Darklands designer Arnold Hendrick Q&A on Steam forum

[rezaf]

Gollop.

Pfft. He never even tried to remade his magnum opus, and what he's currently showcasing reeks a bit of NuXcom, doesn't it?

Maybe it's asking a bit much of the old guard, too. Many made those great games decades back, when they were still young, forced into tight design considerations by memory and CPU limitations - full of ideas and willing to crunch a couple of weekends to make sure that dream feature sees the light of day.
These days? They're used to higher grade positions, with 9-5 workdays, jaded by the UI of their iPhones and generally much, much more conserative - as is totally normal by elder people.

They used to be the "A-Team", now they're "Matlock".

 

[Kev Inkline]

Matlock a p cool gentleman, though.

 

[Infinitron]

Pfft. He never even tried to remade his magnum opus, and what he's currently showcasing reeks a bit of NuXcom, doesn't it?

Too early to tell, and I think we should know by now that "remaking" isn't such a great thing.

All I know is that seemingly uniquely among oldsters (which I define as developers who were making games in the 1980s) he still seems to know about and care for nitty gritty game design and mechanics.

 

[Shinji]

All this is probably because I refused to spend time on self-promotion, propogandize my skills and contributions, or spend time courting the game press for fame. In hindsight, this was a huge mistake.

I don't know about that.
I think it's better to show your worth by doing than by talking, and in most companies they probably want someone that won't say a word if a higher-up decides to change the design of the game (in a bad way) in order to profit some more.

I'm looking at you Todd.

 

[octavius]

I'm looking at you Todd.

 

[Elhoim]

Finally, have you had a chance to talk to the folks at Oblivion?

No wonder he answered about Bethesda and Zenimax.

 

[Lurker King]

His 10 million estimate is way off. A faithful sequel to Darklands without any of the bells and whistles of AAA gaming shouldn't even cost 1 million to make, let alone 10.

text-adventures -> more artists -> more money

 

[LESS T_T]

Finally, have you had a chance to talk to the folks at Oblivion?

No wonder he answered about Bethesda and Zenimax.

Well, someone corrected the mistake.

I know nothing about Bethesda people being your fans (I'm not even sure it's the same Oblivion SchyteSikle is referring to; it sounded like the name of a studio from his wording), but in case you weren't aware I can tell you Josh Sawyer from Obsidian claimed several times in the past to love Darklands like few others RPGs.

Ah! THAT Obsidian Entertainment, the independent game studio most recently known for building the game "Tyranny" (which Paradox recently published).

"THAT Obsidian", heh.

 

[Infinitron]

MRY doing some trolling: https://twitter.com/RPGCodex/status/819244950080651277

 

[MRY]

Not trolling. Arnold Hendrick is among the game designers I most admire -- Gollop Brothers, Murry Brothers, Reiche and Ford, I mean, there are others, but Hendricks is basically top tier, since he made two games that independently have been huge influences on my understanding of game design (Darklands and Barbarian Prince), while having the awesome kind of old school nerd life that makes me think of, I dunno, my grandfather working at NASA or something. If you look at what he's done, there's no reason to think he's blowing smoke on the $10M figure; he's spent most of his career managing projects and if you read his interview as a whole, he seems to really grasp what he's saying. So to me, the major takeaway is that it hugely supports my point in the Banner Saga thread: someone of his talents has no interest in just doing a retread of his old work, he wants to make something much more ambitious.

The Dungeon Rats thing blew my mind, too. A few years ago I discovered that someone I'd met on the Internet decades ago through kvetching and musing about fantasy literature was now a regular correspondent of Guy Gavriel Kay -- one of the authors we both had liked -- and she'd published a novel that he'd read and praised. This is the same kind of thing. Notwithstanding my experience on TTON, I still think of these old school great developers as existing in a separate universe -- men (and a few women) of old who could perform feats that would require ten of us weaklings and a turnkey Unity system to do today. So when you discover that actually, no, he's just a dude playing games that a dude posting on Codex made, it's kind of neat.

