KickStarter Dead State Pre-Release Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Haba]

Dead State released. No-one gives a fuck.

Most frequent subject at steam communities?

The price.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yeah, he wanted to play a CRPG without dialogue and clicking.

Well, a CRPG without a shit ton of dialogue to click through.

Or maybe he didn't want a RPG, since the screens make it look like it could be a strategy title. It's even tagged as "Strategy" now.

 

[bylam]

Short Impressions from about 1/2hr.
- Seems to run more smoothly for me than AoD does.
- UI is functional and easy enough to figure out - though as mentioned earlier it could be clearer when you are able to enter "world map mode". It's similar to Arcanum in that respect but without Virgil to inform you. The world map is great though and reminds me of Fallout.
- Combat is straightforward for anyone familiar with isometric turn-based and the DB meter adds a nice layer of tactical consideration - but it is very binary when fighting zombies (don't use loud weapons).
- Too early to comment much on the writing - there is a "cast overload" in the beginning but you can take the time to get to know them afterwards. Dialogue options which allow you to flesh out your own backstory are a plus.
- Art style - judge yourself from the screenshots. It feels clean and functional, but not the most exciting art in the world. The little touches like graffiti outside the buildings which hint at what is inside are nice.

I'm not a big fan of base building games or strongholds in general (hated that part of NWN2) but if the game balances it well with exploration/encounters, I will be a happy camper.

My first crash was after about 1/2hr, while trading between characters. Which is good because I really need to get back to work anyway.

 

[Roguey]

Because generally it's the laziest implementation possible, arbitrary and purely a game balance thing.

I don't think they are lazy or inelegant. Mechanics either achieve their goals or they don't. If they do and the players enjoy them, they are good. if they don't and/or the players don't enjoy them, they are bad.
...
I think they're fine, but it's just one mechanic. As with any timing-based mechanic, I think it needs to be used in conjunction with other tactical considerations to force the player to think more about what to do.

Clearly there are people who enjoy cooldowns that achieve their goals, ergo they are good.

 

[sea]

Most frequent subject at steam communities?

The price.

I think at this point Steam fans are so used to games going on sale for absolute peanuts, that they toss any "indie" game (no matter what the actual team size and actual budget is) into the same category. If your game is labeled "indie" then it's somehow morally wrong to charge more than $20 for it.

The thing that I don't get is when those people spend their hours and hours of free time complaining on the forums about it rather than... you know, just playing another game. Shrug.

 

[Gord]

Yeah, the price discussions on Steam are getting pretty retarded.

 

[felipepepe]

I don't like the writting... sometimes it goes for a dramatic vibe, where you feel like you're watching Walking Dead... but then the "gamey" dialog crashes right into it, with those obnoxius blunt questions like these:

I read that as:

- Provide backstory
- Report current condition
- Report affection status
- Describe talents
- Request side-quest

And all character's non-plot dialog is like this... seriously, who ask others "What do you think of me?"

Another thing, this game needs fog of war, NOW! You go into the city, you can freely move your camera and see everything... and then you walk somehwere, enemies suddenly materialize from nowhere:

Why do this instead of fog of war? Why challenge what designers have been doing for decade now? Not only this looks stupid, but I have no idea of how far I can see anyway. It seems to be a very short radius, and to balance that, enemies are almost blind (not to mention static).

Exploration and looting feels arbitrary... you go into office, there's 5 desks. Only 3 of then you can interact with. Why? Just make them empty. Combat seems okay, it's literally AoD with guns. Difficulty seems to be similar as well. Only improvement seems to be the sequence order indicator.

Need to play more for a better opinion, but this doesn't seem like my kind of game...

 

[Infinitron]

Uh oh, felipepepe doesn't like it. Estimated time until "Codex Consensus == Dead State sucks" - three days.

 

[felipepepe]

You make me feel mean.

 

[Infinitron]

Is the lack of fog of war an intentional design choice or just something they haven't done/decided to do yet?

 

[DeepOcean]

This is a zombie game, a zombie game where you can see the entire layout of the buildings as soon you enter a map kills any sense of fear and surprise (teleporting zombies are a terrible idea). I hope this isn't a design decision because if it is...

 

[Athelas]

Zombies are scary?

 

[tuluse]

And all character's non-plot dialog is like this... seriously, who ask others "What do you think of me?"

That is actually lampshaded. If you pick it the girl says "what a weird thing to ask."

Another thing, this game needs fog of war, NOW! You go into the city, you can freely move your camera and see everything... and then you walk somehwere, enemies suddenly materialize from nowhere:

Why do this instead of fog of war? Why challenge what designers have been doing for decade now? Not only this looks stupid, but I have no idea of how far I can see anyway. It seems to be a very short radius, and to balance that, enemies are almost blind (not to mention static).

There is a fog of war, it's just not visual represented. The zombies in Llano do not spawn out of no where they place there.

Exploration and looting feels arbitrary... you go into office, there's 5 desks. Only 3 of then you can interact with. Why? Just make them empty. Combat seems okay, it's literally AoD with guns. Difficulty seems to be similar as well. Only improvement seems to be the sequence order indicator.

Eh, a bunch of empty containers is just time wasting. Unless it was tied to a game mechanics like opening a desk makes noise, I don't see the point.

