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Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

Tygrende

Arbiter
Joined
Aug 2, 2017
Messages
873
Stupid question: Can you have more than 70 AP?

Like for example: 10 AGL + Blitz = 70 AP + Adrenaline = 90 AP

Is the scenario above possible?
Yes to both.
 

Pope Amole II

Nerd Commando Game Studios
Developer
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
2,052
Codex pretends to be the hardcore RPG grognard community, yet it's the only one where people get mad when any game throws them actual challenges and forces them to adapt.

Dudes, far as I can tell, you have very little idea as for why your game has sold as much as it did. No offense meant, though you obviously will get offended, but whatever.

All this "community complaining about low difficulty" is highly questionable. What community? Sure, your uber-core on your forums may act this way. But you've sold 100k copies and your forum population is what, exactly? On steam community, there are minimal signs of anyone enjoying that difficulty. In the negative review section, all helpful reviews are about difficulty being too high and tedious, not the other way around. And those people are your customers too, you know. Do you think they need this dominating shit or do you want to think that they do?

I mean, Underrail is a great game, but it's great in a way that Deus Ex is great. Perhaps it tries to pose more as the System Shock 2, but no, it's the Deus Ex. And Deus Ex, even on Realistic, is not hard at all. It's enjoyed because of its sheer interactivity and the amount of things it allows you to do. Also, I dunno about the majority of people here, but most of my Deus Ex runs were never finished (stopping somewhere around Hong Kong) because the game, while cool, just continued to be more of the same, more of the stuff I've already experienced enough. And while I've had my fun up to that point, I just saw no need to continue. I have the exact same feeling with Underrail.

Initially, it feels great because of the sheer volume of things it tries to offer to you. And you just can't have enough of it as you need to test this build and then that build and oh, this other one wouldn't hurt to try our... And testing them is fun, early game is cool, gaining those necessary perks and gadgets feels satisfying. But upon reaching the levels 12-14, you're always flatlining. Always. You've reached the peak of your abilities (functionally speaking) and you're not developing anymore. The overall numbers in the game go higher and higher, but nothing really changes. Ever. Which is further amplified by the game's excessive and needless padding.

Too much builds tease you with new ideas and with fresh stuff to experiment, but quite soon you understand that they're one trick ponies. Ok, so my energo shooter was one-shotting encounters with her electro-pistols, doing 200 criticals, then running away to recharge. Now she's one-shotting them doing 400 criticals then running. At the end of the game, that's gonna be what, 600 criticals and run?

Or take that sniper build that someone has posted here. You say adapt but, at it's core, I just fail to see the difference from the average one. So you use couple of devastating criticals to snipe the most dangerous targets away, then retreat into the safety of the traps/caltrops. But that's how the hard sniper plays, what's the difference? In the amount of traps being applied?

Another problem is that you're relying on non-interactive design too much. This game is loved because you can interact with stuff in distinct ways. But you're just too intent on putting in the stuff that can be countered in one or two specific ways only. And that's not challenging because it doesn't really include the smarts - it's like the bosses in the Darkest Dungeon. They're not designed to be interacted with, they're designed to wreck the shit out of your unprepared party (generating lulz and memez in the process), then to be mercilessly butchered once you know how they work. It's all about foreknowledge and nothing about smarts. Yeah, sure, you have several dozens of hoops to squeeze through here and you need to design your build accordingly, but once you've designed it, I fail to understand why would you want to actually play that out.

In addition to this lack of development and non-interactivity, you're just relying on the same combat tempo too much. Even on hard, it's a game of "you insta-kill or CC everyone or you're getting insta-killed". Maybe it's sometimes two or three turns, but everyone is basically a glass cannon. Ok, Dominating makes you a glassiest cannon while everyone else is just cannon, but that doesn't really change anything. You're not adapting because there's nowhere to adapt - you still use the very same 1-2-3 potent tricks that you used before. Even this new energo build, TBH, is just another shade of sniper.

And you're nerfing the ways to interact much more than you're adding the new ways of interaction which is somewhat incomprehensible to me.

But whatever. I've glimpsed through the recent reviews and I just have no clue why do you think your audience (all of it and not some 100 people) will appreciate or need this work. Most of them would rather enjoy a global questline rework & improvements with more skill & feat usages in conversations or whatnot. Most of them would actually enjoy conversation skills being affordable as you're always feeling like shit to skip on them because you need combat n' crafting n' stuff. The more hardcore audience would've just preferred more diversity being added into this game. Not this "you're a cool puppy and you know the trick, now repeat it 100 times over". That's not fun.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Codex pretends to be the hardcore RPG grognard community, yet it's the only one where people get mad when any game throws them actual challenges and forces them to adapt.

Dudes, far as I can tell, you have very little idea as for why your game has sold as much as it did. No offense meant, though you obviously will get offended, but whatever.

All this "community complaining about low difficulty" is highly questionable. What community? Sure, your uber-core on your forums may act this way. But you've sold 100k copies and your forum population is what, exactly? On steam community, there are minimal signs of anyone enjoying that difficulty. In the negative review section, all helpful reviews are about difficulty being too high and tedious, not the other way around. And those people are your customers too, you know. Do you think they need this dominating shit or do you want to think that they do?

I mean, Underrail is a great game, but it's great in a way that Deus Ex is great. Perhaps it tries to pose more as the System Shock 2, but no, it's the Deus Ex. And Deus Ex, even on Realistic, is not hard at all. It's enjoyed because of its sheer interactivity and the amount of things it allows you to do. Also, I dunno about the majority of people here, but most of my Deus Ex runs were never finished (stopping somewhere around Hong Kong) because the game, while cool, just continued to be more of the same, more of the stuff I've already experienced enough. And while I've had my fun up to that point, I just saw no need to continue. I have the exact same feeling with Underrail.