 

[LESS T_T]

Further on the hypothetical sequel:

question

In the meantime I took the time to read the entirety of the thread and it was very interesting to have a look at your insight on the development and what should change in a sequel (which I would pay for in a heartbeat, for the record).

Hell, frankly I would pay good money even just for a remake of the first. I wouldn't even ask to change much. Increased res, a UI update and mod support would already make it worthy of a full price, as far as I'm concerned.

On a side note, I was thinking about your considerations on what a sequel should look like and while I see where you come from, given the current market, I think there would be more cost-effective ways to make the game look charming without ballooning the budget out of control.

Personally I think detailed 3D assests would be a dead end. You could easily spend the biggest chunk on your potential budget on that area and still come off with something that many would dismiss as "cheap and not up to modern standards".

In my fantasies, the modern sequel to Darklands that I never got always had an art direction inspired by Another World:

https://lh3.ggpht.com/fn5B56wZDJHs_sNy8I98-Pzz0vGwDaFydZ7Y6zgWAmeTZfaDUeoqFFT-cZ1jhtLxYzE=h900

Simple, clean and minimalistic low poly art, good animations for characters/monsters, loads of charm and surprisingly close to the original, while clearly improved above that.

P.S. What was possibly my favorite subsystem in the entire game was the "clerical magic", with faith as a currency, Saints to study and pray, etc.
Was that part of your core design as well or some late addition?

SEQUEL FEATURE SET

From a business standpoint, I'm all about providing a good ROI on investment. Every game should offer the potential of making "really big money" to the investor(s). That means at least a 5x to 10x return. On the other side of the equation, I'm also all about 40 hour weeks for everyone working on the project. That means you need fine judgment about (a) what features are needed for commercial success, and (b) how much time it really takes to do accomplish various goals.

I agree that a "strategic map" system of travel is best. When encounters or decision-points occur, text-based interaction screens/windows, dressed up with "quick sketch" style art, is best for solo RPGs. Unless, of course, you're Blizzard overspending on a Diablo sequel, or making a giganto-budget MMORPG.

The graphical cost comes in combat. From a financial point of view, I believe a realistic-looking real-time combat system is needed. I would suggest a battlefield built of modular geomorphic sections with constrained boundries, upon which fights occur. Otherwise you are drawn into the Diablo problem of building an entire world to move through, simply to serve the costly ideal of "seamless movement from fight to fight." It's more cost-efficient to build just what you need for the fight. Let the gameplay between fights use a much cheaper graphic system.

My budget estimates in previous posts assumed a realtime battle system on limited battlefields, like the original Darklands, but updated with modern art. That includes building 3D battlefield terrain in geomorphic sections out of smaller but still reusable 3D elements. I greatly admire the artistic possibilities of modern Dx engines with reasonably capable graphic cards. Ignoring this capability is more appropriate for a mobile game than a PC game.

Regarding art, recognize that good animation is as costly as poly count, texturing, or lighting. In fact, high poly count art is often faster (cheaper) than working on pleasing results with a low ploy count. Just as important as polys is textue maps and overlays, with light maps, that interact smoothly with well-done animation, supported by a well-conceived "color bible" for characters, enemies and world, plus a lighting system for the entire thing. Simplifying just a few elements isn't a "magic wand" for reducing art cost.

I realize that Tuco and others contributing to this thread have different opinions. You seem more engaged by the game design, and less by graphic appearances or a well-made UI. Perhaps we should agree to disagree. There is plenty of room on Steam for new games of all types, built with all types of budgets and all types of financial goals.


CLERICAL "MAGIC"

From a design standpoint, I got WAY too deep into all the different Saints, and didn't spend enough time crafting better gameplay. I agree that spending "faith" is invoke divine assistance works. It's also very much in keeping with the late medieval "divine accounting" approach to faith, which had its ultimate expression in the purchase of indulgences.

However, from a game design standpoint, the system has weaknesses. As a player, you can't mix and match much. You invoke a saint and have the "buff." Worse, some saints are WAY more useful than others. A better game system would have significantly different costs for different levels and types of assistance over different time periods. It would have different "specializations" within the church (either philosophy or organization based) that would lead to different sets of benefits.

