David Gaider lubs us.

[Volourn]

However, whether or not BIo makes good or bad games is not the issue in this thread.

Though; I must say; you think all of BIO's games are piss poor efforts yet you continued to buy them all the way up to, and including NWN. Perhaps; you should learn how to spend your money more wisely.Seriously, after seeing how crappy MW is; I ain't buying any more Bethseda products either. I'm just glad that I got to play my brother's second hand version of the earlier ES series to realize the crap that Bethseda makes. Then again, you don't see me going around to a million different places writing eons of stuff on how shitty their games are. Oops... just did.

 

[Mistress]

However, whether or not BIo makes good or bad games is not the issue in this thread.

Though; I must say; you think all of BIO's games are piss poor efforts yet you continued to buy them all the way up to, and including NWN. Perhaps; you should learn how to spend your money more wisely.Seriously, after seeing how crappy MW is; I ain't buying any more Bethseda products either. I'm just glad that I got to play my brother's second hand version of the earlier ES series to realize the crap that Bethseda makes. Then again, you don't see me going around to a million different places writing eons of stuff on how shitty their games are. Oops... just did.

Opinions are wonderful things. Someone argues that X game/games developer is shitty, you argue that Y game/games developer is shitty and so on, like some great big merry go round. Merry go rounds always made me feel sick as a kid. Not a lot has changed.

 

[Volourn]

That's true. Then again, some of us like merry- go -rounds. :wink:

 

[Spazmo]

However, whether or not BIo makes good or bad games is not the issue in this thread.

Isn't it? I think most people here dislike Gaider more for his poor design ethic than his comments towards RPG Codex or Troika.

Though; I must say; you think all of BIO's games are piss poor efforts yet you continued to buy them all the way up to, and including NWN. Perhaps; you should learn how to spend your money more wisely.

Like I've mentioned a couple times, Bio's previous efforts were fun as action/adventure games (and I didn't buy them, either. Borrowed them all from friends, although perhaps that's not strictly relevant). I had hoped NWN would at least be on the level of BG2.

It wasn't, and that's being nice.

Seriously, after seeing how crappy MW is; I ain't buying any more Bethseda products either. I'm just glad that I got to play my brother's second hand version of the earlier ES series to realize the crap that Bethseda makes. Then again, you don't see me going around to a million different places writing eons of stuff on how shitty their games are. Oops... just did.

Why not? If you think the game was utterly terrible, why not express your opinions? That's what the forums are for, you know. We want your opinions so we can tear them apart if we disagree!

 

[Mistress]

That's true. Then again, some of us like merry- go -rounds. :wink:

Evidently. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Volourn]

Spazmo: Well.. Sometimes that isn't always evident... just look at the two thread started about him here - both were about his evil comments about RPGCodex, and the supposed insults at Troika. However, well just have to disagree on the supposed poor design ethic you think he has for obvious reasons.

Well.. I can't, and won't try to force you to like NWN as much as their previous games. That's just the way it is. However, unlike you, some peole here totally abhor the Bg series in every way yet still scooped up NWN right away. At least you can say you actually liked the other games so I can udnersatnd why you decided to try NWN.

I have posted my opinions (and, still do from tie to time) on MW many times. However, I'm the type of person who'd rather much discuss something he likes than something I don't - espicially when it comes to games which I play to enjoy. I didn't enjoy MW; and just want to move on. Anyways, this isn't a thread about MW so it's my fault for bringing it up even if it was to illustrate a point. I, have in fact, criticed BIO on various issues though so even though I like their games overall; I have never claimed them to be perfect. I have no problem with people criticizing BIO; but if I feel I disagree with th criticism; I will share my opinion on the matter.

In the end, I'd rather discuss the strengths and wekanesses of games I like the Bg series, NWN, Fo series, and so on; so forth; and keep mW in the trash.


Mistress: I guess. All in good fun.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Er... isn't discussing the weaknesess of games already discussing something you don't like?

 

[Volourn]

LOL Please leave logic out of this. Thanks.

