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Warhammer Dawn of War 3 - DAMNATIO MEMORIAE

Unwanted

Endlösung

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Its more about the feel and perception though. Titan size looks like the usual oversized miniboss cliche. I feel like the Dreads hit a sweet spot of size and volume as compared to the spehs muhrines to be impressive on the battle field. Maybe 10, 20 percent more could be even kewler. But when a gigantic Titan appears, on a screen where 10 squads of marines are, it just feels silly.
I guess that the video is just for 'hype' and you wont get Titans for usual missions and maybe drive it like thrice the whole game. Hopefully. Though really I dont care, since no KAYOS.
 

Atomkilla

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Angelos' animation and model remind me too much of Arthas' model in WC3. That's...weird. And not very good.
 

Maculo

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Thanks for the stream Infinitron.

Good and bad parts to that stream. In terms of good (or what I liked) is that Space Marines should field the fewest units, but should be like shock troopers that can explode onto a scene. From a fluff perspective, it bothered me how the Space Marines functioned like a massive in DoW1.

The bad in my opinion is the cover system. The current cover system sounds like a step down from DoW1. Specifically, there will be forcefield domes for either army to use. The force field domes have limited energy and can be wrecked by Assault Marines (or any teleport/jetpack unit). I would prefer a return of DoW II's cover system. It could be frustrating, but I think incentivized the need for flanking, as opposed to just death ball tactics. At the very least, I would like to see a return of the DoW1 cover system.
 

Atomkilla

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It reminds me of last levels of vanilla DoW, where you basically lead a small indestructible army of popamole.

Not sure what to think about this. It doesn't look like what I was hoping for.
 

Darth Roxor

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I wonder if the places reachable only by TP/jump packs will make it into MP because that's pretty interesting.

The rest, though...

i'll wait for more details
 

Aothan

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the early footage of Dawn of War II also looked very different to how the game was developed for release, and actually the footage from II looks somewhat similar to what has been released for III, only so many inferences to make about overall multiplayer gameplay. I'm not sure how the titan units will be used without deciding the game but possibly at a guess they will be weaker at the start and susceptible to multiple attacks (i.e. greater number of units being produced then II)
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/20...mechanics-of-warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-iii/

Colour & Chaos: Exploring The Art And Mechanics Of Warhammer 40,000 Dawn Of War III
Adam Smith on June 28th, 2016 at 7:00 pm.

dowheader.jpg


I’ve never seen anything quite as Warhammer 40k as the fire that rains from the sky when Relic’s representative calls in orbital bombardment on an Eldar army. It’s like the finger of an extremely angry god, a column of flame that can be dragged around the planet surface, disintegrating any unit that it touches. Eldar become brittle silhouettes, elevated by the white heat for a moment as if undergoing a warped Ascension, and then they crumble to ash. This is Dawn of War III [official site] and it’s hideous, awesome and garish.

Despite the planet-shattering power of that weapon, I’m most taken aback by how colourful the whole scene is. This is a Blood Raven assault on a planet of ice and fire, and it’s extremely violent, with assault squads taking flight and screaming across the map to tear their enemies apart, and a fourteen foot tall Imperial Knight combat walker crushing everything in its path, or indeed its line of sight. It’s not grimdark though, and that’s not only because of the bright colours. There are heroes here, in the form of Gabriel Angelos, who fights alone against overwhelming numbers before backup arrives, and in the pilot of that Imperial Knight, Lady Solaria.

Rather than keeping the focus of Dawn of War III on these heroic units though, Relic are attempting to bring together the best parts of both of the game’s predecessors. Base-building, dropped in II, is back, but leaders with overpowering abilities are a major part of the game as well.

16dawnofwar3b.jpg


The second game emphasised the importance of cover and the new/old way of dealing with that is the one mechanic I’ve seen that I’ve yet to be convinced about. Cover is no longer directional, as in the second game, so instead of hiding behind walls or other environmental objects, squads can be placed within protective bubbles. That protects them from attacks coming from any side, but can be destroyed and does not provide any security against melee units that might infiltrate. Hence the importance of assault marines that can zip across the map – and most obstacles – using their jump packs.