Paradoxically, this too-deep-a-dive into a vast, single pile of saints had a hidden cost - the art budget for the clerical system was much higher than the alchemy system. I'd like to think that a redone system would be more elegant, less costly, and more fun for the player.

 

[MRY]

I love reading this kind of analysis. The thing that strikes me as kind of odd, though, is that I thought most people disliked Darklands' combat and basically viewed it as a necessary evil (I know I did) as opposed to a great feature. But reading his posts here and elsewhere, it's clear that much of his focus was on the combat.

That said, it seems like the thing to do would be to hook him up with the Mount and Blade people. There is a great deal of overlap between that project and his dream project. It's been ages since I last played M&B (I think it was still in beta) but a major weakness was the thinness of the "campaign." But the basic toolset of M&B seems to cover much of what he wants.

 

[Infinitron]

I love reading this kind of analysis. The thing that strikes me as kind of odd, though, is that I thought most people disliked Darklands' combat and basically viewed it as a necessary evil (I know I did) as opposed to a great feature. But reading his posts here and elsewhere, it's clear that much of his focus was on the combat.

See our interview - he's quite proud of himself for having anticipated the decline of unpopular and non-selling turn-based combat and the rise of RTwP.

But yes, I'd have more respect for his mercenary attitude if it was backed up by a more up-to-date and holistic understanding of what people like in the genre.

 

[Morkar Left]

I love reading this kind of analysis. The thing that strikes me as kind of odd, though, is that I thought most people disliked Darklands' combat and basically viewed it as a necessary evil (I know I did) as opposed to a great feature. But reading his posts here and elsewhere, it's clear that much of his focus was on the combat.

That said, it seems like the thing to do would be to hook him up with the Mount and Blade people. There is a great deal of overlap between that project and his dream project. It's been ages since I last played M&B (I think it was still in beta) but a major weakness was the thinness of the "campaign." But the basic toolset of M&B seems to cover much of what he wants.

There was some mod for M&B which tried to recreate Darklands. I think it was for version 0.75+. Development stopped early but I thought as well it would be an intriguing mix.

 

[MRY]

A mercenary who wants to make sure his employer profits and his men are well treated doesn't seem particularly contemptible. :D I get the sense that he likes real-time combat in and of itself. But then, mind you, this is someone who insisted that D&D could only be played via phone or mail, not in person, so it is possible that he's a little crazy.

 

[iluvatar]

text-adventures -> more artists -> more money

For a typical modern game, you need concept artists, 3D artists, animators, etc. For an illustrated text adventure, you just need one or two concept artists capable of churning out a few illustrations a day. There are plenty of artists out there who work that fast.

 

[Kev Inkline]

At least 500-1000% ROI sounds crazy for a crpg with a budget of 10M. It's clear that what he'd like to do is meant for a far larger audience than just for the crpg enthusiast crowd, since the game would have to sell millions of copies.

 

[Lurker King]

For a typical modern game, you need concept artists, 3D artists, animators, etc. For an illustrated text adventure, you just need one or two concept artists capable of churning out a few illustrations a day. There are plenty of artists out there who work that fast.

Dude, you need much more art for a text-adventure game.

 

[Galdred]

At least 500-1000% ROI sounds crazy for a crpg with a budget of 10M. It's clear that what he'd like to do is meant for a far larger audience than just for the crpg enthusiast crowd, since the game would have to sell millions of copies.

I think he is talking "Max ROI", ie if everything goes as planned.
I think it is more or less the size of the niche, not the expected ROI.
500-1000% ROI is not that rare in videogames, as you need a few games to make up money for all those that don't get finished, or don't do well (so around 95% of the games that start production).

 

[MRY]

I have to admit that I'm a little skeptical that there is any scenario in which a sequel to Darklands could make $50M-$100M -- a 5x or 10x multiplier on a $10M budget. If this estimate is at all accurate, only eight games on Steam made that much money in 2016. Obviously that's only one year's income, but once you go down the list, you see that even within the top 25 games are titles that made less than $20M, meaning a game would potentially need to be among the top 25 grossing games for three straight years to make $50M, let alone $100M. I mean, it could happen, but assuming he's right about everything it seems like a pretty strong case for not making Darklands 2.