Anyways, it's mroe on the lines that sinces I like these games in spite of their weaknesses; I can discuss them in hopes that the devloper in question will keep the good stuff and fix the things that need improvement. Meanwhile, games I dislike tend to be of the sort thata re virtually hopeless; I write them off as lost causes and move.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Aye, fair enough :wink:

 

[Jed]

Yes, BIO are proud of their games, and why shouldn't they be? They are good games for the most part, and liked many to your. Also, they have never stated that their games are perfect. In fact, Gaider himself has said plenty of times he wishes that the henchmen in the OC would have been a lot better. He knows full well they weren't as good as they could be. Geez.. Sorry, BIo can be as self critical as any other gaming company.

Bullshit. I was just in my friendly neighborhood game store, and something caught my eye: the back of a game box, a small quote: "The best RPG just got better!" That game box? Shadows of Undrentide? How does Bio calling their game t3h bestest evar!!11 jibe with your assertion that they've "never stated that their games are perfect"? Calling something the best of anything implies perfection in its field. This kind of unrepentant arrogance and ego-stroking in face of vast short-comings is why we hate Bioware so much.

As an apologist, Volourn, you need to do better research.

 

[Volourn]

You should do better research. Bio, as a developer, doesn't do to the game boxes.

 

[Jed]

You should do better research. Bio, as a developer, doesn't due to the game boxes.

Oh Bioware has absolutely no control over how the game is marketed? Hm. So if this evil, oppressive publisher who enslaves Bioware to make games and markets them as t3h bestest evar! against the pleas of Gaider and company ("No! Don't say we're the best, we're not perfect! We're just trying to make do with what we've got! We are humble developers, you must tell the public the truth! Attica!!!") decides to publish the games in a shit brown box covered in swastickas and pictures of the goatse.cx ass, then Bio would just throw up it's collective hands and concede defeat? "Well, if the publisher thinks it's best..."

The sad thing is that you actually believe this shit, that Bioware has no complicity in the hype wermacht that is the only thing related to NWN not done half-assed. I hope you're at least on the payroll...

 

[Volourn]

*yawn* Every game box talks about how great the game is. Name one so-called bad game that had the following on the box: "This game sucks ass; don't buy it!". Please, I can't believe you think BIo is special in this regard.

Did Arcanum have on its box the following: "The combat sucks; but the role-playing is awesome"? I think not. btw, Before you get all mad because I mentioned Arcanum; I personally liked its combat but I do know that many here don't.

I guess you expected NWN's box to have this on it: "NWN is awful - RPGCodex". I think you need to grow up a tad.

I'm sure BIo has control over lots of the publicity; but I seriously doubt the box is one of them. That is Infrogrames/Atari's job, after all. Just ask Troika who weren't only given the oppurtunity to give suggestions to Atari, and they werne't guaranteed to be used for TOEE's game box.

Then again, flame on, as that's the best you can do. OMG The back of the box says NWN rules all; BIO must be arrogant. LMAO Tsk, tsk. You better take some marketing classes at your local college.

 

[DrattedTin]

No, Volourn, but hyping your game on most boxes is always critical and objective.

They say stuff like,

"Acclaimed by <such and such>"

and

"Featuring..."

Then list all the bullet-points and things that make it awesome. They don't say, "Hey, this game is the bestest ever."

 

[Volourn]

Yawn, you guys crack me up. Seriously, your hard on for BIO gets funnier by the post. Keep up the good work.

 

[Jed]

Yawn, you guys crack me up. Seriously, your hard on for BIO gets funnier by the post. Keep up the good work.

That's your response to everything. Someone here makes a post critical of Bloware, you chime in with a half-baked quip that X dev/game/site "does the same thing," someone here posts a response backed with facts or at least logic that disputes your bullshit, then you either don't respond, or post some stupid shit like the above. Rinse, wash, repeat.

In regards to the box, how about simply "Neverwinter Nights just got better"? I don't think I've ever before seen any game bill itself as "the best." That's the kind of marketing when you're going for brand loyalty in a binary market: either Coke or Pepsi, Ford or Chevy, etc. If you're trying to appeal to a market where the consumers patronize mutliple entities of the same or similar products, such as pop music, you don't say Brittany Spears is teh bestest evar!, because it's alienating to fans who like Brittany and Christina Aguilara. There's your marketing theory.

Anyway, you said Bloware never said NWN is perfect, I provided proof that if they didn't say it, it was said in their name with their permission, thus making them complicit in the statement, thus for all intents and purposes, they said it. They sure didn't disagree with it.