Initially, it feels great because of the sheer volume of things it tries to offer to you. And you just can't have enough of it as you need to test this build and then that build and oh, this other one wouldn't hurt to try our... And testing them is fun, early game is cool, gaining those necessary perks and gadgets feels satisfying. But upon reaching the levels 12-14, you're always flatlining. Always. You've reached the peak of your abilities (functionally speaking) and you're not developing anymore. The overall numbers in the game go higher and higher, but nothing really changes. Ever. Which is further amplified by the game's excessive and needless padding.

Too much builds tease you with new ideas and with fresh stuff to experiment, but quite soon you understand that they're one trick ponies. Ok, so my energo shooter was one-shotting encounters with her electro-pistols, doing 200 criticals, then running away to recharge. Now she's one-shotting them doing 400 criticals then running. At the end of the game, that's gonna be what, 600 criticals and run?

Or take that sniper build that someone has posted here. You say adapt but, at it's core, I just fail to see the difference from the average one. So you use couple of devastating criticals to snipe the most dangerous targets away, then retreat into the safety of the traps/caltrops. But that's how the hard sniper plays, what's the difference? In the amount of traps being applied?

Another problem is that you're relying on non-interactive design too much. This game is loved because you can interact with stuff in distinct ways. But you're just too intent on putting in the stuff that can be countered in one or two specific ways only. And that's not challenging because it doesn't really include the smarts - it's like the bosses in the Darkest Dungeon. They're not designed to be interacted with, they're designed to wreck the shit out of your unprepared party (generating lulz and memez in the process), then to be mercilessly butchered once you know how they work. It's all about foreknowledge and nothing about smarts. Yeah, sure, you have several dozens of hoops to squeeze through here and you need to design your build accordingly, but once you've designed it, I fail to understand why would you want to actually play that out.

In addition to this lack of development and non-interactivity, you're just relying on the same combat tempo too much. Even on hard, it's a game of "you insta-kill or CC everyone or you're getting insta-killed". Maybe it's sometimes two or three turns, but everyone is basically a glass cannon. Ok, Dominating makes you a glassiest cannon while everyone else is just cannon, but that doesn't really change anything. You're not adapting because there's nowhere to adapt - you still use the very same 1-2-3 potent tricks that you used before. Even this new energo build, TBH, is just another shade of sniper.

And you're nerfing the ways to interact much more than you're adding the new ways of interaction which is somewhat incomprehensible to me.

But whatever. I've glimpsed through the recent reviews and I just have no clue why do you think your audience (all of it and not some 100 people) will appreciate or need this work. Most of them would rather enjoy a global questline rework & improvements with more skill & feat usages in conversations or whatnot. Most of them would actually enjoy conversation skills being affordable as you're always feeling like shit to skip on them because you need combat n' crafting n' stuff. The more hardcore audience would've just preferred more diversity being added into this game. Not this "you're a cool puppy and you know the trick, now repeat it 100 times over". That's not fun.

Well put, better than anyone of us other critics has so far. I like your analogy with Deus Ex and think it is a very good one.
Some of the problems you mentioned are also immersion breaking. You touched on the conversation skills and I fully agree. For much of the game they are fluff. They can help you avoid a fight here or there or give you better rewards or lower prices for bribes but it is so rare that the overall impact is just minor compare to getting another crafting skill to a high level which is why I feel them being entry granters to for example Protectorate and Drones would change a lot, especially if those two factions also offer some things which others do not like certain high quality crafting components.

Speaking of crafting, people would not feel the need to invest so hard into it if it were not so overpowered. I played initially without crafting and was just barely hanging in there on my PSI Sniper. Then I shifted some points around and with the ability to craft my own sniper rifles and shields the performance of my character skyrocketed.
Take the unique sniper rifle Dragunov. It is a fine rifle and can carry you into endgame but you will struggle in endgame if you try to rely on it. Now compare it to a well optimized Spearhead. Not only can you get it to even lower AP costs, which in conjunction with the Medicine Pouch lets you use a medicine on top of two shots, you can also add 50%+ extra damage on your Snipe and Aimed Shot due to smart goggles, smart module. The Dragunov cannot compete with a high quality Spearhead in any way. I could make the same comparisons for the AFW and Black Arrow but it would be the same. No rapid reloader and no Smart Module make these unique rifles significantly inferior to crafted ones. This is even worse for shields. The best shields I found were hovering in the 500-600 capacity even at endgame. I can craft 700-800 already around 16. Once I have Power Management this skyrockets to well over 1000-1500 in endgame and I read that it can go beyond 1800. We are talking about a factor of 3-4 for this particular piece of equipment.
After all this why did I mention that this is immersion breaking again? Because your character is the only one in the game who can do this. Your character is better than anyone who is a pure craftsman. This is silly. How come the only good items come from you and you alone if you are a craftsman and almost every build I have seen has a substantial amount of points invested into crafting? How come that even if you are at intelligence 5 that your stuff is better than anyone else? It makes no sense. It also undermines choice because while the game can be beat without crafting it is a lot more difficult. I see no reason why there should not be a few high quality craftsmen who demand exorbitant prices for their services. Having such craftsmen who can make such equipment for you could mean that we now have a choice to forgo crafting to some extent. You might still want to do the main items like for example your weapons or psi bands yourself but I see no reason why I should not have the opportunity to pay someone to craft me a nice shield, for an exorbitant price of course if it is a great one.

