Development Info David Gaider on settings culture & history

[Diogo Ribeiro]

They were dated. I'm not saying that graphics are integral to an RPG (they aren't.) but you can't expect a game to get mainstream appeal if it looks older than Fallout. The sprites were awful.

I don't know if Arcanum's graphics were inferior to those of Fallout. Fallout ran at an inferior color depth (16 bit), Arcanum, IIRC, at a superior one (32 bit). Fallout's graphics were somewhat fuzzy, while those of Arcanum were a lot more vibrant on many levels (special effects, such as explosions, and fire and light sources, really are much more detailed in Arcanum).

 

[Greenskin13]

Actually, I'm just here for the free food.

Oh snap, page nine already? I can't keep up with this pace.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Fallout had better art direction inspite of its limited color pallette. Arcanum's sprites looked like clipart pasted on a 2d image.

 

[AlanC9]

Whether FR novels are automatically canon or not is... debatable. There have been contradictory statements. Hell, it's not even certain that Dragon articles are canon.

But this means that I can't really prove that the BG novels are canon. Your point, Volo.

But it's possible to resolve the BG saga in a way that doesn't wreck too much of the Realmslore. Saradush is an unimportant place, and a DM can work around the other changes. Whereas incorporating NWN means you have to completely redraw the politics of Luskan, and replace Obould with somebody else, and say goodbye to Klauth

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Re: Actually, I'm just here for the free food.

Oh snap, page nine already? I can't keep up with this pace.

Just post something once in a while. They'll think you care or are at the very least, participating.

Fallout had better art direction inspite of its limited color pallette. Arcanum's sprites looked like clipart pasted on a 2d image.

I found the character sprites in Arcanum to generally have poor animation, but they didn't looked more outdated than Fallout. I daresay they were more or less even, although while Fallout seemed to have more well defined animations, Arcanum had a cleaner look to them. Out of the blue, I can't remember being able to see actual pixels in Arcanum sprites, although I can remember them in Fallout.

 

[Sol Invictus]

My issue with Arcanum's sprites is that they looked fresh out of 3dsmax with some cheap smooth textures pasted onto them. No touching up whatsoever.

 

[Greenskin13]

Hound dog barkin' upside the pier.

Just post something once in a while. They'll think you care or are at the very least, participating.

That would totally defeat my purpose on the Codex. I'm just here to mediate on grammar issues and offer one-line opinions.

 

[Jinxed]

Fallout had better art direction inspite of its limited color pallette. Arcanum's sprites looked like clipart pasted on a 2d image.

You could have a valid point there if you would be talking about the enlarged sprites. It's no mystary that the big creatures looked like crap, but I don't see anything wrong with the ones which weren't tampered with.

Exit, I'm not saying Arcanum was perfect, and yes, that insult at the end of my post was uncalled for, but I cannot be blind the the shift in your opinion and it pissed me off. I have never seen you bad mouth arcanum, I cannot say much about your opinion on ToEE, but the fact that you ran (still run?) a modding site for it kinda speaks for itself. I don't really know what's with you, it's almost as if you had a sudden revelation and now you are on a quest to show us just how much Arcanum was flawed, that ToEE sucked and overall Troika is a failure.

You are right about the modding community, but Arcanum is not a new game by any standard. But look at Fallout, what have they come up with? In fact, the modding community has achieved more than the one Fallout has. Part of the reason for that was the lack of Fallout modding tools for years... But still, plenty playable mods have been released, including one BIGGY that featured a lot of the Arcanum community names myself included.

My opinion on Troika games to date will never change. I replayed Arcanum god only knows how many times and still replay ToEE once every few months. I have my issues with both games but in light of the genius that's present (arcanum setting and ToEE gameplay) these games are gems in my book.

And about your claims that Arcanum had a small community... I don't know how you can back that up. I just don't remember you being around when it was rockin'.

I am eagerly awaiting Bloodlines. I want a to see a Troika games which is finally good in all pieces that matter.

 

[Volourn]

"Whereas incorporating NWN means you have to completely redraw the politics of Luskan, and replace Obould with somebody else, and say goodbye to Klauth"

Um.. Going by the Bg series, you'd have to redraw BG-Athkatloa polictics a lot.