 

[Volourn]

Nope, not true. In fact, it's only been maybe 5, or so people. If I recall correctly, I haven't Iaccused of St. Proverbius of such a thing. In fact, I even gave him thumbs up on his review of NWN. Perhaps, it's because you bring up lame arguments like "OMG, on the cover of SOU; the words 'the best game just got better' is written. That shows how egotistical BIO is. OMG OMG They are so bad." Thatd espite the fatc that as mentioned; BIo like other developers do NOT have control over what's on the box. That is the hands of the publishing and advertising monkies at Atari. That is an undisputable fact which youa re trying to dispute. Lame. Also, the fact that BIo has criticed certain aspects of their games on more than one occassion which you promptly ignore because they won't admit to NWN sucking. On top of this, it's common sense that the goal of amrketing (read: Atari) is to hype the product. All companies do this. And, I have never avoided any topic about BIO so please don't lie. However, as all topics due; they do eventually die and no longer have any real purpose so I, like others, move on.

Keep spinning your wheels. It's what you are best it.

 

[Jed]

Also, they have never stated that their games are perfect.

Nope, not true. In fact, it's only been maybe 5, or so people. If I recall correctly, I don't I've accused of St. Proverbius of such a thing. In fact, I even gave him thumbs up on his review of NWN. Perhaps, it's because you bring up lame arguments like "OMG, on the cover of SOU; the words 'the best game just got better' is written. That shows how egotistical BIO is. OMG OMG They are so bad." Thatd espite the fatc that as mentioned; BIo like other developers do NOT have control over what's on the box. That is the hands of the publishing and advertising monkies at Atari. That is an undisputable fact which youa re trying to dispute. Lame. Also, the fact that BIo has criticed certain aspects of their games on more than one occassion which you promptly ignore because they won't admit to NWN sucking. On top of this, it's common sense that the goal of amrketing (read: Atari) is to hype the product. All companies do this. And, I have never avoided any topic about BIO so please don't lie. However, as all topics due; they do eventually die and no longer have any real purpose so I, like others, move on. Keep spinning your wheels. It's what you are best it.

Try a little more reading comprehension on my previous post. I was disputing a statement you made in defense of Dave Gaider's honor, don't try to sidestep it:

Anyway, you said Bloware never said NWN is perfect, I provided proof that if they didn't say it, it was said in their name with their permission, thus making them complicit in the statement, thus for all intents and purposes, they said it. They sure didn't disagree with it.

Great to see you continuing your fine pattern of interaction on these boards detailed in my previous post.

Geez.. Sorry, BIo can be as self critical as any other gaming company.

Yup, they're so self-critical.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, you are trying to dispute my statement that BIO dons't think their games ar eperfect. I have stated sveral instances where they have criticed their own work. Gaider's own words on the NWN henchmen in the originalc ampaign illustrates that he felt they could have been done better. Yeah; they think their games are perfect.

Yup, Jed wrote what you did. Good for the both of you. That doens't change the fact that BIO knows that NWN isn't perfect and have admitted to it over and over again. Are they proud of the game? Yes, they are. Do they think it is perfect? No.

OMG They are proud of winning awards for their work. By golly, you got them good, now. Still doesn't change the fact that they don't think NWN is perfect. No matter how many times you say otherwise; it won't make it so.

 

[Araanor]

That doens't change the fact that BIO knows that NWN isn't perfect and have admitted to it over and over again. Are they proud of the game? Yes, they are. Do they think it is perfect? No.

Which doesn't change the fact that they keep saying that they're the bestest developers evar in interviews and press releases.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, and no other developer does that?

 

[Araanor]

Can't think of any, besides of that guy that were supposed to make us his bitches.

Examples?

 

[Volourn]

Troika, for starters. That interview with Mr. Cain when he disses both BIS, and BIO for doing a "half breed redition of the D&D rules in PST & NWN" isn't exactly full fo humility, ain't it? Now, of course, the question wasa fool; but still.

Then again, BIO isn't too bad consideirng that he pretty much stated that he believes that if anyone can pull of TOEE's planned stuff it's Troika. Not to mention it seems he really loved Arcanum. Yeah, he thinks other developers suck and are beneath him. I think not. That's a pretty damn good compliment from sone who thinks he's the best, and the others suck, ain't it?