I also found combat a lot easier so far, but mainly because in this game you typically outnumber your opponent instead of the reverse.

 

[Mortmal]

No fog of war but i suppose theres a perception Stat determinating items appearing or not , wich explain "telporting" zombies right ?

 

[Shadowfang]

I am. I don't like either.

Now i get why they say you are a contrarian. What i am saying is that they equally bad, or good depending on your perspective.

I am sorry. I thought you were disagreeing, with my opinion,that cooldowns are as valid as any other temporal way of restricting the number of times you can use a skill.

Cooldowns are like regenerative health on a shooter, it is there to restrict you in some way so you aren't absolutely powerful but as regenerative health, it is something purely for the designer convenience, it accomplish the job of limitating the player but nothing more. It is a way of streamlining things, there are other ways to limit the player that add layers of extra and interesting mechanics over it. Like on DnD you had to be careful where you slept to recover your spells and you had a limited number of spells slots with alot of spells competing for them, forcing you to make another interesting decision. The rest system has a lot of problems but cooldowns aren't signs that the designers really wanted to solve the problems but that they gave up.

DnD approach had some really stupid outcomes. A mage that was too tired to cast lesser magic missiles but was still able to cast a greater magic missiles or empowered lesser magic missiles; A barbarian that can rage only 3 times a day.
At PoE the barbarians will able to sprint through their opponents one time per encounter. Just once, no matter how long the battle takes, you can only use it once. This is hardly any better than the cooldown alternative. Actually the cooldown would make more sense with the wild sprint skill, since after a couple of turns the Barbarian could recuperate his stamina.

About Shadowrun, if instead of cooldowns it used a x/spells per encounter system would it make the game better?
I know that the best alternative for Shadowrun would be if they had implemented the whole original spell system but i am going to leave it out since its not was in discussion.
If your mage could only cast that fireball 3 times per fight would the game be much better than with cooldowns? Would it be better when your mage became useless half way through longer fights, because he ran out of spells?

Cooldowns are not like regen in fps since the x/per day is hardly any different from it. Regen makes the life easier to the player while cooldowns do not.
In Fallout you could chew stimpacks like there was no tomorrow in just one turn. In Underrail you have a cooldown of 6 turns after using a Health Hypo this adds a lot more to the fights, and unlike Fallout, the number of stimpacks you have on your inventory are not decisive to define the result of that encounter.

 

[Dokkalfar]

Zombies are scary?

In 28 Days Later they were, if you consider them "zombies"

 

[tuluse]

In Fallout you could chew stimpacks like there was no tomorrow in just one turn.

This was essentially an exploit, since they clearly intended using items to cost AP.

 

[Shadowfang]

In Fallout you could chew stimpacks like there was no tomorrow in just one turn.

This was essentially an exploit, since they clearly intended using items to cost AP.

Yes you are right, but the underrail/fallout comparation still stands because you could heal yourself each turn, and the amount of stimpacks you had could determine the outcome of the fight.

 

[Niektory]

In Fallout you could chew stimpacks like there was no tomorrow in just one turn.

This was essentially an exploit, since they clearly intended using items to cost AP.

Yes you are right, but the underrail/fallout comparation still stands because you could heal yourself each turn, and the amount of stimpacks you had could determine the outcome of the fight.

You say it like it's a bad thing. Having more resources should give you an advantage. And if you have to heal each turn, spending AP, you'll have less AP to fight, placing you in a difficult situation anyway.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Quote from a Steam review...

, but is as good as in similar games such as JA2 or XCom

Gonna guess that's smoke being blown up my ass, but what say you guys?

 

[Shadowfang]

In Fallout you could chew stimpacks like there was no tomorrow in just one turn.

This was essentially an exploit, since they clearly intended using items to cost AP.

Yes you are right, but the underrail/fallout comparation still stands because you could heal yourself each turn, and the amount of stimpacks you had could determine the outcome of the fight.

You say it like it's a bad thing. Having more resources should give you an advantage. And if you have to heal each turn, spending AP, you'll have less AP to fight, placing you in a difficult situation anyway.

Not as much as not being able to heal yourself for another 6 turns. And if the amount of health you get back is higher than the amount of damage you are taking each turn it might well be worth it.
I am not a huge fan of healing during battles. When i played nwn i always thought how ridiculous it was how beneficial was drinking potions in the middle of a fight. It felt lame.
Fights show we won through wit and tactics not by the size of your belly and the amount of flasks you have on your bag.

 

[Infinitron]

Hmmm, just downloaded a small update.

 

[Niektory]

I am not a huge fan of healing during battles.

Then disable healing during battles. It's that simple.
Or make it more risky/costly/weaker/whatever. Making it an actual choice instead of popping moles heals whenever the icon tells you you can.

 

[Shadowfang]

I agree, as i am very fond of no healing during battles.
And i agree with you again when you say that these choices should have draw backs that make you think.
I was not arguing that cooldowns are the best thing ever. I was merely pointing out that they are just as valid as any other arbitrary temporal restriction.
It has its own merits and its faults as do any other approaches of its kind.

 

[Echo Mirage]

So who is on the steam discussions page trying to drum up recruits ?

Hey 96Beryl, please register here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/
Codex is a great place for you. You can continue your fight against Dead State there.