In Progress DECLINE 22: Primitive Proliferation

[Isiloon]

Updating post as I go

Armies of evil and darkness, shadowblasting and ride with the lights turned off


Desperate to inflict damage, the sequani mages of Marverni join as one to rip the very fabric of reality in their bid to defeat one of Helheim's capital forces

A truly valiant attempt to defeat the Helheim army, yet it was ultimately unsuccessful. As all hope seems lost - distant warhorns sound over the horizon, could these be the horns of the saviors?

I think Marverni could have won that with different scripting and specifically casting solar brilliance would have done wonders. Worth noting Helheim didn't have much in the way of a mage force.

 

[KoolNoodles]

All the mages are over by dearest Pangaea of course.

Astral geyser sucks vs magic resist, news at 11.

The decked out cloud trapeze earthquake dudes though, now that was interesting. And yet, maybe predictable. Alt9 can't come soon enough.

Grim was in a tough spot, with the world giving the game to Pangaea(this is not a joke, as a sub this is what I see). We'll see how well you all attack though.

Finally finished off Machaka.

 

[Grimwulf]

Worth noting Helheim didn't have much in the way of a mage force.

And KN still managed to win. Against 50 mages of Marverni and overwhelming forces. That's pure skill.

with the world giving the game to Pangaea

Yeah, this. Games like that sadden me a lot, when everyone unite and play kingmaker for a nation that never had a proper war or challenge.

It's true that Helheim is one of the superpowers atm, but Pangaea is even bigger threat. A rational man would stand aside and watch two nations beat each other 1 vs 1, giving an opportunity for others to develop and become superpowers themselves. And for some of the nations it's a perfect chance to break free from bonds of vassalage.

But no. Let's destroy the only nation capable of stopping Pangaea together. Let's work as united force in the name of Isiloon.

Disgrace.

 

[Isiloon]

All the mages are over by dearest Pangaea of course.

Expected, see you soon
:D

Finally finished off Machaka.

"haha I died, but come back as a sub for #1 nation to grief you - hahaha you suck!"

Grim was in a tough spot

Yea, he killed an AI, backstabbed Machaka who didn't resist, attack a smaller Marverni and Berytos unprovoked, then wanted to attack Mictlan until the latter made a defensive pact with Pangaea - wow, so diplomacy, much strategic ... A+++++++

Who would have guessed these nations would team up with Helheim's biggest competitor to defeat Helheim.

100 guys beat 500 guys with mages, what could it possibly be???!!?!11

It makes me really sad when I bully everyone and then they gang up on me, I can't be bothered fighting all the enemies I've made so I'll resign

You've never beaten me Isiloon

- resigns in 1 game, turtles in cap circle with glamor in another.

Everyone can see that if you attacked me 1 on 1 you'd probably win, you did eat a ton of provinces for free and never sacrificed any troops - if you beat me, nobody else would have a chance and you'd win the game. If we defeat you, there's still Mictlan and Rlyeh who will be in a position to contest the game. There's nothing dishonorable in having more mutual interests with players than you.

Let's work as united force in the name of Isiloon.

We even pushed for shadow trade sanctions and the coalition offered some shadow-help to Marverni to slow you down successfully. Nothing brings people together like large mutual enemies...

However this coalition, was never about "helping Isiloon"

It was about defeating the menace Helheim which was threatening all the members.

Those are not the same things. If Helheim emerged from war stronger, Rlyeh can't touch him, Mictlan hasn't reached his potential yet - GG.
If Pangaea emerges from war stronger, both of them have better military leverage because

A) Never had any negative actions with Rlyeh and didn't even contest him taking my under-water cap circle. Working with me he's only made profits and will continue to do so.

B) a war where Pangaea emerges and Helheim crumbles will take more time, therefore Mictlan will have time to leverage their blood site more - since you're throwing all your military at me most likely - free land grabs, what's not to love?

C) Stop trying to seduce my perma-allies - both of them enjoy comfort of stability with Pangaea knowing nobody will touch them, one can assume that you probably won't resist their armies either so they will get free lands too.

D) Marverni is already at war with you

Disgrace.

 

[Isiloon]

going to postpone hosting for 48 because I'm flying for 2 days

 

[Dayyālu]

Actually Helheim has been nothing but honourable in his dealings with me, going far beyond the common Dominions etiquette.

MARVERNI AND MICTLAN ON THE OTHER HAND

That said, having Moderator privileges gives me the chance to study carefully Isiloon 's editing patterns.

