Decline Designers grabbing you by the hand and leading you isn't very fun

[Darth Canoli]

except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.

Except Fallout 2 isn't a game made by trannies for trannies with a shitty engine full of memory leaks trying to be a loading screen simulator.

 

[Old Hans]

Witcher 3 was the worst offender of this

 

[rusty_shackleford]

except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

 

[Denim Destroyer]

Yes, graphics advancement is what ruins game design in this case. But not visual clarity.

Sorry that was a typo on my end. I meant "graphical advancement ruins game design and visual clarity" not "visual clarity and graphics advancement ruins game design."
Anyhow I am reminded of this study comparing neuroplasticity degradation between people who play FPS and platformers with researchers coming to the conclusion that waypoints and other on screen markers are detrimental for spatial learning.

Spoiler

http://www.bic.mni.mcgill.ca/users/..._Molecular_Psychiatry_VideoGames2018final.pdf
It therefore remains possible that action video games designed without such in-game GPS or wayfinding routes overlaid on the game’s display for the player to follow could better encourage spatial learning during action video game playing.

 

[agris]

Witcher 3 was the worst offender of this

press X to reveal hidden passage

 

[plem]

except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

alright rusty, WotR isn't a real RPG then. this adaptation of a tabletop roleplaying game module for personal computers isn't a CRPG because it doesn't have point-and-click adventure elements. if your agenda has rotten your brain to the point that you're willing to bite this bullet, who am I to argue?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

alright rusty, WotR isn't a real RPG then. this adaptation of a tabletop roleplaying game module for personal computers isn't a CRPG because it doesn't have point-and-click adventure elements. if your agenda has rotten your brain to the point that you're willing to bite this bullet, who am I to argue?

bad adaptations exist, yes.
if you enter a room and your DM says "do you want to perform a DC 11 athletics check to jump up a ledge", you should probably find a new DM.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yes, graphics advancement is what ruins game design in this case. But not visual clarity.

Sorry that was a typo on my end. I meant "graphical advancement ruins game design and visual clarity" not "visual clarity and graphics advancement ruins game design."
Anyhow I am reminded of this study comparing neuroplasticity degradation between people who play FPS and platformers with researchers coming to the conclusion that waypoints and other on screen markers are detrimental for spatial learning.

Spoiler

http://www.bic.mni.mcgill.ca/users/..._Molecular_Psychiatry_VideoGames2018final.pdf
It therefore remains possible that action video games designed without such in-game GPS or wayfinding routes overlaid on the game’s display for the player to follow could better encourage spatial learning during action video game playing.

The most telling sign of decline about this research is that the researchers automatically assumed that "video games" have GPS markers by default, and didn't fully test games that don't have them.

 

[Black_Willow]

except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

Ok, but we're not discussing Age of Decadence here.

 

[plem]

except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

alright rusty, WotR isn't a real RPG then. this adaptation of a tabletop roleplaying game module for personal computers isn't a CRPG because it doesn't have point-and-click adventure elements. if your agenda has rotten your brain to the point that you're willing to bite this bullet, who am I to argue?

bad adaptations exist, yes.
if you enter a room and your DM says "do you want to perform a DC 11 athletics check to jump up a ledge", you should probably find a new DM.

is it a bad RPG now, or not an RPG at all?

I don't know how much more engaging it would be if instead of just clicking a button on the ledge to do an athletics check I instead had to click another button on the UI to pick the athletics skill and then on the ledge. real tabletop sessions also don't have quickload functionality, so obscuring the DC is pointless if I know I'll just reload until I get it anyway. and the novelty of discovery would fade on subsequent playthroughs when I had figured out that, indeed, it's an athletics check to jump. regardless, I don't play WotR for the admittely lackluster exploration just as I don't play Fallout for the combat, which was the point I was originally making.

 

[lukaszek]

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

what if cyoa got dice rolls?

 

[JarlFrank]

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

what if cyoa got dice rolls?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

except WotR isn't a small scale immersive adventure like Fallout but a grand campaign of interplanar warfare where you command thousands of people across huge swaths of land over many months of in-game time... so there's a different level of granular detail to be expected. it leans more into the strategy and management aspect of RPGs rather than the exploration.

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

Ok, but we're not discussing Age of Decadence here.

It's essentially the same result, it being a dialogue choice or a mysterious button floating in the world doesn't change this. It's CYOA design.

 

[KateMicucci]

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

what if cyoa got dice rolls?

Are these good?

 

[Kruyurk]

...

That's what I want. I want to feel like I'm a really dude breaking into a dungeon and looting shit. I don't care about boomer PNP rules. Gygax did the best simulation he could with dice, but now we have better technology.

I fully agree, I am much more interested in games that don't use a PnP system as a basis but take full advantage of what a computer can do.