Major characters including some of the big wigs in the FF also died in the BG series. Not to mention the fact that Athkatla itself was changed a lot compared to its pnp version as was BG. Orc kings like Obould are a dime a doaen and you can always find a ana cinet wyrm like Klauth soemwhere. I mean, Klauth wasn't talked about much AT ALL until 3E anyways.

Have you seen the FRCS? If you had you'd know that the BG series isn't canon. Not by a long shot. They have sections dedicated to BG, Amn/Athkatla and none of it hints at any of the major events that took place. Nore does the history time line of the Realms - which is extensive going back hundreds of years - doesn't mention any of it. Not the iron shortage, not the Bhaalspawn Saga which as you recall by the time TOB ended was MAJOR news everywhere, not the FF drama.

Oh did anyone realize that there was supposed to be a silver dragon ghost under Candlekeep? Hahaha...

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Oh did anyone realize that there was supposed to be a silver dragon ghost under Candlekeep? Hahaha...

Somewhere, an Atari 'think-tank' is going through your posts on this thread and gathering 'ideas' for BG3.

 

[Volourn]

And, of course, they won't pay me. Jerks.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Would it not be possible to use the front page to post factual news, and then use the thread to voice your opinions?

No, because that would be boring.

And what, exactly, is wrong with the commentary in the news item? I don't see anything wrong with it. It's no where close to bashing BioWare, it's a straight forward question about the mechanics and use of dialogue in their games. Often times in BioWare games, no matter what you pick, nothing changes. Even in KotOR, which was heralded as having a choice, the major and minor dialogues both worked this way. They'd give you an option to pick a side or an opinion, but nothing really happens differently. In fact, in the example Gaider gave, and judging from previous BioWare games, I would assume that the reply to both #2 and #3 would end up resulting in the same reply. It would end up being something along the lines of, "Well, it's good to hear the opinion of someone such as you, but this war has taken on a life of it's own and it's inevitable at this point." or something like that.

In cases such as these, depending on the status of the player at the time, it would probably be better to give the player the option of taking a side and telling the speaker what that means to him. If you want the holy war, you're willing to help it out. If you don't want it, you'd be willing to put a stop to those who do want it, or if you just don't care either way. Give a dialogue choice that might actually mean something so the player has some involvement in the situation and just isn't a sounding board for the NPC.

 

[Avin]

Oh did anyone realize that there was supposed to be a silver dragon ghost under Candlekeep? Hahaha...

yup. i knew, well, i read the book AFTER playing BG (as i presume you did too).

interesting that candlekeep, iirc, entrance in FRCS is bigger than the baldur's gate one.

 

[Volourn]

"And what, exactly, is wrong with the commentary in the news item?"

What's wrong is that he took what Gaider posted there comnpletely out of context, and he knows it. That's what's wrong with it. The exmaple Gaider posted had nothing to do with choices that effect the game; but how BIO would gave info about the DA world to the player without makng the character look stupid. If youa re actually worried about how dialogue in DA will effect the game world than go to the BIO boards and post your question. Stop taking what he wrote of context just so you can bash other BIO games whicha re or at least were totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


"They'd give you an option to pick a side or an opinion, but nothing really happens differently."

Bull. Most of the quests had mutliple ways to solve themn. Just remmeber the 'Romeo & Juliet' type scenario or the 'trial'. Both, of which, were on the same planet. Le't snot forget the lovesick robot there as well. Do you and VD actually play BIO games or do you just pretend you do?

" i knew, well, i read the book AFTER playing BG (as i presume you did too)."

I've been a D&D hawk for years even before BG yet I still didn't know that when i played the game. For some reason I totally missed it. Actually, I just noticed it 2 seconds ago, lol, when confirm the canon-non canon stuff. :twisted:

 

[Sol Invictus]

He probably pretends. I know someone who pretended to have played Lionheart and say bad things about it for 2 weeks before he even got the game because of what I was telling him about it.

 

[Avin]

" I just noticed it 2 seconds ago, lol, when confirm the canon-non canon stuff"

weakling :p

 

[Vault Dweller]

What's wrong is that he took what Gaider posted there comnpletely out of context, and he knows it. That's what's wrong with it. The exmaple Gaider posted had nothing to do with choices that effect the game; but how BIO would gave info about the DA world to the player

Volly, Volly, my not overly bright friend... Your problem is that you take things literally, you can't take a principle used in one example, apply it to other cases, and see if it fits. And it does fit, btw. Blows your mind, doesn't it?

