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Development Info David Gaider on settings culture & history

Sheriff05

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
618
Location
Chicago
Exitium said:
Don't behave like an estrogenated fanboy. I'm not calling you one, merely suggesting that you're behaving like one.

For a guy with a decent vocabulary you're incredibilly dense.
I guess it's my bad, "Offended" was a poor choice of words that obviously mislead you.

I got PISSED OFF because you were blatantly lying about something I knew not to be true, and it was in order to promote your own argument.

It doesn't fucking matter what game it was. (It just happened to be games I liked as I probably wouldn't bothered comment if you lied about say, NWN)

This has nothing to do with me being irrational or hypocritical
It's about you being a swarmy, full of shit, liar for the purposes of promoting your own agenda. You then have the balls to try to vilify people for doing the same damn thing. Like you just did AGAIN to VD in the last post I quoted you on.

You're currently behaving as the ultimate hypocrite and your are the last motherfucker on the planet to be talking to anyone about integrity.

Keep digging you're almost to China.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
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Pax Romana
Jora said:
And in D&D games developers can't do anything they want to the world. Briosafreak said that it would have been possible to completely destroy the world in Van Buren. You could do that in Arcanum. WotC doesn't allow that or anything that has a major effect on Faerun/Eberron/Greyhawk. It wouldn't make sense to place your epic role-playing game in a world like those.

Great point. That's one of the main reasons for the limitations seen in Bioware's D&D titles. Even Throne of Bhaal had to follow RA Salvatore/D&D canon. Amn couldn't be destroyed, no matter what, and Baldur's Gate has to be ravaged by bhaalspawn, according to the way the story in D&D 3E is supposed to go.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
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Pax Romana
Sheriff05 said:
For a guy with a decent vocabulary you're incredibilly dense.
I guess it's my bad, "Offended" was a poor choice of words that obviously mislead you.

I got PISSED OFF because you were blatantly lying about something I knew not to be true, and it was in order to promote your own argument.

It doesn't fucking matter what game it was. (It just happened to be games I liked as I probably wouldn't bothered comment if you lied about say, NWN)

This has nothing to do with me being irrational or hypocritical
It's about you being a swarmy, full of shit, liar for the purposes of promoting your own agenda. You then have the balls to try to vilify people for doing the same damn thing. Like you just did AGAIN to VD in the last post I quoted you on.

You're currently behaving as the ultimate hypocrite and your are the last motherfucker on the planet to be talking to anyone about integrity.

Keep digging you're almost to China.
Did you miss everything else I wrote? By the way, I think you've broken the recommended quota for number of expletives in a single post.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,706
Location
Lisboa, Portugal
Exitium said:
Jora said:
And in D&D games developers can't do anything they want to the world. Briosafreak said that it would have been possible to completely destroy the world in Van Buren. You could do that in Arcanum. WotC doesn't allow that or anything that has a major effect on Faerun/Eberron/Greyhawk. It wouldn't make sense to place your epic role-playing game in a world like those.

Great point. That's one of the main reasons for the limitations seen in Bioware's D&D titles. Even Throne of Bhaal had to follow RA Salvatore/D&D canon. Amn couldn't be destroyed, no matter what, and Baldur's Gate has to be ravaged by bhaalspawn, according to the way the story in D&D 3E is supposed to go.

So, does this mean Saradush and Ust Natha weren't unimportant cities? I remember seeing the first being destroyed, and m being able to kill almost all inhabitants of the second.
 

Sheriff05

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
618
Location
Chicago
Volourn said:
"FWIW taking quotes "Out of context" is not slander and journalists do it everyday in all forms of media."

It's still pathetic to do, moron.


I am just pointing out that taking peoples quotes "out of context" is NOT Slander as Exitium has been crowing. I never said it's not wrong.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
24,986
Nah. Ex, VD, and others are onc rack. Lots of things occured in BIO's D&D games that never happened in WOTC's version. To say they were limited in that way is just plain silly. It's just plain ludicrous on so many levels; it's not even funny.