It's fascinating! How do people resist the temptation to abuse such power?

Wait, they don't

 

[Infinitum]

Oh for crying out loud. We were supposedly allied vs Mictlan remember? "Honourable" indeed.

As for that battle.. well, I needed something that wouldn't automatically target the construct chaff, the main geyser effect has "no effect on mindless" and the 2 AN damage has 10 AoE should one believe the spell description. Forcing several dozen MR checks in magic 2+ dominion seemed a safer bet than hoping Starfires would actually strike the Helhird. I'm more disappointed in the performance of Maws of the Earth tbh. Oh well. One makes mistakes to learn from them.

And Solar Brilliance. Sure, would if I could but detouring to Ench 7 isn't exactly an option in my current circumstances.

Now this though:

Spoiler

Still kinda-sorta came out ahead by my reckoning since those mages were all kitted with boosters. My casualties? Enemy Wizard scripted Phoenix Power - Phoenix Pyre - reanimating in Incinerate range.

 

[Isiloon]

That said, having Moderator privileges gives me the chance to study carefully Isiloon 's editing patterns.

It's fascinating! How do people resist the temptation to abuse such power?

Wait, they don't

I imagine it would be much more interesting as I tried to make it less bragadocious and inflammatory - you will see I edit a lot of my posts, changing the wording subtly and leaving out game info that could be valuable to enemies.

Each post is a carefully crafted creation.

You will see how deep the autism truly goes by the sheer number of edits.

 

[Dayyālu]

Dropping teleporting\cloud trapezing mages with clean-up spells was a proven tactic in Dom4, with the hilarious results that IBCM-like RoS spam with cheap mages made some games entirely unviable and boring as fuck.

Lucky us, EQ casters are both pricey and easier to counter, plus the new RT battle system gets considerable less chances to teleporting mages to do their thing.

I still remember Malakal dropping like dozens of RoS Druids on Grimmie in an old game. Dec2, even. Everywhere you dared go outside of a fort you got 1-2 druids sent to you like some crazy human intercontinental missile.

Fun times.

Worse times.

EDIT: Infinitum , also, checking Helheim's losses, not worth it. You lost 2 StR recruits and he lost chaff. Yeah, as I thought, the age of the teleporting suicide mage is somewhat over. Imagine that once Rain Of Stones hit everyone in the field for a 8 dmg capped attack or something. EVERYONE. You could poof entire armies with some chaincasting, as a E1A1 was good enough to cast it.

Insanity.

EDIT2: also, Maws of the Earth, like thedeaththingwhatwasthenamenotNetherDartsnotNetherBolts SHADOW BOLTS, scale scale quite nicely. Try 'em up with a strong communion and chaincast them, they melt heavier troops nicely.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Still kinda-sorta came out ahead by my reckoning since those mages were all kitted with boosters. My casualties? Enemy Wizard scripted Phoenix Power - Phoenix Pyre - reanimating in Incinerate range.

It was a nice idea, even the bigger battle with what you had. I'm still trying to get grips with Helheim(never played these glamour types in MP, but Dominions is still Dominions) and scripting. Think we both could have done better.

Though I think that trade was not worth it, or not something you'd want to do in the future. I lost mostly cheap mercs and stuff that got replaced fourfold literally this turn, and all those boosters were thankfully picked up by other commanders. It was an interesting try though, and changes my thinking. Mostly, this game is a headache. I see why Grimwulf found some poor sap to do it.

All the NAPs end this turn right? Armageddon time?

 

[Infinitum]

Did you script the Wizard with that stunt in mind or did we just witness the spellcasting AI pull through for once? (Does prepared orders even reset post-reanimation?) Guessing no since I didn't see any real EQ defense scripts in your larger stack? If yes, neat (if unreliable), will remember that for future reference.

I'm coming to realize that tactical combat in Dominions boils down to "Do your buffed troops win in melee? If No - do you have superior numbers of evocation mages or missile troops AND enough chaff? If No, can you summon enough troops to make all enemy troops fatigue out? If No - you lose". Which puts me in a bit of a pickle since I have no viable thugs or counter thugs (except Golems), no troops capable of hurting Vans and my only reliable offensive mage seems to be (vanilla) E2 Druids and communion-backed Druids. Maybe Gutuaters with Breath of the Dragon but eh. Hmmm.