Another immersion breaking problem for me is that the new enemy types are thrown out like any random critter/goon yet they alone can kill you if they catch you off guard. How is this now immersion breaking someone might ask? Because if they can take you out in one round they can do that to anyone not just you. Now recently I went to the Hanging Rat. I saw 6 of the new Goliathuses there, a stone mere throw away from the crossroad leading to the Hanging Rat. This is again immersion breaking since 6 Goliathuses make short work of anyone and pose even a great threat to well prepared high level characters. They are completely out of place there. And the patrons there are all low level. They are not some level 20+ juggernauts who would actually struggle.
There is no way this makes sense. There is also no way this is fun because many characters are reliant on breaking LoS to function. That area has little no LoS on that side. If you are a psionic you can make a force field and with the aid of some traps you can try something but I sincerly doubt that anyone can do those 6 without major cheese and/or high level.
It also breaks my immersion that the very first crawler you find is of the new and much stronger Death Stalker variety. The first time most people will encounter one will be on a stealth character on his way to the Rat King. For some reason there is now a Death Stalker down there. Many will be between level 8 and 10 when they come there. The only way to beat them at that level is cheese the fuck out of them, by mining or dropping caltrops or playing flare roulette. This is nonsense and again immersion breaking. This is even worse when you get to Core City and do Gorsky's missions. Getting the energy shields can be done by 3 basic routes: Infiltration through the front gate with ID card/armor and persuasion, blowing them up in a tough fight or going through the tunnels under the compound. Now not many builds will have the necessary 70 persuasion to infiltrate the compound so the other two must suffice. Blowing up the compound is not easy. Now you think you can go through the tunnels. Problem? Half a dozen death stalkers with no real warning in game that there is something like them. On hard this is doable for many characters in the level 10-12 range against standard crawlers. Against those though you either have a build which can deal well with them or you cheese the fight, hard.

Lastly a lot of the difficulty can be solved by a simple trick: level up even harder. As someone who plays with Oddity exclusively this means that after Depot A I scour for easy oddities like mad. This in turn though breaks the game flow significantly but it is needed or at the very least recommended. Higher stealth detection can exclusively only countered by higher level since Detection rests solely on level, perception and motion tracking goggles and all builds have to wait for certain core feats which are vital for their success.
To illustrate my point I recently tried to kill the 3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate. At level 6 this was almost impossible. I tried for times and died for times. I could have probably done it with some hard cheese but that was not the point of the test. It was to see how much the new difficulty affected my gameplay. The easiest way to deal with those 3 for me? Wait until level 8 for Snipe and wipe the floor with them. I am not even joking when I say this is the only difference. Simply 1 feat turns a very hard fight into a cake walk. Of course getting those oddities means that I have to make a lot of detours to harvest them. While this is fine and dandy when you are not in the middle of a major quest or on route between settlements. It does feel weird though if you are in the middle of a major quest and feel the need to make a detour in order to tackle its later stages.

A new difficulty should not be immersion breaking. Number inflation is the worst and the laziest kind of difficulty increase and in many cases it does not really increase the difficulty but just adds more tedium.
 
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toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,155

At level 3 on Domination I just killed 11 Psi-Beetles in one fight. Poisoned caltropes are awesome.
80A3E686AC04503D457CBA457C12600E111E231F


At level 4 on Domination I just killed "3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate".
8C34FE94901FE49BD71B34FFCCFDB3840295F575

A3091FA52D430C80F599FA21EEE9E6A9270C44F1

52614DF94168A182A2B1CE9F9E9EFD38B698DF9B

CA5882D90E9A6BB0D19AFCED386BDFCE1ADD9291


To illustrate my point I recently tried to kill the 3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate. At level 6 this was almost impossible. I tried for times and died for times. I could have probably done it with some hard cheese but that was not the point of the test. It was to see how much the new difficulty affected my gameplay. The easiest way to deal with those 3 for me? Wait until level 8 for Snipe and wipe the floor with them. I am not even joking when I say this is the only difference. Simply 1 feat turns a very hard fight into a cake walk. Of course getting those oddities means that I have to make a lot of detours to harvest them. While this is fine and dandy when you are not in the middle of a major quest or on route between settlements. It does feel weird though if you are in the middle of a major quest and feel the need to make a detour in order to tackle its later stages.

It took me 5 tries and I wasted 5 pairs of caltrops but most of the work was done by two Molotovs ... which means that if you are autistic about it then you can win the fight at lvl 1 by save-scumming for a critical Molotov.

I'm no expert on Domination (and maybe my build will suck further down the road) therefore I refrain from making other stupid comments but your "almost impossible" is simply "possible" for others :)

Personally I'm undecided about the Domination difficulty as the main difference from Hard is that you have to deal a huge amount of damage ... somehow. This means that at least in the beginning you have to use utilities: either traps/mines or caltropes/grenades. That's it. I think any build is viable in Domination as long as you are prone to use utilities. The reverse is that on Domination no build is viable without utilities. It sounds retarded and it might be retarded but I just had the best hours of Underrail. The entire experience was tight as fuck. You really have to think about which skills are valuable because you want to get the best stuff asap. Crafting is OP but then it's also optional. I don't know, I will have to see how this build evolves.

Anyway, thank you for complaining about the bandits. My play-through just got easier by killing those thugs ;)



PS. By the way, I gave up on INT because I was too lazy deciding what kind of armor do I want for the late game. Otherwise I could have started with 3 STR, 5 DEX and 7 INT but then I would have been forced to use the Pig leather armor for +1 STR bonus. I'm trying to make a stealth/sniper/utilities/pistol build.
 
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Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,881
Agree with all of popes points, ill add a few thoughts tho.
Initially, it feels great because of the sheer volume of things it tries to offer to you. And you just can't have enough of it as you need to test this build and then that build and oh, this other one wouldn't hurt to try our... And testing them is fun, early game is cool, gaining those necessary perks and gadgets feels satisfying. But upon reaching the levels 12-14, you're always flatlining. Always. You've reached the peak of your abilities (functionally speaking) and you're not developing anymore. The overall numbers in the game go higher and higher, but nothing really changes. Ever. Which is further amplified by the game's excessive and needless padding.
This is a problem with lack of feats and options in battle.