"I am just pointing out that taking peoples quotes "out of context" is NOT Slander as Exitium has been crowing. I never said it's not wrong."

I am just pointing out that you are a moron. I never said what you wrote was wrong. Don't be so defensive about the wrong things.
 

Sheriff05

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
618
Location
Chicago
Exitium said:
Did you miss everything else I wrote? By the way, I think you've broken the recommended quota for number of expletives in a single post.

yes, I read all your talking points that skirt the actual issue and I don't feel as if your defaming my character.
You're just not owning up to your own shitty behavior as other are clearly pointing out.
What don't you understand about what I am telling you?.
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Volourn said:
Nah. Ex, VD, and others are onc rack. Lots of things occured in BIO's D&D games that never happened in WOTC's version. To say they were limited in that way is just plain silly. It's just plain ludicrous on so many levels; it's not even funny.

Dave Gaider himself said that one of the reasons they chose to make something original was that they get complete control on what happens in the world. For example, I doubt you could make a FR game that ends with Rashemen conquering Thay and destroying the Red Wizards so that they will never be heard of again.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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"Dave Gaider himself said that of the reasons they chose to make something original was that they get complete control on what happens in the world."

Irrelevant. In BG1, BIO killed off a good number of the Flaming Fist Ruling Council which who are not only the rulers of Baldur's Gate but the most powerful, and most successful Mercenary company in the Realms.

In BG2, they allow you to become a god.

In NWN, they complete made the makeup of the City of Neverwinter AND put in a non existent Realm disease and twsited the time traveling rules.

In the BG series, they had the whole thing about the Bhaalspawn also not Realmslore.

It's not like they weren't able to twist it around.

Sure, what Gaider says is true - that they now have complete freedom; but to say they had none is absolutely ridiculous. All it took was them to get the stuff approved.


"For example, I doubt you could make a FR game that ends with Rashemen conquering Thay and destroying the Red Wizards so that they will never be heard of again."

I bet they could.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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Volourn said:
"For example, I doubt you could make a FR game that ends with Rashemen conquering Thay and destroying the Red Wizards so that they will never be heard of again."

I bet they could.

OMG u just posted BG3 plot spoilers!
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Exitium said:
Fallout
Fallout 2
Stonekeep
Star Trek: Starfleet Academy

Remember Interplay's heyday? These games put Interplay on the map.
Really? That's an interesting and rather unique opinion.

Anyway, Fallout 2 doesn't count, because they didn't do much there, just the storyline, and even that was changed later. Stonekeep and Starfleet Academy were flops (GameSpot scores are 6.6 and 5.6 respectively).
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
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Sold well for flops, though. Starfleet Academy especially.

Doesn't disprove my point that Fallout was a triple A title (especially at the time) and they all worked on it, though. Does it? All I needed was one example, and I got it.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,044
If that's what you were aiming at, you've got it. If you were trying to show that Troika developers made plenty of great titles before Bio did anything, you failed.
 

Jinxed

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
901
Location
Special Encounter
If Pete's being a dumb motherfucker he deserves to be called that way. Pete is extremely lame and the description "full of shit" fits like a glove. My question is, why would anyone want to censor the truth on the codex?

Sheriff05 said:
You wildly exaggerated negative elements of both Silent Storm...

It's too bad I wasn't around at the time, I've played both SS' extensively. And I could argue about the faults Exit posted below, don't want to derail this thread more than I can.

Exitium said:
Basically, Troika fucked up. Leniency is unnecessary. If Arcanum didn't feature dated graphics, atrocious combat and a completely imbalanced character system it would have likely been a major hit. Sierra can't be blamed for Troika's failings in this matter, though Sierra's 2-month delay certainly contributed, in part to the game's lack of sales (mainly due to piracy). Though, it's arguable that pirates would have even bought the game had they not have access to it a few weeks early.