Yeah, this. Games like that sadden me a lot, when everyone unite and play kingmaker for a nation that never had a proper war or challenge.

It's true that Helheim is one of the superpowers atm, but Pangaea is even bigger threat. A rational man would stand aside and watch two nations beat each other 1 vs 1, giving an opportunity for others to develop and become superpowers themselves. And for some of the nations it's a perfect chance to break free from bonds of vassalage.

But no. Let's destroy the only nation capable of stopping Pangaea together. Let's work as united force in the name of Isiloon.

Disgrace.

Remind me, why did you attack me again?

 

[Dayyālu]

Did you script the Wizard with that stunt in mind or did we just witness the spellcasting AI pull through for once? (Does prepared orders even reset post-reanimation?) Guessing no since I didn't see any real EQ defense scripts in your larger stack? If yes, neat (if unreliable), will remember that for future reference.

Dominions' AI cast routines are opaque as they are messy. Tbh, what can be guessed is that every spell has a "weight" and the AI goes for that and for HP targeting routines. Some spells have (and had for years) borked priorities, for example if the AI doesn't "think" that you need more Cold Resist it will ignore your cold-resist buff and spam some useless shit. It also has a raging boner for summon spells, making it good for D2 (skellspam) and hilarious for A mages (phantasmal warriors and wolves instead of Evo spam).

But again, suiciding EQ mages isn't a viable strategy long term.

I'm coming to realize that tactical combat in Dominions boils down to "Do your buffed troops win in melee? If No - do you have superior numbers of evocation mages or missile troops AND enough chaff? If No, can you summon enough troops to make all enemy troops fatigue out? If No - you lose".

Congrats. Add lategame crap (battlefield clearing spells, ritual massacres and SC building) and you have the basics on line. Once upon a time I cared enough to check all the details, but you'll quickly go insane if you approach lategame wars with the microing mindset.

On the negative, you are already employing all the tricks that Marverni has: it's a human nation with mediocre paths and some chaff, its offensive capabilities have been plummeting for a while. I don't even think there is a viable lategame for Marverni where it does not get shredded by someone else. And Helheim is also kinda mediocre: if you had to fight against Mictlan (that's now starting his unholy engines) you would feel pain.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Yeah, EA Mictlan is extremely good. The new bless mechanics somewhat nerfed the early Jag bless(no cheap ass imprisoned regen for you), but I don't think it matters. It's a nation that starts fairly strong and just gets better the whole game.

Might even be my pick to win this one eventually if the Pangaea/Helheim WW3 ruins everyone else enough. Mictlan can snipe off Berytos, pick up the pieces of Marverni, perhaps go tackle R'lyeh. All the while, every turn means more great summons via blood.

Also it's sqeecoo , master of waiting things out while everyone dies and then winning with a snowball of summons at the end.

 

[Infinitum]

But again, suiciding EQ mages isn't a viable strategy long term.

It was a EP/EQ/Returning script with Rings of Levitation and rShock items. In, out, 20 second adventure. Would've worked without casualties if that fire mage hadn't revived in my deployment zone. Could've gone for a riskier EP/EQ/EQ I guess and banked on HP rout but that seemed iffy what with the sacred Giants. Maybe with more freespawn items, idk.

Anyhow, did some lifting and pondered the current game; came to realize I've tested what I wanted to test and it isn't much enjoyment left in it for me. Playing solely to prevent GrimNoodles from winning doesn't really interest me, and it does eat an awful lot of time scripting. Any takers? It has a decent short-term outlook of attritioning Helheim out of the peninsula (a dozen fort pumping mages in close proximity) and an abysmal long game of being eaten by Mictlan/R'lyeh.

I think lategame Marverni might work with a mix of Blood Vengeance Boar raiders/counterraiders and Mind Control communion deathballs, but sadly didn't go for that (and even so I have no idea how to survive vs bless rushes; Thauma/Alt could give Earth Meld communions early but even that seems iffy). Methinks I'll stick to proven strong nations for a while.

 

[Grimwulf]

Remind me, why did you attack me again?

Several reasons.

1. I expected half of the world to attack me, which means considerable losses. Needed to grab lands in order to compensate in advance. Among all my neighbours, you were the easiest match. Not skill-wise, mind you (never played against you before), but strictly nation-position-bless-research. I figured Helheim could take a lot from Marverni without any losses, while keeping main forces on freakin' Pangaea borders. In the end I was right. I sorta expected you to surrender early on, though. We could agree on new borders and new NAP, or maybe you would go AI (many others do here on Codex), but the war turned out to be fun and cheap, and you weren't trying to start negotiations. So there was no reason to stop.