Too much builds tease you with new ideas and with fresh stuff to experiment, but quite soon you understand that they're one trick ponies.
This has always been underrail. Tho the problem would be lessened if active abilities werent so shit, cooldowns werent a thing and the cost of using them was balanced by AP and effects instead.

once you've designed it, I fail to understand why would you want to actually play that out.
This is a problem with many RPGs, once you master the system, theres no point in playing the game. Underrail does offer some shit like a few decent quests and a few interesting challenges down the line. And the latest patch has added more of this, which is good.

You're not adapting because there's nowhere to adapt - you still use the very same 1-2-3 potent tricks that you used before.
Yeah, i complained about this before. This difficulty merely encourages you to stick to whatever works, and repeat it ad nauseam. Its dumb and its lazy and it would have killed the game had it been there on release.

And you're nerfing the ways to interact much more than you're adding the new ways of interaction which is somewhat incomprehensible to me.
Im still pissed they killed the interactivity with Combo. I used to have fun with that shit, i actually planned what hit would go to who when, if i would have the movement needed, etc. Its insane how idiotic that decision was and how much it took away from the build fun factor.

Most of them would rather enjoy a global questline rework & improvements with more skill & feat usages in conversations or whatnot.
Yep, attribute usage too. It was the best part of DC.

Most of them would actually enjoy conversation skills being affordable as you're always feeling like shit to skip on them because you need combat n' crafting n' stuff.
I would enjoy it more if they werent there tbh.

The more hardcore audience would've just preferred more diversity being added into this game.
Yep, more feats, more skills, more weapons, etc. To be fair a lot of it is coming, but im not sure its the right kind of thing. Post 25 levels will mostly be about specializing further, instead of broadening your options it will shrink them.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri

At level 3 on Domination I just killed 11 Psi-Beetles in one fight. Poisoned caltropes are awesome.
80A3E686AC04503D457CBA457C12600E111E231F


At level 4 on Domination I just killed "3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate".
8C34FE94901FE49BD71B34FFCCFDB3840295F575

A3091FA52D430C80F599FA21EEE9E6A9270C44F1

52614DF94168A182A2B1CE9F9E9EFD38B698DF9B

CA5882D90E9A6BB0D19AFCED386BDFCE1ADD9291


To illustrate my point I recently tried to kill the 3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate. At level 6 this was almost impossible. I tried for times and died for times. I could have probably done it with some hard cheese but that was not the point of the test. It was to see how much the new difficulty affected my gameplay. The easiest way to deal with those 3 for me? Wait until level 8 for Snipe and wipe the floor with them. I am not even joking when I say this is the only difference. Simply 1 feat turns a very hard fight into a cake walk. Of course getting those oddities means that I have to make a lot of detours to harvest them. While this is fine and dandy when you are not in the middle of a major quest or on route between settlements. It does feel weird though if you are in the middle of a major quest and feel the need to make a detour in order to tackle its later stages.

It took me 5 tries and I wasted 5 pairs of caltrops but most of the work was done by two Molotovs ... which means that if you are autistic about it then you can win the fight at lvl 1 by save-scumming for a critical Molotov.

I'm no expert on Domination (and maybe my build will suck further down the road) therefore I refrain from making other stupid comments but your "almost impossible" is simply "possible" for others :)

Personally I'm undecided about the Domination difficulty as the main difference from Hard is that you have to deal a huge amount of damage ... somehow. This means that at least in the beginning you have to use utilities: either traps/mines or caltropes/grenades. That's it. I think any build is viable in Domination as long as you are prone to use utilities. The reverse is that on Domination no build is viable without utilities. It sounds retarded and it might be retarded but I just had the best hours of Underrail. The entire experience was tight as fuck. You really have to think about which skills are valuable because you want to get the best stuff asap. Crafting is OP but then it's also optional. I don't know, I will have to see how this build evolves.

Anyway, thank you for complaining about the bandits. My play-through just got easier by killing those thugs ;)



PS. By the way, I gave up on INT because I was too lazy deciding what kind of armor do I want for the late game. Otherwise I could have started with 3 STR, 5 DEX and 7 INT but then I would have been forced to use the Pig leather armor for +1 STR bonus. I'm trying to make a stealth/sniper/utilities/pistol build.

I have not once said that the fights are unwinnable, did I? Yeah caltrops are great. And cheesy. Yeah we get it you like it. We do not. What was the point of this? Bragging? You think I had not thought about these things? Did you miss the point were I mentioned cheese tactics? And again, my main point was that a fight with similar methods (Some psi, 2 bear traps, one mine, Aimed Shot, Snipe, Sprint) goes from very hard to easy with 1 feat. Your post proved my point. Cheese your way through the game or wait even more for the right levels where your build gets its crucial feats.
But hey if you think it is fun that almost every character should throw caltrops and molotovs all the time, be my guest. Just do not expect everyone to like it. It also did nothing to refute my actual points, that this shit is tedious, boring, obnoxious and immersion breaking.
 
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ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,322
You know, all the new superpowered versions of biological enemies make you wonder about the ones that didn't receive such a version, where's the Abyssal Siphoners that can make Blood Golems out of your siphoned blood? Also they come out of your bathroom in SGS on Dominating.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
These guys gave me hard fight.

qVgv.png

Top notch moment was when my Aimed Shot from Electroshock Pistol missed frozen target with 95% cth.

:troll:

I can't call it "fight of my life" because e.g. ToME4 has even more difficult tactical decisions, but... there were definitely options.
Won it with Acid Pistol + Electroshock Pistol.
 