Bull. Most of the quests had mutliple ways to solve themn. Just remmeber the 'Romeo & Juliet' type scenario or the 'trial'. Both, of which, were on the same planet. Le't snot forget the lovesick robot there as well. Do you and VD actually play BIO games or do you just pretend you do?

First of all, we were talking about dialogues, not quests, and not multiple solutions to quests. I know that in your zeal to prove your point you feel that the details and actual positions are irrelevant, and there are many who'd agree with you, but I don't. As for your examples, since we are speaking about DIALOGUES, I can give you 10 for every one you state. Here is a big one though, so you wouldn't cry and tell I didn't give you any: when you take your Jedi test, does it matter what answer you give? I thought it should with the game being focused on Jedi and all, but sadly it doesn't.

 

[Volourn]

"Your problem is that you take things literally, you can't take a principle used in one example, apply it to other cases, and see if it fits."

Your problem is that you take things out of context to twist it to prove some lame point.


"First of all, we were talking about dialogues"

So was I. The R&J, The Trial, and even the robot to a lesser extent are all dialogue focused quests wher eit's the dialogue choices made that determines the outcome. Nice try though.


"I can give you 10 for every one you state."

Doubtful unless youa re coutning every single dialogue in the game including unimportant npcs. If so, I could do the same with the FOs.


"when you take your Jedi test, does it matter what answer you give? I thought it should with the game being focused on Jedi and all, but sadly it doesn't."

True. It was an obvious design decision though to let the player have ultimate decision. That said, the Jedi Masters *did* tell you that the test was to determine where your skills were best used; but the ultimate decision as yours. It fit perfect for the story.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"Your problem is that you take things literally, you can't take a principle used in one example, apply it to other cases, and see if it fits."

Your problem is that you take things out of context to twist it to prove some lame point.

Well then, we both have problems, that's something that's hard to argue with

"First of all, we were talking about dialogues"

So was I. The R&J, The Trial, and even the robot to a lesser extent are all dialogue focused quests wher eit's the dialogue choices made that determines the outcome. Nice try though.

Out of all DIALOGUES in the game, what percentage these few that you named and a few others that you didn't represent? It's not a try, btw, David was talking about dialogues, not quests; I was talking about dialogues, not quests, and you, well, you were as usual arguing about something. This time you missed though. So, do you admit that you have misunderstood me?

"I can give you 10 for every one you state."

Doubtful unless youa re coutning every single dialogue in the game including unimportant npcs. If so, I could do the same with the FOs.

See above. If you want to do the same with Fallout, be my guest.

True. It was an obvious design decision though to let the player have ultimate decision. That said, the Jedi Masters *did* tell you that the test was to determine where your skills were best used; but the ultimate decision as yours. It fit perfect for the story.

Does it? I thought that you were disappointed when you were "being all careful to answer the questions so I can be a Sentinel" Here is the link http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2664. The last post from Saint is kinda interesting:

No, KotOR does the bit about the character's choices of dialogue leading to one response all through KotOR, many times. It's pretty annoying.

 

[RGE]

Btw, we've had several disagreements, have I ever insulted you just because your opinion is different? Just curious.

I think you may have insulted me indirectly by claiming that people who had a certain opinion were morons, and I happened to have that opinion. But I'm not going to go look just so I can be sure.

I stated something that I believe to be true. Somebody else, even if it's Gaider himself disagreed. Once again, so what? In cases like that, there is no truth, only opinions.

When there is no truth I think that it's better to state one's opinion as an opinion and not as a fact. Or state one's observation as just that, an observation. Hence "David seems to look at dialogues as blah blah" instead of just "David looks at dialogues as blah blah". I suppose it could be viewed as courtesy to not put oneself above a person when it comes to interpreting the thoughts of that person. Personally I view it as accuracy to not assume more about a person than what they are willing to stand for or what can be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

But for the record, I think it was completely valid to take his post out of context and point out that it's for story-telling reasons that BioWare's games appear to be less interactive than we would like. But since it was out of context, that's yet another reason for not assuming so much about Gaider's thoughts on dialogue options that represent actual choices.