It’s a simplification, providing a protective umbrella rather than actual lines of cover, and it might be that it improves the flow of territorial gain and entrenchment, placing a greater focus on the composition of forces rather than the specifics of the terrain. That’s not to say terrain won’t matter: in the mission I saw,much was made of bottlenecks around strategic points, as well as the use of unit-specific abilities to traverse otherwise impassable areas. The changes to cover reduce positional micromanagement and that appears to be a way to allow the player’s attention to be focused on the correct use of units and their skills.

When the demonstration begins, Angelos is alone and Dawn of War III resembles an ARPG. He’s massive, this Blood Raven, towering over Eldar troops. One of the most remarkable things about Dawn of War III is how accurately the units resemble their physical counterparts. I saw a Fire Prism tank at one point and could almost see the chipped paint on a model I owned decades ago. I hadn’t thought of it for years and suddenly I could see it vividly, purple and silver, with a Ziggy Stardust motif running along the curve of its turret.

Eldar should be glam.

And in Dawn of War III they are. Or if not fully glam, they’re at least colourful enough to pop out of the scenery. Then again, so are the marines. This is almost like Warhammer as a Saturday morning cartoon and it looks wonderful in motion. When I spoke to game director Philippe Boulle, I was keen to learn more about the importance of making a battlefield so packed with action – and screens filled with units of such varying scales – legible at all times.

dow1.jpg


“Internally, we create levels of spectacle and visual intensity. We consciously decide what level something is supposed to be. So something like passive bolter fire you should notice in a small engagement but it shouldn’t drown out everything else and it can fade into the background in a larger confrontation where it’s less important. The lascannons generate a lot of damage, particularly when they stay focused, so they’re a lot brighter onscreen, and build in intensity.

“Grenades are a good example of how we’ve changed our visual design over the years. You’ve been able to throw grenades since the dawn of Dawn of War. Generally you throw a grenade with one guy. Maybe there’s some smoke and maybe there’s a countdown then a big explosion. We spent a lot of time making the tell of the grenades a lot clearer.

“The more important something is for gameplay, the more attention-setting it needs to be. The orbital bombardment is the most attention-grabbing thing on-screen, visually and in terms of gameplay. It’s appropriate that it drowns out everything else. The chaos of battle is part of these big RTS games. At first glance it looks like there’s all kinds of stuff happening but because it’s introduced over the course of the game, you have plenty of time to learn the animation tells and visuals of different attacks and elements of the maps.”

My interest in all of that colour and light goes deeper though. My knowledge of 40k lore isn’t particularly strong; everytime I need to educate myself about a particular part of the universe, I end up trapped in the Lexicanum, clicking on the random page selector. I did it just now and ended up reading about the Months of Shame. Lovely stuff.

But I want to know about Relic’s relationship with the setting and with Games Workshop. What kind of stories can they tell and what kind of stories do they want to tell, within their games about war set in a world of war?

dow2.jpg


“The fundamental relationship with Games Workshop hasn’t changed, they’ve been great partners over the years and we’ve built a level of trust with them,” Boulle explains. “It’s important not to be overly precious about the setting. One of the great services Games Workshop provide is that they are stewards of their IP and if something doesn’t quite work, they’ll gently remind us and find a solution.

“That said, getting the grimdarkness of the world is so important,” says Boulle. “I came to Relic to work on Dawn of War games. I will say that at times the IP is so rich that it can come across as a barrier to play. The wall of lore, I call it. You have to read tomes and tomes in order to understand what’s going on.

“To avoid that, we identify the things that we fell in love with to begin with. Twenty five years ago I fell in love with an image in White Dwarf of a Space Marine, without knowing the story behind it. I didn’t know what a Space Marine was, or how it worked, or what the world it existed in was like.

“The elite heroes allow us to encapsulate the cool aspirational aspects that stand out against the backdrop of eternal war. There are also cool things to do narratively – if you’re fighting the same wars from one generation to the next, how do you be a hero?”

By using a gatling gun or a barrage of missiles, judging by what I see during the battle against the Eldar. One thing that stands out is that special attack used by hero units do seem to allow some fine control. Whether you’re using a teleport-dash to relocate on the battlefield or directing the individual missiles in a cluster toward targets, a couple of seconds of close attention might improve your odds of dealing a lethal blow to your targets.