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toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,155
I have not once said that the fights are unwinnable, did I?

To illustrate my point I recently tried to kill the 3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate. At level 6 this was almost impossible. I tried for times and died for times.

My bad.

Your post proved my point. Cheese your way through the game or wait even more for the right levels where your build gets its crucial feats.
But hey if you think it is fun that almost every character should throw caltrops and molotovs all the time, be my guest. Just do not expect everyone to like it. It also did nothing to refute my actual points, that this shit is tedious, boring, obnoxious and immersion breaking.

Every tactic represents more or less a cheese tactic. That's why you play the game: to cheese the final boss (it's an oversimplification).

I'm no fan of utilities but they represent a valid tactic and unfortunately they are mandatory for Domination until your primary specialization kicks-in.

You are just butthurt that you cannot cheese the game like you used to do it on all the other difficulties. I mean glass cannon cheese is so much superior to dumb utilities cheese. Bleah.

Speaking of crafting, people would not feel the need to invest so hard into it if it were not so overpowered. I played initially without crafting and was just barely hanging in there on my PSI Sniper. Then I shifted some points around and with the ability to craft my own sniper rifles and shields the performance of my character skyrocketed.
Take the unique sniper rifle Dragunov. It is a fine rifle and can carry you into endgame but you will struggle in endgame if you try to rely on it. Now compare it to a well optimized Spearhead. Not only can you get it to even lower AP costs, which in conjunction with the Medicine Pouch lets you use a medicine on top of two shots, you can also add 50%+ extra damage on your Snipe and Aimed Shot due to smart goggles, smart module. The Dragunov cannot compete with a high quality Spearhead in any way. I could make the same comparisons for the AFW and Black Arrow but it would be the same. No rapid reloader and no Smart Module make these unique rifles significantly inferior to crafted ones. This is even worse for shields. The best shields I found were hovering in the 500-600 capacity even at endgame. I can craft 700-800 already around 16. Once I have Power Management this skyrockets to well over 1000-1500 in endgame and I read that it can go beyond 1800. We are talking about a factor of 3-4 for this particular piece of equipment.

Retarded complain. Crafting it's overpowered but that's the point of it in every fucking RPG ever. Asking for a nerf is just retarded.

After all this why did I mention that this is immersion breaking again? Because your character is the only one in the game who can do this. Your character is better than anyone who is a pure craftsman. This is silly. How come the only good items come from you and you alone if you are a craftsman and almost every build I have seen has a substantial amount of points invested into crafting? How come that even if you are at intelligence 5 that your stuff is better than anyone else? It makes no sense. It also undermines choice because while the game can be beat without crafting it is a lot more difficult. I see no reason why there should not be a few high quality craftsmen who demand exorbitant prices for their services. Having such craftsmen who can make such equipment for you could mean that we now have a choice to forgo crafting to some extent. You might still want to do the main items like for example your weapons or psi bands yourself but I see no reason why I should not have the opportunity to pay someone to craft me a nice shield, for an exorbitant price of course if it is a great one.

Valid complain. There should be the possibility to ask a craftsman to craft something for you.

Another immersion breaking problem for me is that the new enemy types are thrown out like any random critter/goon yet they alone can kill you if they catch you off guard. How is this now immersion breaking someone might ask? Because if they can take you out in one round they can do that to anyone not just you. Now recently I went to the Hanging Rat. I saw 6 of the new Goliathuses there, a stone mere throw away from the crossroad leading to the Hanging Rat. This is again immersion breaking since 6 Goliathuses make short work of anyone and pose even a great threat to well prepared high level characters. They are completely out of place there. And the patrons there are all low level. They are not some level 20+ juggernauts who would actually struggle.
There is no way this makes sense. There is also no way this is fun because many characters are reliant on breaking LoS to function. That area has little no LoS on that side. If you are a psionic you can make a force field and with the aid of some traps you can try something but I sincerly doubt that anyone can do those 6 without major cheese and/or high level.

Valid complain. Styg went overboard with mob spawning on Domination.

It also breaks my immersion that the very first crawler you find is of the new and much stronger Death Stalker variety. The first time most people will encounter one will be on a stealth character on his way to the Rat King. For some reason there is now a Death Stalker down there. Many will be between level 8 and 10 when they come there. The only way to beat them at that level is cheese the fuck out of them, by mining or dropping caltrops or playing flare roulette. This is nonsense and again immersion breaking. This is even worse when you get to Core City and do Gorsky's missions. Getting the energy shields can be done by 3 basic routes: Infiltration through the front gate with ID card/armor and persuasion, blowing them up in a tough fight or going through the tunnels under the compound. Now not many builds will have the necessary 70 persuasion to infiltrate the compound so the other two must suffice. Blowing up the compound is not easy. Now you think you can go through the tunnels. Problem? Half a dozen death stalkers with no real warning in game that there is something like them. On hard this is doable for many characters in the level 10-12 range against standard crawlers. Against those though you either have a build which can deal well with them or you cheese the fight, hard.

I don't know about this. Glass cannon doesn't work on Domination.

Lastly a lot of the difficulty can be solved by a simple trick: level up even harder. As someone who plays with Oddity exclusively this means that after Depot A I scour for easy oddities like mad. This in turn though breaks the game flow significantly but it is needed or at the very least recommended. Higher stealth detection can exclusively only countered by higher level since Detection rests solely on level, perception and motion tracking goggles and all builds have to wait for certain core feats which are vital for their success.
To illustrate my point I recently tried to kill the 3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate. At level 6 this was almost impossible. I tried for times and died for times. I could have probably done it with some hard cheese but that was not the point of the test. It was to see how much the new difficulty affected my gameplay. The easiest way to deal with those 3 for me? Wait until level 8 for Snipe and wipe the floor with them. I am not even joking when I say this is the only difference. Simply 1 feat turns a very hard fight into a cake walk. Of course getting those oddities means that I have to make a lot of detours to harvest them. While this is fine and dandy when you are not in the middle of a major quest or on route between settlements. It does feel weird though if you are in the middle of a major quest and feel the need to make a detour in order to tackle its later stages.

