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KickStarter Dead State: Reanimated

mastroego

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"MurderBlonde" (Annie V. Mitsoda) had a fair bit to do with the market failure of this game. The launch of this game makes for an interesting case study on what NOT to do when launching a game.

One should not launch a buggy game. While bugs in games are pretty much accepted the number of them still impacts sales.

That negative impact gets compounded when developers complain loudly and publicly about their own customers and that buggy software is okay to release.

Then compound that negative with silly tweets... and, yeah, you get a PR disaster that strongly impacted sales.

I can forgive a lot of things unless there's arrogance (hint hint: Sawyer) and/or obstinate obtuseness behind them.
If the above is what happened at release, they've had a GREAT chance to learn a FUNDAMENTAL lesson: don't release an unfinished game.
A lesson like that is worth its weight in gold when truly absorbed.

But, the lesson they DO learn is: RPGs don't sell. :negative:
I hope for them that's just PR talk.
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,876
"MurderBlonde" (Annie V. Mitsoda) had a fair bit to do with the market failure of this game. The launch of this game makes for an interesting case study on what NOT to do when launching a game.

One should not launch a buggy game. While bugs in games are pretty much accepted the number of them still impacts sales.

That negative impact gets compounded when developers complain loudly and publicly about their own customers and that buggy software is okay to release.

Then compound that negative with silly tweets... and, yeah, you get a PR disaster that strongly impacted sales.

I can forgive a lot of things unless there's arrogance (hint hint: Sawyer) and/or obstinate obtuseness behind them.
If the above is what happened at release, they've had a GREAT chance to learn a FUNDAMENTAL lesson: don't release an unfinished game.
A lesson like that is worth its weight in gold when truly absorbed.

But, the lesson they DO learn is: RPGs don't sell. :negative:
I hope for them that's just PR talk.

Nah its more like they realized how hard it is to make a decent crpg and deliver it bugfree. Lets face it, crpgs are fucking hard to make. Complex narrative, nonlinear gameplay, choice and consequence, big gameworlds, combat balance. all that can come crushing down on you shortly before release and then you are fucked if you dont have the money to delay your game or have a small staff. Thats also why many aaa developers step back on the complexity of their rpgs, because its easier.
 

Whiran

Magister
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Feb 3, 2014
Messages
641
And what did she tweet, to force you to act as if she steped on you balls?
If you really care you can go back in this thread and read her tweets and her blog posts about it.

And if you don't really care that's cool too 'cause it isn't -that- important. I was just highlighting part of why I feel that the game was a market failure. Insulting / alienating your potential customers doesn't pay off especially in a niche market.
 

NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Started playing with a melee build on Ironman, PC infection, hardcore.
Visiting Brady pharmacy next, can't let that other plane crash victim die.

Some things are a bit buggy, like enemies being able to walk through closed doors or some of the tutorial help texts triggering at the wrong time.
And somehow I became leader without anyone even informing me, just like that. One second I got rescued by these guys, the next I wake up in their shelter and for some reason I'm authorized to decide if rations get reduced...
:hmmm:
So far there's not much interaction in the shelter, on day 3 the initial survivors repeat the same lines as on the first day. But that's soon gonna change I bet.
...
Some questions:
Should I give NPCs the stuff they request (chocolates etc) right now or wait til mood drops? Giving batteries to Renee didn't change her mood (still "okay").
And why the heck are injured chars not handicapped? My main char has 43/70 health after several arrows to the knee and 2 nights of recovery and I didn't even bandage him once. He is still merrily chipping away at zombies and looters like nothing happened. Is it correct that the likelyhood of panicking is the only thing influenced by injuries?

Anyway, it's fun so far, other survivors are the only challenge atm (the zombies that showed up til now are weak sauce even in hardcore) but the game has me hooked and I'm hoping for shit hitting the fan soon.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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So far there's not much interaction in the shelter, on day 3 the initial survivors repeat the same lines as on the first day. But that's soon gonna change I bet.
Yeah, it takes a while to get going, but by the mid game you will have 2 or 3 people coming to you with their problems every day. Be patient.