2. I expected you to jump on Helheim during world war - and since I never played with you before, I have no idea if you would honor our NAP 3 by sending me a warning, or simply jump on me out of the blue. You gotta understand that what you did with Berytos looks exactly like backstab. So what's the guarantee you wouldn't do the same against Helheim? Maybe I was wrong, but in any case Helheim-Marverni wasn't protected. And there was no reason to keep any troops there, unless I wanted to attack OR was 100% you will invade. I wasn't sure, and didn't want to keep those borders unprotected. Attacking was a better option.

3. Dayyalu made me do it. Blame him.

Wait, do I smell some bad blood here? When I invaded you, I declared war 3 turns beforehand, just like we agreed. I didn't even attempt to find allies against you. It was an honest 1 on 1 war, by the book, no strings attached.

THAT's how men used to play Dominions in the old days.

 

[Infinitum]

Nah, no problem with warring in wargames, and FFA's go as they come. If anything people maintaining NAPs to their own detriment surprises me. I did find it somewhat surprising what with your very public lamentations of people ganging up on you on the other side of the map though (and as you yourself noted, attacking you could effectively throw the game to Pangea). Pretty sure Mictlan share that sentment as well; there's just enough ascension points on our respective peninsulas to win without getting directly involved in the larger conflict.

Losseswise.. yeah. No clean counter to those thugs in sight I'm afraid, and I do have a sense of your income. Still not sure trading a over dozen kitted thugs and three-fourscore of hard-to-replace Helhirdings compensate for the handful of provinces you've gained the last 8 turns though (my own losses nonwithstanding).

 

[Grimwulf]

Still not sure trading a over dozen kitted thugs and three-fourscore of hard-to-replace Helhirdings compensate for the handful of provinces you've gained the last 8 turns though (my own losses nonwithstanding).

I sent 100 Helhirdings to fight you and lost about 10-15 of them before I resigned. Not like it matters, since cap-only sacreds play a very minor role in late midgame. They can still do stuff, but you can't rely your strategy on them.

As for thugs - yeah, you outplayed me in that regard. Raiding game is all about "what my opponent gonna do, and how do I act in response/advance". Mistakes were made on my part, but you showed a very decent perfomance countering raiders. And yet the outcome of war is not determined by thugs and raids. You gotta beat armies and mages, capture forts, secure territory, make your enemies surrender or annihilate them completely.

 

[Infinitum]

Until they show up with army support to soak the mind burns and just wreck face.

Oh well, it was fun fighting you too. Instructive, even. Trying to apply some of it in D23, we'll see how it goes. Next time I'll try picking a nation capable of winning a straight fight once in a while.

 

[sqeecoo]

Also it's sqeecoo , master of waiting things out while everyone dies and then winning with a snowball of summons at the end.

That's... sadly accurate

 

[Dayyālu]

It was a EP/EQ/Returning script with Rings of Levitation and rShock items. In, out, 20 second adventure. Would've worked without casualties if that fire mage hadn't revived in my deployment zone.

Test Returning.

It's not a reliable method of getting something home nowadays, as Returning has several downsides particularly if applied to pricey StR mages. The era of cheapo Human IBCM missiles is over, if not as Vergeltungswaffen.

Also, mantaining NAPs and not doing backstabs helps. If Grimmie elf-alpha striked you you would have crumbled faster. Imagine what would have happened if someone gave Berytps three turns to prepare instead of reneging an alliance you proposed and backstabbing. Yeah, regen 20% Melqarts and blood communions.

Grimmie gave you a fighting chance out of sheer honour: you gave jack shit.

 

[KoolNoodles]

My turns:

I was gonna overlay a Dominions map of the game with fake moves, but I don't have Isiloon 's skill autism in editing.

 

[mondblut]

Not like it matters, since cap-only sacreds play a very minor role in late midgame.

Wait, what? You mean you people use other troops? (blood summons aside, ofc).

Mindboggling.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Not like it matters, since cap-only sacreds play a very minor role in late midgame.

Wait, what? You mean you people use other troops? (blood summons aside, ofc).

Mindboggling.

Well Isiloon uses other people's troops for his battles, that's for sure.

 

[Isiloon]

Well Isiloon uses other people's troops for his battles, that's for sure.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Time to get screwed.