but it sure needs getting used to.
Hitting something is hard and I get hit back for big damage pretty often even by bats and such.
Not sure how one's supposed to do the first dungeon.

It's just an autogenerated test-character though. No optimization or anything. I don't really remember the game.
Can the first dungeon be skipped?

 

[SharkClub]

What class did you pick? You'll probably spawn with a weapon that applies to one of your primary/major skills, just use the weapon that is the highest grade material of the highest skill level you have. You absolutely can't play this game with a close quarters combat focus if you have 5% in Blunt Weapons and want to use a Flail, for example. You can also just run past every enemy in the first dungeon to reach the exit if you are determined to run a hipster build, but really the initial dungeon and how your character performs in it kinda sets the tone for the rest of the game, if you can't even kill the rat/bat/thief in the first stretch you're not going to be able to kill anything else, and you won't be able to earn money via (most) quests because most of them involve combat with creatures worse than rats, which means you won't be able to pay for training to up your weapon skills. Privateer's Hold is by no means impossible, it's actually a good tutorial imo because it lets you know right away if you've made a dogshit custom class by accident, it effectively filters bad builds from reaching the open world.

 

[d1r]

Aye, that's what I'm using. Guess I goofed some mod settings.

You need to completely tone down the Dungeon Lighting/Brightness setting to 0 in the Better Ambience mod.

 

[mastroego]

What class did you pick? You'll probably spawn with a weapon that applies to one of your primary/major skills, just use the weapon that is the highest grade material of the highest skill level you have. You absolutely can't play this game with a close quarters combat focus if you have 5% in Blunt Weapons and want to use a Flail, for example. You can also just run past every enemy in the first dungeon to reach the exit if you are determined to run a hipster build, but really the initial dungeon and how your character performs in it kinda sets the tone for the rest of the game, if you can't even kill the rat/bat/thief in the first stretch you're not going to be able to kill anything else, and you won't be able to earn money via (most) quests because most of them involve combat with creatures worse than rats, which means you won't be able to pay for training to up your weapon skills. Privateer's Hold is by no means impossible, it's actually a good tutorial imo because it lets you know right away if you've made a dogshit custom class by accident, it effectively filters bad builds from reaching the open world.

Ok I see one has to take it seriously from the start.
I was just trying to get out to see how some of the mods work.
(I went with Vanilla Enhanced BTW, since it adds model variety)

I still have a lot of mods to check. I was tempted to go with the Realism stuff too, and when it's all set start with the "real" character made through the questions.
I'd prefer to avoid powerplaying and such.

 

[SharkClub]

To be clear, I'm not suggesting you go full autism minmax, but having a weapon skill you can rely on in a game where 95% of the content is combat-related is pretty much a requirement.

 

[index.php]

Can the first dungeon be skipped?

launcher → Advanced → Gameplay → Start In Dungeon

 

[Puukko]

Man, with the right mods, you can really turn this game into a horror game. Using a mod which disables most torches and lights when entering a dungeon, and its fucking great for dungeon exploring.

View attachment 31988

I quite like the look I got for towns at night.

 

[d1r]

Puukko
What sky mod are you using?

 

[Puukko]

Puukko
What sky mod are you using?

https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity/mods/376

 

[SharkClub]

I'm using that one too, though there is another one that is much closer to vanilla (Skyboxer) that I'd rather be using, which is unfortunately totally fucking broken at anything over 60 FOV for some reason, had to make do with Dynamic Skies for stuff to not look like ass with Distant Terrain.

 

[mastroego]

So I was thinking about adding:

- Roleplay and Realism
- Climate and Calories
- The Penwick Papers
- Skulldudgery
- Bossfall (too many changes, unsure)
- Lousy Licans
- Vampiric Options
- Repair Tools
- Harvestable Crops

Too difficult?

 

[Cliffworms]

So I was thinking about adding:

- Roleplay and Realism
- Climate and Calories
- The Penwick Papers
- Skulldudgery
- Bossfall (too many changes, unsure)
- Lousy Licans
- Vampiric Options
- Repair Tools
- Harvestable Crops

Too difficult?

You'll be fine I'm sure. Climate and Calories add some more micro-management with the survival elements, but I love it. It gives a meaning to gold since you now have to spend it on food and lodgings, along with proper clothing for the elements. Combining it with Travel Options, Realistic Wagons and Basic Roads makes the adventure of traveling between cities as fun, if not more, than the quest you're on. It sometimes plays like the Oregon Trail where traveling in the mountains during winter can be a death sentence if you're not prepared.

Note that Skulldudgery changes legal mechanics. Guards who simply spot you doing a crime will drop your reputation instead of having to be hit first to get the rep drop. It does make criminal activities more fun in my book, though.

I can't vouch for Bossfall. From what I read on it, it's not really my taste.

Welcome to the Kodex Cliffworms. Love your Daggerfall mods!

Thanks! I'm glad you're enjoying them. I've been lurking that thread for some time actually. It has been a very interesting read so far.

 

[mastroego]

Thanks, I have decided indeed to go full overhaul.

Some advise against it on the first run, but gaming time is limited.
Besides, I already play Skyrim Requiem + Frostfall + Sunhelm, it's not entirely a new concept for me.
We'll see.
I'm more worried about unleveling enemies and such to be honest, but other mods I've added are meant to play with those....