 

[Kev Inkline]

At least 500-1000% ROI sounds crazy for a crpg with a budget of 10M. It's clear that what he'd like to do is meant for a far larger audience than just for the crpg enthusiast crowd, since the game would have to sell millions of copies.

I think he is talking "Max ROI", ie if everything goes as planned.

I think that's a very liberal assumption, as he clearly says minimum 500%:

"That means at least a 5x to 10x return."

I think it is more or less the size of the niche, not the expected ROI.
500-1000% ROI is not that rare in videogames, as you need a few games to make up money for all those that don't get finished, or don't do well (so around 95% of the games that start production).

I don't dispute that some games sell huge numbers, but in the type of games that are in general well received in codex, I'd say it's more an exception. Pillars sold what, 750K copies, average price 20$ or so? WL2 average price was 22$ and it sold 500K-600K copies. At least figstarter for WL3 assumes that the average price would be 22$ or so, and breakeven point at 400K copies sold.
What I am saying that the game he'd like to make would definitely be something more mainstream than a Darklands 2 or a spiritual sequel to that.

 

[Alienman]

He should make the sequel with the help of the Battle Brothers devs, Overhype studios.

They know how to operate low cost and are fans of his game.

 

[iluvatar]

For a typical modern game, you need concept artists, 3D artists, animators, etc. For an illustrated text adventure, you just need one or two concept artists capable of churning out a few illustrations a day. There are plenty of artists out there who work that fast.

Dude, you need much more art for a text-adventure game.

Hmm, i'm not so sure. The number of unique illustrations I had in my head was 2,400 (2 artists producing 3 illustrations per day for roughly 200 days per year over a 2 year period).

Now let's assume that players are going to be reading and making decisions fast enough to see a new illustration every minute (which is an extreme example - most will play much slower). It's going to take them 40 hours to see 2,400 illustrations. That's a decent amount of gametime without even taking into consideration the amount of time the player will inevitably spend revisting locations, as well as the time spent engaged in combat.

I would actually be curious to know how many unique illustrations Darklands had. It's been a while since I last played it so my memory is a bit blurry, but I remember a lot of repitition even for new locations.

 

[Invictus]

As one of my favorite RPGs of all time (tied with Wizardry 7) I am kind of conflicted by this; while I understand he would want to update some aspects of the game (such as providing tooltips, better explinations for the job and their possible benefits and adding real classical music) maybe part of the charm of that game is that most of that information was available in the form of their manual and hint book.
I still remember fondly reading the manual and letting my imagination rum wild with the possibilities and bestiary, which appropriately enough had a few creatures (like werewolfs) that never showed up but just reading it and thinking what would happen made it part of the experience like researching saints, learning about the hanseatic league and the knights of the temple.
That game actually got me into learning a lot about the era the game was based on and I honestly believe no game other than perhaps Dark Souls has gotten me more interested in learning about the actual background and origins of the design of the game and its setting
Regarding the combat... I wouldnt say I loved it, but it was functional, strategic and surprisingly deep, with all sorts of cool ideas like weapon penetration and the usage of potions and saints as "magic system" which is still fun if a bit cumbersome especially for the loot distribution aspects.
Adding a proper 3D system (like say Divinity Original Sin) sounds very good for updating the system in Hendrik's 10 million dolar idea... but imagine a baroque artstyle 2D system similar in graphics and style to the Pillars of Eternity with those gorgeous backgrounds... now thay would be a very proper update to Darklands
Its is all pie in the sky whatsoever, we will probably never get to see it but we can still dream

 

[rezaf]

The ROI thing amuses me to no end.
I can picture the guy sitting in a conference with what he calls the white knight investor, going on about aiming for (at least) a 5x to 10x return on his investment.
Then the white knight asks: "So ... how did that work out with the game you want to make a sequel to?", and Arnold replies: "Oh, that one. Yeah, it almosted bankrupted the company I made it for.".