 

[Vault Dweller]

"guarantee you that there's plenty of compromises" - All this shows is that thre will eb compromises made by Troika to accomplish thier goal. That is a fact coonfirmed by Troika themselves. Yeah, that Gaider, he sure is hating on the competition.

You know, Volourn, you are an alright guy, I like you, you have a good sense of humor, you make good arguments, but whenever the subject of a conversation touches Bio, you just loose any sense of logic, common sense, etc. Have you ever noticed it yourself?

Look at this line " I guarantee you that there's plenty of compromises". Compromise in that context was used in a negative way. It's fact. More specifically Gaider meant that some parts/areas/features would be left out/underdeveloped and he was way out of his fucking line to comment on that. It was very unprofessional. It's a fact too. If you disagree I'd like to hear your arguments

"guarantee you that there's plenty of compromises" - All this shows is that thre will eb compromises made by Troika to accomplish thier goal.

Are you really that naive? Common, be serious. Does he have any rights to talk or mention potential shortcomings of a game, any game? No. Can he guarantee that there will be plenty of those? No. Does he know for sure what if any compromises are made? No. That makes him speculating on an unreleased game. You and I can speculate on things, Gaider shouldn't and that is the fucking point.

"they're all perfect until they're released" - Another fact about games that aren't released. btw, This comment is directed at ALL games; not just TOEE, including NWN.

Yes, of course, it's so nice of him to tell us all the facts about the industry. How about "ToEE? It's that TB game just like POR2 right? What? No, I was not implying that it's gonna suck too, I was merely using my vast knowledge to remind you that POR2 also used TB system" Yeah, right.

I think your problem is your hatred of BIo combined for your love fest with Troika makes you blind to the facts that you jump out defensively.

First, I don't hate Bio, I really don't. Here is my post from the first page of "what is it about bioware" thread

I can see how a person could be curious about all anti-BioWare sentiments here. My answer is simple. Considering that making games is a form of art, BioWare represents a corporate take on that aimed at mass market. As a result their games are intentially dumbed down and simplified, from character development to combat.

Where do you see the hate here, I dislike them and do that for a reason above, that's all. I like Tim & Co for 2 reasons: Fallout and Arcanum. It would have been very boring game-wise without these 2 games. That's very understandable, I believe. So like I said I don't care about Bio and/or Gaider, but I think that it was not his place to make these comments just like JE should not have jumped to write his "in response" speech. The fact that they did though, is an ultimate proof that Troika is somehow bothering them. Why? I can guess, but that would be making stuff up and I want to stick to the facts for now

 

[Volourn]

VD, that's fair. I can understand that to a point about neither Gaider, and Sawyer shouldn't be speculating on Troika's game at all. Then again, just like Cain's interview they wer epretty much brought to taks by either jerk off interviewers or silly posters who basically pushed them for their thoughts. This si why after my initial blast against Cain for that interview where he literlly attacks BIO, and BIS for their take on D&D on the computer; I can kinda get past since it is true he was jumped on by the moronic interviewer.

How could you tell that I 'lose myself when we discuss BIO's since that's pretty much all what is discussed around - at least most of the convos I take part in. Yes, I defend BIO. Perhaps, it's because, overall, I like their games. I mean, if someone were to blast the Fo's or Arcanum; I'm sure evrybody ehre (including myself) would come rushing to Troika's aid. Remember, once again, I don't think NWN or BIo is perfect. I mean,s eriously, I don't. I have criticed them more than once when i feel it is warranted. I mean, here is my initial post on this site. Inside it, while I admit my like for NWN; I also state some of my dislikes of it quite clearly: http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1252 so I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can think I am a NWN or BIo fanboy when I rate the game a 75% (far from perfect); and actually criticize it on more thana few things. Oh well, 'tis is life.

As for Gaider's comments on Troika, and TOEE; how 'bout we agree that it is open to interpretation. Rememebr, by his own words, he liked Aracnum and beleive sthat if anyone can get TOEE to accomplish its goals; it's Troika. That sure doens't sound like he hates hem.

Anyways, thabnks for the "compliments"; I guess. Not that I need them.