Even the marines reinforcements, arriving in drop pods as they always have, can benefit from your attention. Rather than simply scattering them around the field, you can utilise them as weapons, crushing enemies with the pod as they THWOMP onto the planet’s surface.

dow3.jpg


I’m curious as to whether changes to the actual ruleset of 40k over time have any influence on the design of a new Dawn of War game, particularly given the importance of specific skills and the apocalyptic weaponry on display.

“There are points of inspiration taken from rulesets. They’re very different games because there’s almost no randomness under the hood in Dawn of War, whereas 40k tabletop does have dice involved. But whenever there are new abilities introduced, that becomes part of the pool of inspiration. Some of what’s fun about translating the tabletop into the digital space.”

The visual ‘pop’ that caught my eye from the first seconds of the demonstration calls back to the tabletop game as well, Boulle reckons: “Colourful armour against a dark world has always been part of 40k. It goes back to the themes we were talking about earlier, heroes standing against the dark setting.

“We looked at how to make units recognisable on the field of battle. Dawn of War II had lots of scratches on armour and the up close feeling. Scaled out with larger enemies we have to make sure that every unit pops out. So we think about how the best model painters treat their models – you can’t translate directly because light works differently in a digital space, but is’ a helpful starting point. All art decisions are based on legibility as well as emotional and thematic weight.”

With its three factions – Orks and Eldar join the Marines – offering a “triangle of contrasts, both in terms of narrative and mechanics”, Dawn of War III should have plenty of variety in its armies. Three factions might not seem like a big haul but every unit in the demonstration has at least one very specific application. What the game needs is a campaign that’s equal to that variety. We’ll hopefully learn more about that soon but, for now, I’m pleased to see that Relic really do look to be taking the best of both of their previous dawns.

Dawn of War III will be out next year.
 

Mangoose

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Eh... I dunno. Well, disclaimer, I'm biased in that I like RTT more than RTS. TBS is a different story. I just am not good at/not interested in real-time macro-micromanagement (if that makes any sense...). So let's just get it out of the way that I am sad that base building is back. Completely subjective. Not sure why I'm mentioning it, as I have no problems with anyone that likes it.

However, some things that caught my eye:

Cover is no longer directional, as in the second game, so instead of hiding behind walls or other environmental objects, squads can be placed within protective bubbles.
Huh? My only assumption is that this is due to the game's return to more of a multitasking strategic game. And thus simplifying mechanics eases multitasking. I guess.

However...
a way to allow the player’s attention to be focused on the correct use of units and their skills.
Suggests you still have hotkey-button-skills to press, prime example being the hero units of DoW2. Why keep this but simplify cover?

Though in general
“The more important something is for gameplay, the more attention-setting it needs to be. The orbital bombardment is the most attention-grabbing thing on-screen, visually and in terms of gameplay. It’s appropriate that it drowns out everything else. The chaos of battle is part of these big RTS games. At first glance it looks like there’s all kinds of stuff happening but because it’s introduced over the course of the game, you have plenty of time to learn the animation tells and visuals of different attacks and elements of the maps.”
This is such a fucking 40k -fluffy- fanboy article. OH GOD VISUAL THINGS. ORBITAL BOMBARDMENST. CHAOS OF BATTLE!!!

I’m curious as to whether changes to the actual ruleset of 40k over time have any influence on the design of a new Dawn of War game
Did this guy ever play 40k or the other Dawn of War games? Because the rulesets never ever carried over. DoW1 + expansions + DoW2 were 40k games with Relic's personally designed rulesets. I haven't played Company of Heroes, but isn't DoW2 the 40k version of CoH?

Colourful armour against a dark world has always been part of 40k. It goes back to the themes we were talking about earlier, heroes standing against the dark setting.
.........................................

Well, it is true that Orks are colorful and place a huge amount of emphasis on color, to the point where painting something red actually makes it go faster.
 

Maculo

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Relic is taking its time to release the Q/A video. I really want to know if specialist units (Librarian, Apothecary, etc) are in.

Regarding the video, I still hate the cover system and Angelos' jump. The video did confirm that requisition resources are back and gathered from capture points. I did not see anything about generators though.
 
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Can't say I'm impressed by the new art style. DoW 1 was perfect in how it combined a colorful comic style with the setting's bleak atmosphere and more macabre elements (flying skulls, half-machine half-man servitor slaves).
Oh well.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Relic is taking its time to release the Q/A video. I really want to know if specialist units (Librarian, Apothecary, etc) are in.