You can do almost any shit at any level although lvl 1 runs are probably not possible.

It's true that by lvl 10 you have everything you need in order to finish the game (in my 1st play-through I've reached DC at lvl 18). However asking for less XP/oddities is just stupid because it requires a complete game/encounters redesign.

A better solution would be to increase higher level requirements for overpowered feats like Ambush or Snipe. Look bellow. Everything is grouped around lvl 4-6 while it would be better to "disperse" the feats a little bit.

Feats of Underrail by minimal level and skill requirements. Feats marked with + provide a new ability. For lists by specific attribute/skill, see Category: Feats.

Level 1 (0-15)
ExpertiseNimbleNinja LooterOpportunistPack RathoundParanoiaQuick PocketsRecklessnessSnoopingAimed Shot+ • Armor SlopingBurglarClothierConditioningDoctorFast MetabolismGun NutGunslingerHeavy Punch+ • Hit and RunJuggernautMarksmanPower ManagementSkinnerSprint+ • StoicismSuppressive FireSure StepSurvival InstinctsThick Skull

Level 2 (20)
Corporeal ProjectionDisassembleInterloperPsychosisPummel+ • TranquilityYell+

Level 4 (25-30)
Cerebral TraumaDirty Kick+ • Force UserHigh-TechnicalitiesKneecap Shot+ • Lightning PunchesPoint ShotQuick Tinkering+ • Steadfast AimVile WeaponryWeaponsmithBowyerConcussive ShotsCrippling Strike+ • Escape Artist+ GrenadierMeditationMental SubversionThermodynamicityTrap Expert

Level 6 (35-40)
BallisticsCooked Shot+ • DeflectionHypertoxicityLast Stand+ • NeurologyPractical PhysicistPyromaniacSalesmanSnipe+ AmbushCheap ShotsExpose Weakness+ • Fancy FootworkFull-AutoHypothermiaMad ChemistPinningPremeditation+ • Psychostatic ElectricityUncanny Dodge+ • Wrestling

Level 8 (45-50)
Bone BreakerCryogenic InductionEvasive Maneuvers+ • Fatal ThrowGuardPsionic Mania+ • Rapid Fire+ • RipperSpec OpsSpecial Tactics+ • Taste for BloodThree-Pointer

Level 10 (55-60)
Cut-Throat+ • Telekinetic UndulationBlitz+ • Concentrated FireSharpshooter

Level 12 (65-70)
ComboNeural OverclockingExecute+

Level 14 (75‑80)
Critical PowerDeadly SnaresElemental BoltsLocus of Control+ • Super Slam+ — CommandoEviscerate+ • Split Spare

Level 18 (100)
Heavyweight

Special
Psi EmpathyFishermanHunterEchoing Soliloquy

You have valid and retarded complains. However the most annoying thing is that you sound butthurt about Domination. Take a break. The game is the same as before and you can still play on Hard and cheese it with your own style.
 

Tygrende

Arbiter
Joined
Aug 2, 2017
Messages
873
your bathroom in SGS
But we don't have one, PC got one of those inferior rooms with no toilet. Not to mention the holes in the rug and fungus growing on the pipe.

Patrick Pierce's room has a toilet and no fungus, he's been dead for months, why couldn't we get his room? Tanner must really hate the PC.



These guys gave me hard fight.

qVgv.png

Top notch moment was when my Aimed Shot from Electroshock Pistol missed frozen target with 95% cth.

:troll:

I can't call it "fight of my life" because e.g. ToME4 has even more difficult tactical decisions, but... there were definitely option.
Won it with Acid Pistol + Electroshock Pistol.
Where's that? I'm guessing it's a random encounter, but can you show which map is it?
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
I have not once said that the fights are unwinnable, did I?

To illustrate my point I recently tried to kill the 3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate. At level 6 this was almost impossible. I tried for times and died for times.

My bad.

Your post proved my point. Cheese your way through the game or wait even more for the right levels where your build gets its crucial feats.
But hey if you think it is fun that almost every character should throw caltrops and molotovs all the time, be my guest. Just do not expect everyone to like it. It also did nothing to refute my actual points, that this shit is tedious, boring, obnoxious and immersion breaking.

Every tactic represents more or less a cheese tactic. That's why you play the game: to cheese the final boss (it's an oversimplification).

I'm no fan of utilities but they represent a valid tactic and unfortunately they are mandatory for Domination until your primary specialization kicks-in.

You are just butthurt that you cannot cheese the game like you used to do it on all the other difficulties. I mean glass cannon cheese is so much superior to dumb utilities cheese. Bleah.

Speaking of crafting, people would not feel the need to invest so hard into it if it were not so overpowered. I played initially without crafting and was just barely hanging in there on my PSI Sniper. Then I shifted some points around and with the ability to craft my own sniper rifles and shields the performance of my character skyrocketed.
Take the unique sniper rifle Dragunov. It is a fine rifle and can carry you into endgame but you will struggle in endgame if you try to rely on it. Now compare it to a well optimized Spearhead. Not only can you get it to even lower AP costs, which in conjunction with the Medicine Pouch lets you use a medicine on top of two shots, you can also add 50%+ extra damage on your Snipe and Aimed Shot due to smart goggles, smart module. The Dragunov cannot compete with a high quality Spearhead in any way. I could make the same comparisons for the AFW and Black Arrow but it would be the same. No rapid reloader and no Smart Module make these unique rifles significantly inferior to crafted ones. This is even worse for shields. The best shields I found were hovering in the 500-600 capacity even at endgame. I can craft 700-800 already around 16. Once I have Power Management this skyrockets to well over 1000-1500 in endgame and I read that it can go beyond 1800. We are talking about a factor of 3-4 for this particular piece of equipment.