I don't understand the appeal of recent CRPGs showing actual dices to the player, like in BG3 (I think Solasta also does it). The dices were a mean to an end in tabletop RPGs, not the actual object of interest. What feels really backward (to me) are video games that are not based on a tabletop ruleset yet still use dices. If you need some RNG for abstraction, why not use a statistical distribution, even if it is a "flat" uniform distribution?

I have recently started playing RimWorld and that is exactly what I hope more games would do (even if it is not a RPG, but close enough for the argument). Everything that is not abstracted is built in a systemic way and interconnected with the other parts, nothing feels like a side gimmick. On the other hand the graphics are more abstracted than in most games, with humans and animals represented without members.

In that respect, Battle Brothers shares some similarity with RimWorld. Everything is systemic, and the management/strategy part outside of combat would not work otherwise. Likewise the graphics abstract the character members, but you forget about it once playing and representing them would not add anything gameplay-wise (I actually think seeing the ugly faces of your bros in large is part of the charm -- it's always hilarious to discover that the one you just hired is even more ridiculous with the bowlcut he was hiding under his peasant hat).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't understand the appeal of recent CRPGs showing actual dices to the player, like in BG3

Because it being based on pnp is part of its appeal, it's a tie-in with an existing product.

 

[Sunri]

At least, the designer wants to hold your hand.

 

[wishbonetail]

At least, the designer wants to hold your hand.

For money.

 

[Kruyurk]

I don't understand the appeal of recent CRPGs showing actual dices to the player, like in BG3

Because it being based on pnp is part of its appeal, it's a tie-in with an existing product.

It nontheless feels backward to me. Tabletop RPGs are people sitting at a table trying to live an adventure. And now CRPGs are people sitting in front of a computer trying to live the experience of someone sitting at a table rolling dices ? But the table and dices part were not the point of TTRPGs. All it does is break the immersion -- it's like BG3 telling you that the real experience would be sitting at a table, instead of being a real person in the Forgotten Realms.

 

[JarlFrank]

At least, the designer wants to hold your hand.

For money.

A whore is cheaper than those games at full price.

 

[lukaszek]

games that tell the player what to do can barely even be considered RPGs, they are CYOAs.

what if cyoa got dice rolls?

Are these good?

doubt it, whoever made pic of their collection clearly didnt use them much

 

[purupuru]

Calling WOTR of all games a game where developers hold your hands is one of the most retarded points rusty has ever made. It's one of the very few modern games where people actually had to rely on reverse engineering to find out solutions to puzzles and secret content (although the hints were there all along). I talked about the bracer in Areelu's lab, but obviously there are many more, the secret room in Midnight Fane, the Titan Rune secret quest in Abyss, and the freaking secret ending itself where you need to fulfill a dozen secret conditions and enter a location during an exact time period on the calendar. But of course rusty don't even know what I'm talking about because he just loves talking about games he didn't play and pretends he is making some PRESTIGIOUS™ observations.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Calling WOTR of all games a game where developers hold your hands is one of the most retarded points rusty has ever made. It's one of the very few modern games where people actually had to rely on reverse engineering to find out solutions to puzzles and secret content (although the hints were there all along). I talked about the bracer in Areelu's lab, but obviously there are many more, the secret room in Midnight Fane, the Titan Rune secret quest in Abyss, and the freaking secret ending itself where you need to fulfill a dozen secret conditions and enter a location during an exact time period on the calendar. But of course rusty don't even know what I'm talking about because he just loves talking about games he didn't play and pretends he is making some PRESTIGIOUS™ observations.

nothing you have posted has anything to do with the topic, take your tranny cope elsewhere please

 

[purupuru]

nothing you have posted has anything to do with the topic, take your tranny cope elsewhere please

Ah, yes sure, please stop talking about what's actually in the game (because rusty knows nothing about those), but keep circle-jerking about trannies and whatnot.
You know your point would actually make a lot more sense if you use New Vegas or TOW as the example, where the checks are static instead of D20, and failing a check does not lead to severe punishment (or in certain cases instant death). And, you know, you actually played those games.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

nothing you have posted has anything to do with the topic, take your tranny cope elsewhere please

Ah, yes sure, please stop talking about what's actually in the game (because rusty knows nothing about those), but keep circle-jerking about trannies and whatnot.
You know your point would actually make a lot more sense if you use New Vegas or TOW as the example, where the checks are static instead of D20, and failing a check does not lead to severe punishment (or in certain cases instant death). And, you know, you actually played those games.

see, your entire argument(and why you're seething) is I picked your tranny simulator game. "please oh please pick anything else!"
and it being random or static has nothing to do with the thread, you are again not understanding what we are discussing at all because you immediately became angry that I picked your trannysim as an example of terrible design