Regarding the video, I still hat the cover system and Angelos' jump. The video did confirm that requisition resources are back and gathered from capture points. I did not see anything about generators though.
Indeed, but the cover system of DoW2 didn't let assault unit storm a building, which was a problem.
 

Maculo

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Relic is taking its time to release the Q/A video. I really want to know if specialist units (Librarian, Apothecary, etc) are in.

Regarding the video, I still hat the cover system and Angelos' jump. The video did confirm that requisition resources are back and gathered from capture points. I did not see anything about generators though.
Indeed, but the cover system of DoW2 didn't let assault unit storm a building, which was a problem.
DoW2 was far from perfect, but I would take it over the current bubble system. If the armies/battles are indeed going to be bigger, I just do not foresee the bubbles being of any use, especially since it takes one assault squad to crash it.
 

BrotherFrank

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The first time I saw the cover bubbles, I honestly thought they were an Eldar specific type of cover and was ok with the pansy elves being too good to use rock and dirt for cover like everyone else. That it's the main cover mechanic just pisses me off, it feels like relic is regressing in the mechanics that made their rts stand apart from its competitors like Starcraft, with the absolute zenith of relic cover system being Coh1 imo, because troops would go prone and use fox holes or hide behind broken pieces of cover and damaging buidings would make openings and holes that defending troops could use as fire ports. At times I was genuinely fooled into believing these troops had some sense of self preservation and valued their own lives even if pathfinding could screw things up sometimes.

Now I just wished they ditched cover all together if this is how they are going to implement it, the bubbles are such an eyesore and feel way too artificial, there's no evaluating the terrain and figuring out how to use the cover to your advantage, made more complicated by a dynamic environment which can destroy or make cover...Why are we dumbing down what made the previous titles stand out?

The multi level aspect of terrain in dow3 doesn't redeem it much, that's what Starcraft 2 does already (for the record I despise sc2, but reason I keep mentioning it is because it's the kind of game I don't want Dawn of War to imitate) and will inevitably invite comparisons between the 2 if there wasn't already from the art style.

Finally boo to synckills being absent. I dunno how others feel about that but I enjoyed it as both something fitting to 40k and adding to the RNG aspect of battles. I like my battles to have an element of chance outside the players control, this to me was one of the fundamental differences between Blizzard rts and Relic rts: in one you could micro every aspect of individual troops, in another you could give directives to a squad but you could never have quite as precise control over them: in Coh troops would use cover in a way that players didn't ask for (and good, because as I said above, it gave the illusion troops cared about their own lives, if they were next to a piece of cover they didnt wait for your orders to use it if they were in a firefight), in Dow troops didn't have a reliable dps, between a chance of missing their ranged fire, doing variable damage and getting stuck in synckill animations... I loved this.

Maybe they are doing this to make Dow3 more esports friendly since rng is looked down in those environments (and screw them, managing luck is a form of skill in itself imo), maybe it's just what people enjoy more, I dunno. I'll of course end up buying this cos im a 40k nerd but whilst im banging dow3 i'll be thinking of dow1 and coh1 the whole time.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Yea it seems dow3 will try itself in esports.
Actually, the main problem of sync kills is that they remove control from the player, which is much more frustrating than having a hit/miss random roll (which was the case in CoH and didn't bring that many complains iirc).
I also hated sync kills animation, even though I didn't go very high on the DoW ladder.
But the main problem with trying to make DoW3 highly competitive is that each race will make it increasingly difficult to balance. And they are supposed to get quite a lot out(probably 3 more).
 

ArchAngel

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Yea it seems dow3 will try itself in esports.
Actually, the main problem of sync kills is that they remove control from the player, which is much more frustrating than having a hit/miss random roll (which was the case in CoH and didn't bring that many complains iirc).
I also hated sync kills animation, even though I didn't go very high on the DoW ladder.
But the main problem with trying to make DoW3 highly competitive is that each race will make it increasingly difficult to balance. And they are supposed to get quite a lot out(probably 3 more).
Balance in Sc2 is even today being tweaked monthly so it is not a problem if they will need to do changes constantly.
 

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