Retarded complain. Crafting it's overpowered but that's the point of it in every fucking RPG ever. Asking for a nerf is just retarded.

After all this why did I mention that this is immersion breaking again? Because your character is the only one in the game who can do this. Your character is better than anyone who is a pure craftsman. This is silly. How come the only good items come from you and you alone if you are a craftsman and almost every build I have seen has a substantial amount of points invested into crafting? How come that even if you are at intelligence 5 that your stuff is better than anyone else? It makes no sense. It also undermines choice because while the game can be beat without crafting it is a lot more difficult. I see no reason why there should not be a few high quality craftsmen who demand exorbitant prices for their services. Having such craftsmen who can make such equipment for you could mean that we now have a choice to forgo crafting to some extent. You might still want to do the main items like for example your weapons or psi bands yourself but I see no reason why I should not have the opportunity to pay someone to craft me a nice shield, for an exorbitant price of course if it is a great one.

Valid complain. There should be the possibility to ask a craftsman to craft something for you.

Another immersion breaking problem for me is that the new enemy types are thrown out like any random critter/goon yet they alone can kill you if they catch you off guard. How is this now immersion breaking someone might ask? Because if they can take you out in one round they can do that to anyone not just you. Now recently I went to the Hanging Rat. I saw 6 of the new Goliathuses there, a stone mere throw away from the crossroad leading to the Hanging Rat. This is again immersion breaking since 6 Goliathuses make short work of anyone and pose even a great threat to well prepared high level characters. They are completely out of place there. And the patrons there are all low level. They are not some level 20+ juggernauts who would actually struggle.
There is no way this makes sense. There is also no way this is fun because many characters are reliant on breaking LoS to function. That area has little no LoS on that side. If you are a psionic you can make a force field and with the aid of some traps you can try something but I sincerly doubt that anyone can do those 6 without major cheese and/or high level.

Valid complain. Styg went overboard with mob spawning on Domination.

It also breaks my immersion that the very first crawler you find is of the new and much stronger Death Stalker variety. The first time most people will encounter one will be on a stealth character on his way to the Rat King. For some reason there is now a Death Stalker down there. Many will be between level 8 and 10 when they come there. The only way to beat them at that level is cheese the fuck out of them, by mining or dropping caltrops or playing flare roulette. This is nonsense and again immersion breaking. This is even worse when you get to Core City and do Gorsky's missions. Getting the energy shields can be done by 3 basic routes: Infiltration through the front gate with ID card/armor and persuasion, blowing them up in a tough fight or going through the tunnels under the compound. Now not many builds will have the necessary 70 persuasion to infiltrate the compound so the other two must suffice. Blowing up the compound is not easy. Now you think you can go through the tunnels. Problem? Half a dozen death stalkers with no real warning in game that there is something like them. On hard this is doable for many characters in the level 10-12 range against standard crawlers. Against those though you either have a build which can deal well with them or you cheese the fight, hard.

I don't know about this. Glass cannon doesn't work on Domination.

Lastly a lot of the difficulty can be solved by a simple trick: level up even harder. As someone who plays with Oddity exclusively this means that after Depot A I scour for easy oddities like mad. This in turn though breaks the game flow significantly but it is needed or at the very least recommended. Higher stealth detection can exclusively only countered by higher level since Detection rests solely on level, perception and motion tracking goggles and all builds have to wait for certain core feats which are vital for their success.
To illustrate my point I recently tried to kill the 3 bandits in the hut west of Junkyard gate. At level 6 this was almost impossible. I tried for times and died for times. I could have probably done it with some hard cheese but that was not the point of the test. It was to see how much the new difficulty affected my gameplay. The easiest way to deal with those 3 for me? Wait until level 8 for Snipe and wipe the floor with them. I am not even joking when I say this is the only difference. Simply 1 feat turns a very hard fight into a cake walk. Of course getting those oddities means that I have to make a lot of detours to harvest them. While this is fine and dandy when you are not in the middle of a major quest or on route between settlements. It does feel weird though if you are in the middle of a major quest and feel the need to make a detour in order to tackle its later stages.

You can do almost any shit at any level although lvl 1 runs are probably not possible.

It's true that by lvl 10 you have everything you need in order to finish the game (in my 1st play-through I've reached DC at lvl 18). However asking for less XP/oddities is just stupid because it requires a complete game/encounters redesign.

A better solution would be to increase higher level requirements for overpowered feats like Ambush or Snipe. Look bellow. Everything is grouped around lvl 4-6 while it would be better to "disperse" the feats a little bit.

Feats of Underrail by minimal level and skill requirements. Feats marked with + provide a new ability. For lists by specific attribute/skill, see Category: Feats.