Not that it's a big issue. I just pointed it out because I think such accuracy is more truthful than opinions presented as facts.

Well, I prefer a discussion, and without the antagonism.

Webster sez that antagonism is "actively expressed opposition". Is there anything wrong with that?

Well, that's the mildest definition. I was referring to "Hostility that results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness." But I suppose I could just replace it with "hostility and insults". Not that it's an issue right now.

 

[kosie99]

This thread is better than any RPG I ever played. Dramatic dialogue, interesting characters - some are real dicks and I cannot wait to put my sword to them, and the best of all - it is truly turn-based!

I hope it has multiple endings...

 

[Mendoza]

Would it not be possible to use the front page to post factual news, and then use the thread to voice your opinions?

No, because that would be boring.

And what, exactly, is wrong with the commentary in the news item?

Fine. It was only a suggestion anyway, and not something anyone seems to agree with. I wasn't talking about the content of the commentary itself, and if I do disagree with it, I can decide that for myself. Though if it helps provoke discussion about the topic, then I guess it can't be all that bad.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

What's wrong is that he took what Gaider posted there comnpletely out of context, and he knows it. That's what's wrong with it.

[Mr. Garrison]Okay, how about someone that isn't a complete dumbass?[/Mr. Garrison]

 

[Volourn]

"Well then, we both have problems, that's something that's hard to argue with"

Hey, something we agree on in this thread! :shock:


"So, do you admit that you have misunderstood me?"

No, you were discussing dialogue. My examples were exact that.


"If you want to do the same with Fallout, be my guest."

No, I'm not anal. Just like I don't epxect you to go through BG or KOTOR to prove your point and if you did you'd be lame.


"I thought that you were disappointed when you were "being all careful to answer the questions so I can be a Sentinel"

I was, and still am dissapointed in that. That still doesn't mean I don't understand why they did what they did. It's the same thing with a certain 'final boss" in FO1. Next.


"No, KotOR does the bit about the character's choices of dialogue leading to one response all through KotOR, many times. It's pretty annoying."

Ooo.. Saint said it so it must be true. Seriosuly, it does do thatf rom time to time but not as much as implied and certainly no worse than most non BIO games. That's the only point I was making. I *never* said that BIo games were the equal of FO role-playing wise either. That, however, doesn't mean they don't have it.


"Okay, how about someone that isn't a complete dumbass?"

In other words, anyone who says what you don't want to hear is a dumbass? Sorry, but no matter how much you whine about BIO, the bottom line is that VD took what Gaider said out of context. Deal with it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"So, do you admit that you have misunderstood me?"

No, you were discussing dialogue. My examples were exact that.

What happened to:

unless youa re coutning every single dialogue in the game including unimportant npcs

Yes, I'm counting every dialogue where you have several options to say something. Have I ever indicated otherwise? Remember, when developing your own character, if you invest into reading skills, you must invest into some comprehension skills as well. They kinda work together.

"I thought that you were disappointed when you were "being all careful to answer the questions so I can be a Sentinel"

I was, and still am dissapointed in that. That still doesn't mean I don't understand why they did what they did. It's the same thing with a certain 'final boss" in FO1. Next.

Volourn? Volly? The bastard is digging his way out again. Why they did what? They could have easily pointed out that your answers suggest that a profession of [whatever] is more suitable, then letting you pick whatever you want and maybe even explain your choice. Not to mention that there is a quest (the dark jedi in the grove), and if you follow the guardian answers and attack her when she stops the fight, you will earn yourself some dark points and a negative reaction, although nobody said a word when you stated your intentions to deal with dark jedi in such a manner.

"No, KotOR does the bit about the character's choices of dialogue leading to one response all through KotOR, many times. It's pretty annoying."

Ooo.. Saint said it so it must be true.

I used this quote as an independant opinion expressed a long time ago, so that nobody would think that he's talking sides now.

Seriosuly, it does do thatf rom time to time but not as much as implied and certainly no worse than most non BIO games.

Some more digging. What are those non Bio games you speak of? Troika? Bethesda? Can you be more specific?

In other words, anyone who says what you don't want to hear is a dumbass? Sorry, but no matter how much you whine about BIO, the bottom line is that VD took what Gaider said out of context. Deal with it.

Definitely a woman.