Should I give NPCs the stuff they request (chocolates etc) right now or wait til mood drops? Giving batteries to Renee didn't change her mood (still "okay").
It usually takes more than one item to advance a mood. As far as I know the benefit is the same whether a person is at low or medium mood; it never seemed like a waste to give stuff out unless the person was already at top of scale ("Happy"). Also since you get xp for giving them out, it's smart to do it early and often.

And why the heck are injured chars not handicapped? My main char has 43/70 health after several arrows to the knee and 2 nights of recovery and I didn't even bandage him once. He is still merrily chipping away at zombies and looters like nothing happened. Is it correct that the likelyhood of panicking is the only thing influenced by injuries?
Eh, welcome to an RPG with a hit point system. Watch out for status effects such as concussion and bleeding though.

Anyway, it's fun so far, other survivors are the only challenge atm (the zombies that showed up til now are weak sauce even in hardcore) but the game has me hooked and I'm hoping for shit hitting the fan soon.
Sad to hear that zombies still aren't scary :( but maybe you're just in the early areas with just a few easily avoided/backstabbed ones.
 

NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Sad to hear that zombies still aren't scary :( but maybe you're just in the early areas with just a few easily avoided/backstabbed ones.
I guess that's more like it. Day 3 with 3 locations cleared, entering the 4.
The main problem with zombies so far is that they don't wander around. They are just standing there waiting to get backstabbed. The AI in this game is nonexistent.
Well, no point in lamenting, scripted events and zombie hordes will do just fine.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Well, look forward to the human AI, they are scary even in the old version. Remember that the zombies aren't supposed to be this big threat that jump out at you - they're supposed to be more like an environmental hazard. Of course, when you want to get into a police station with 30 of em in there ... yeah.
 

tuluse

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I really dont understand those freaks who devote their lifes to spamming metacritic or other rating platforms to downvote a game they dislike. Just write one negative review and be done with it god damnit... Its that sorta self entitlement that something you personally dislike should get bad overall grades which ridicules those platforms and make them infact less reliable. Same goes for the fanboys doing the opposite ofcourse.
I understand going on a crusade against a game. But I often find the choice of targets and venue strange.

Like dead state, it's small indie and already-by the creators' admission-not financially successful.

Now ask me about fallout 3 or civ 5.
 

Mustawd

Guest
I really dont understand those freaks who devote their lifes to spamming metacritic or other rating platforms to downvote a game they dislike. Just write one negative review and be done with it god damnit... Its that sorta self entitlement that something you personally dislike should get bad overall grades which ridicules those platforms and make them infact less reliable. Same goes for the fanboys doing the opposite ofcourse.
I understand going on a crusade against a game. But I often find the choice of targets and venue strange.

Like dead state, it's small indie and already-by the creators' admission-not financially successful.

Now ask me about fallout 3 or civ 5.


A lot of times it seems to be an extremely passionate fan who has a bad taste in his/her mouth. Like they say...hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. Fallout 3 gives you an overall bad feeling. But at the end of the day it's what you expect from a AAA studio. So it's kind of like being pissed off at a wolf for eating your livestock, but wtf else is it supposed to do?

Seems like the biggest wrath is reserved for the indies. and the ones going on a rampage are like scorned lovers that drunk test their exes all the time.

If you really want to see crusading posters checkout the comments in the Robotech Tactics kicksterter:


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/comments
 
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Doktor Best

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Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,876
Well its still stupid. Yes you wasted 6 bucks on a bad game, tough luck. But instead of writing it off you waste further precious lifetime to go on a senseless crusade only to feel empowered.

Heck you waste way more money on a bad drink in a club or a date with a chick who turns out is psychotic or not interested. But do you run around with a cardboard infront of the club each night for 4 weeks or stalk the girl in restaurants to tell others about the bad experience you've had? No? Then why do so many people do that on the internet?
 

Volrath

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DB is not abandoning RPGs. It will focus on other types of games for a while, but the itch to make another RPG is there. From Brian's post:

"We’d love to make another RPG the future, but unless sales say otherwise, we may have to stick to non-RPGs - which is okay, we like those too, but for RPG fans, more options is always a good thing."