As far as I'm concerned, graphics aren't what RPG's are supposed to be about. Arcanum featured graphics that weren't bad, but weren't stellar either. They did their job just like they were supposed to without the possibilities staring orcs in the eye. A lot more care was put into the actual setting and design of the graphics, not the technical part. The combat and character system thing is closely related, one comes out of the either and I see it as one point. The Arcanum community was pretty big back in the day. These weren't general Troika fans who loved fallout, but new fans who didn't even know who Troika was. You can't back up your claims to the full on this one exit, take it from me I worked for an Arcanum fan site for years and know that the part of the community grew up on Inn boards, some on the gamespy fan site, and some on TA. There were really plenty of people who loved this game despite the shortcomings. And its failure was mostly decided by Sierra's publishing rubbish. Saint Prov even wrote an article about that when he still worked for TA.
You're not going to convince anyone who was or is part of the Arcanum community about the stuff you just sniffed off from your finger exit.
 

Jora

Arcane
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
1,115
Location
Finland
Volourn said:
In BG1, BIO killed off a good number of the Flaming Fist Ruling Council which who are not only the rulers of Baldur's Gate but the most powerful, and most successful Mercenary company in the Realms.

That wasn't enough to destroy the Flaming Fist. IIRC The leader even survived (you could save him by taking him to the harbor master)

In BG2, they allow you to become a god.
Yet nothing specific was revealed about your actions after that and no other god was killed in the process.

In NWN, they complete made the makeup of the City of Neverwinter AND put in a non existent Realm disease and twsited the time traveling rules.

Was the city destroyed or considerably weakend permanently?
And I'm not talking about rules changes.

In the BG series, they had the whole thing about the Bhaalspawn also not Realmslore.
I think they could add almost whatever they wanted but not permanently remove or change something really major.

; but to say they had none is absolutely ridiculous.
And that's not what I'm saying.
 

Sheriff05

Liturgist
Joined
Sep 24, 2003
Messages
618
Location
Chicago
Volourn said:
I am just pointing out that you are a moron. I never said what you wrote was wrong. Don't be so defensive about the wrong things.

Oh? was that it?, my bad. I guess you wouldn't mind then if I take this moment to point out to everyone that you're a Stupid Fucking Cunt

Don't take offense.



exitium said:
I'm not a 'liar' (oh gasp what a horrible word) just because I don't share your views on Kohan and Silent Storm.

Quit dodging the real issues I don't give a flying fuck about your opinion about any game.
I never have. My examples are only to illustrate your behavior. Here you are, once again, now taking my argument Out of Context , Shocking.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
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"OMG u just posted BG3 plot spoilers!"

LOL


"Don't take offense."

Why would I? The truth hurts; not lies. :lol:


"That wasn't enough to destroy the Flaming Fist. IIRC The leader even survived (you could save him by taking him to the harbor master) "

It completely changed the outlook of the city and of the Mercnerary Group. If you knew anything about the Realms; you know it would be a HUGE deal to see the Flaming Fists torn asunder as they were. Not to mention the reputation backlash from them being fooled by one such as Sarevok. This is a HUGE change in the Realmslore espicially in the Sword Coast region. Let's also not forget the iron shortage which if followed through would be felt for years to come.


"Yet nothing specific was revealed about your actions after that and no other god was killed in the process."

Irrelevant. You became a god. That's a big change inofitself. Don't sidestep the issue.


"Was the city destroyed or considerably weakend permanently?"

Not neccessarily. But, it was changed completely. Not to mention, by the end of BG1 even thoguh war was averted the bad blood between BG and Amn is still there. Another vast difference since the Flaming Fist Mercenary company gets along great with Athkatla. Anyone who knows the Realms would know this espicially if they read the Maztica trilogy. Next?


"I think they could add almost whatever they wanted but not permanently remove or change something really major."

They have. the key thing to remmeber, that the stuff that occured in the IE series of games don't effect the pnp FR defacto setting AT ALL.
 

AlanC9

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 12, 2003
Messages
505
The most disruptive Bio campaign, Realms-wise, was the NWN OC. Several important FR characters are killed and the city of Luskan is trashed. It's incompatible with FR continuity, especially since characters like Obould turn up in the novels.