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,6479.0.html
They still don't fucking get it do they?
 

likaq

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,198
Brian Mitsoda:

I can say with about 99% certainty that there will not be a Dead State 2. I'd even strongly reconsider using a real world setting again, since press and even players strongly equate RPGS with fantasy/sci-fi settings. Trying to get exposure for this game from the majority of the gaming press has been one of the most frustrating experiences of my career. I don't think Dead State is perfect by any means (I think most RPGs have flaws and frustrations as a result of trying to do everything), and I realize it's not the prettiest game out there, but I suspect it would have been a lot easier to market our first game had it been a fantasy-based RPG that took fewer risks. I know "zombies" are a tired concept for many, but it's not like press have stopped covering the latest zombies shooters and zombie movies, it's just that our setting as an RPG never clicked with them - that or they see "RPG" tacked onto every game with stats and figured we were more about "level 12 shotguns" than character conflict.

I'm really glad that some of the players who played Dead State loved it and that it reminded them of games they remember fondly. We love making RPGs, and chances are we will get the urge to do another one, one of these days - there's no shortage of ideas there. When we set out the plan for the company, however, we definitely did not want to be just "an RPG company". When games of your banner genre take years to make, that strategy only works when you're making mega-hits and sequels to those hits. We started an indie company specifically to work on whatever games we felt like making - RPGS, action games, adventure hybrids, short-term lab experiments that may go nowhere. As a matter of course, I'd say it's a pretty common feeling amongst RPG developers to want to try something different in tone or gameplay after years on a single RPG. And, as I mentioned above, sometimes the marketplace has a hand in the structure of our game, because it really comes down to making enough money to continue on as a company. After so many years on Dead State, I am so looking forward to working on something new - hopefully it resonates with a larger population of gamers, but regardless, it will be a game we want to make. As a game developer, pretty much all you can do at the end of a project, success or not, is press on with the next project and try to do a better job than the last.

I don't care about DS 2 that much but this bit "I'd even strongly reconsider using a real world setting again" makes me very sad.

:|:|:|
 

Perkel

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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
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imo zombies at this point is very very very fucking stale stuff to get excited about (by press or almost anyone)
But i agree actually with him. I like DS but there shouldn't be DS2.
There are far more interesting themes than fucking zombies for RPGs.
 

Zombra

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"I'd even strongly reconsider using a real world setting again" makes me very sad.
Me too, especially in this context ... the lesson here is "Don't bother making an RPG unless it's boilerplate fantasy." :negative:

After the elation of Kickstarter's promise of reclaiming creative control from $-driven publishers, it's horribly discouraging to hear from a dev I admire that he still doesn't feel he can reach for new visions due to the stupidity and ignorance of outside forces.
 

Roguey

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Dead State is an urban fantasy RPG though. :M

It's just not fantastic enough.
 

Gozma

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zombies are a super, super shitty enemy for a turnbased game

it is like trying to build a tower by stacking spheres on top of one another to make them not-boring
 

Brutan

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I'm sorry to hear there're won't be a second Dead State. I liked the game despite its flaws and after about 10 hours of enhanced edition I can see the addition work that's been put in it. Bugs still remain though (zombies walking through doors, I understand that will be fixed soon).

It's a shame really, they had a small number of gamers that loved the game and were willing to back a Dead State 2 Kickstarter (I know I would), they had all those assets from Dead State one that they could have reused and thus saved both money and time. Basically , they had the foundation ready and they could have built on it. Dead State 2 needn't have to be revolutionary just improved (something like Shadowrun Returns and Dragonfall and now Hong Kong).

"I'd even strongly reconsider using a real world setting again"


I don't think another RPG fantasy clone would have done much better but who knows. At least consider a SCI FI /futuristic genre. Like managing one of humanities last ships (aka shelter) as they explore the galaxy.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
This is actually the third time Mitsoda has tried for an RPG that uses a "real world setting", and the third time it's bitten him in the ass.

But it also seems to me that he's always compromised that aspiration by subjecting his games to genre expectations. Vampires, spies, zombies.
 

Roguey

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None of those games were fun so the problem lies in the gameplay, not the setting. :M

Obsidian Entertainment's South Park was very well received. :)
 

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