The BG campaign is FR canon, I've heard (edit: not sure of the criteria for canonization, but they did novelize it). The NWN OC isn't. (SoU and HotU don't matter, since the status quo ante is pretty much restored at the end).

This isn't exactly an argument for getting away from FR restrictions. The FR-compliant campaigns were better.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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AlanC9 said:
The BG campaign is FR canon, I've heard (edit: not sure of the criteria for canonization, but they did novelize it).

Did the Bhaalspawn saga actually happened? Did Saradush actually get wasted because of it? No one answers me :(
 

Sol Invictus

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Vault Dweller said:
If that's what you were aiming at, you've got it. If you were trying to show that Troika developers made plenty of great titles before Bio did anything, you failed.

6+ years of game design experience > 2 years of medical software design experience .
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
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"The BG campaign is FR canon"

No it isn't. It surely isn't included in the time line in the FRCS not is what happened in either Amn and Athkatla included in their little bios. Such a huge event as they went through would surely make it in..


"The most disruptive Bio campaign, Realms-wise, was the NWN OC. Several important FR characters are killed and the city of Luskan is trashed."

That is disruptive; but no more disruptive than the BG series was. Afterall, it completely warped what occured to Bhaal during the TOT. Not to mention the absolute devestation of the FF where some of their top leaders died where in actual FR they very much still alive. Let's not forget the long term effects on Athkatla if they had an actual cabal of vampire rogues in the city. Or the effects it had on the Shadow Thieves.. Or the different temples... Or, or, or, you get the picture..
 

Sol Invictus

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Bhaalspawn saga is canon. They even have a crap canonized novel about it after the game was made. Ishmael or something is the protagonist.

Jinxed: Pete wasn't being a dumb motherfucker.

As far as I'm concerned, graphics aren't what RPG's are supposed to be about. Arcanum featured graphics that weren't bad, but weren't stellar either.
They were dated. I'm not saying that graphics are integral to an RPG (they aren't.) but you can't expect a game to get mainstream appeal if it looks older than Fallout. The sprites were awful.

A lot more care was put into the actual setting and design of the graphics, not the technical part. The combat and character system thing is closely related, one comes out of the either and I see it as one point.
Going with a real time/turn-based hybrid was their mistake. It was Sierra's mistake for telling them to add a multiplayer component but it was also Troika's for thinking they could get away with something so shoddy instead of trying something new with a multiplayer implementation of turn based combat (localized combat zones for multiplayer, perhaps?).

The Arcanum community was pretty big back in the day. These weren't general Troika fans who loved fallout, but new fans who didn't even know who Troika was.
Irrelevent. Every games have their communities, even retarded games like Lionheart. When I shut down my Lionheart forum at RPG Planet and linked it to Ausir's site, people would e-mail me and complain about why I didn't host it locally.

You can't back up your claims to the full on this one exit, take it from me I worked for an Arcanum fan site for years and know that the part of the community grew up on Inn boards, some on the gamespy fan site, and some on TA.
Also irrelevent. The community was very small, in comparison to Fallout's, Baldur's Gates. It is comparable to Icewind Dale's tiny community, really. Their support makes very little difference in sales or official support. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't Chrisbeddoes the largest and possibly only remaining contributor to the Arcanum modding community?

There were really plenty of people who loved this game despite the shortcomings.
There are even more who didn't.

And its failure was mostly decided by Sierra's publishing rubbish. Saint Prov even wrote an article about that when he still worked for TA.
Fair enough, but inspite of this, the game would likely still have been a merely 'ok' seller instead of a big hit.

You're not going to convince anyone who was or is part of the Arcanum community about the stuff you just sniffed off from your finger exit.
Nice insult. Try making a relevent point sometime in the next decade, Jinxed.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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"They even have a crap canonized novel about it after the game was made. Ishmael or something is the protagonist."

No. The novel was just a way to capitalize on the game's ccuess. Outside of that, nothing in the Realmslore even hints at its canonization. Unless I completely misread the FRCS... the half dozen times minimum that I read of it...
 

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