Level 1 (0-15)
ExpertiseNimbleNinja LooterOpportunistPack RathoundParanoiaQuick PocketsRecklessnessSnoopingAimed Shot+ • Armor SlopingBurglarClothierConditioningDoctorFast MetabolismGun NutGunslingerHeavy Punch+ • Hit and RunJuggernautMarksmanPower ManagementSkinnerSprint+ • StoicismSuppressive FireSure StepSurvival InstinctsThick Skull

Level 2 (20)
Corporeal ProjectionDisassembleInterloperPsychosisPummel+ • TranquilityYell+

Level 4 (25-30)
Cerebral TraumaDirty Kick+ • Force UserHigh-TechnicalitiesKneecap Shot+ • Lightning PunchesPoint ShotQuick Tinkering+ • Steadfast AimVile WeaponryWeaponsmithBowyerConcussive ShotsCrippling Strike+ • Escape Artist+ GrenadierMeditationMental SubversionThermodynamicityTrap Expert

Level 6 (35-40)
BallisticsCooked Shot+ • DeflectionHypertoxicityLast Stand+ • NeurologyPractical PhysicistPyromaniacSalesmanSnipe+ AmbushCheap ShotsExpose Weakness+ • Fancy FootworkFull-AutoHypothermiaMad ChemistPinningPremeditation+ • Psychostatic ElectricityUncanny Dodge+ • Wrestling

Level 8 (45-50)
Bone BreakerCryogenic InductionEvasive Maneuvers+ • Fatal ThrowGuardPsionic Mania+ • Rapid Fire+ • RipperSpec OpsSpecial Tactics+ • Taste for BloodThree-Pointer

Level 10 (55-60)
Cut-Throat+ • Telekinetic UndulationBlitz+ • Concentrated FireSharpshooter

Level 12 (65-70)
ComboNeural OverclockingExecute+

Level 14 (75‑80)
Critical PowerDeadly SnaresElemental BoltsLocus of Control+ • Super Slam+ — CommandoEviscerate+ • Split Spare

Level 18 (100)
Heavyweight

Special
Psi EmpathyFishermanHunterEchoing Soliloquy

You have valid and retarded complains. However the most annoying thing is that you sound butthurt about Domination. Take a break. The game is the same as before and you can still play on Hard and cheese it with your own style.

1.) Which part of "almost" was too hard for you to understand? Almost is a clear indicator that it is beatable. It was meant to say that it is hard. Saying that "just use molotov/caltrops for yolo" proves nothing. They are the ultimate cheese which can pave the way for many builds. If your build is reliant constantly on using these your build is shit.
2.) Cheese tactics are lame and boring. If a difficulty requires them for parts, large or small, then the difficulty is shit.
3.) I disagree completely about crafting. Many cRPGs do not even have crafting. Also it is no excuse for it being that op. It constricts builds and reduces viable builds instead of giving alternatives, which is the right thing to do, regardless of difficulty.
4.) Glass cannon works. Glass cannon works because unless you go full tank with high Con and full metal armor many enemy groups can kill you in one round. Dominating changes nothing there it just makes it easier for the enemies to kill you in one round/one stun and makes it more difficult for you to kill them quickly. It seems you read or understood nothing of what we said, especially Pope Amole in his last post.
In fact my glass cannon build works against almost everything but Death Stalker though I can cheese the very few times I meet them if I wished it but that is beside the point. Thing is a game difficulty which requires you to cheese is shit. Everything I saw brought forth by you is "Cheese is fine". Just because it is fine to you does not mean it is fine in general.
5.) Higher requirements for certain feats? What would that solve? Many builds are already reliant on those feats you get around 4-8. Pushing them even farther behind solves nothing of the inherent problems of the new difficulty. Heck for pure Snipers that would make things even worse for them than for me since I can compensate with stuff like Force User and TK PSI. It would also impact Crossbow builds which are already lagging behind many of the more powerful builds even more. Snipe is a great alpha strike/burst ability but nothing more. I see no reason to delay its availability even more.
6.) I am not butthurt. I have sunk in about 500 hours into this game testing out a variety of stealth builds melee and ranged since this is what I like most in this game. I think it is perfectly fine for me to point out that the HP and stat bloat is a bad approach to increae difficulty. I appreciate new enemies and their new abilities but I do disagree with the parts which add nothing but tedium to the game and I am not alone with that opinion. Far from it.
And lastly Dominating IS NOT HARD. It is in part tedious, boring and immersion breaking for no reason other than Styg wanting to spite some "hardcore" players.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
You know, all the new superpowered versions of biological enemies make you wonder about the ones that didn't receive such a version, where's the Abyssal Siphoners that can make Blood Golems out of your siphoned blood? Also they come out of your bathroom in SGS on Dominating.

While it's a funny joke, I would be glad to see some diabolish Siphoner in Expedition at least. :hahano:

Where's that? I'm guessing it's a random encounter, but can you show which map is it?

It's a rescue mission, you saving Hugo's ass from Foundry.
To get this, I guess, you shouldn't tell Faceless near Foundry that you know where the cube is if you got that info from Buzzer.
Instead, you should pick "I don't know" and such, then you'll get that mission.
 

Tygrende

Arbiter
Joined
Aug 2, 2017
Messages
873
It's a rescue mission, you saving Hugo's ass from Foundry.
To get this, I guess, you shouldn't tell Faceless near Foundry that you know where the cube is if you got that info from Buzzer.
Instead, you should pick "I don't know" and such, then you'll get that mission.
Right. It's been a while since I went that route, completly forgot about it.
 

ciox

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 9, 2016
Messages
1,322
your bathroom in SGS
But we don't have one, PC got one of those inferior rooms with no toilet. Not to mention the holes in the rug and fungus growing on the pipe.

Patrick Pierce's room has a toilet and no fungus, he's been dead for months, why couldn't we get his room? Tanner must really hate the PC.
Really I should have checked, well I would have made the joke anyway but Underrail has so many toilets I thought the PC had one, the game follows the rule of making sure people have access to basic necessities in settlements relatively well.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,155
1.) Which part of "almost" was too hard for you to understand? Almost is a clear indicator that it is beatable. It was meant to say that it is hard. Saying that "just use molotov/caltrops for yolo" proves nothing. They are the ultimate cheese which can pave the way for many builds. If your build is reliant constantly on using these your build is shit.
2.) Cheese tactics are lame and boring. If a difficulty requires them for parts, large or small, then the difficulty is shit.
3.) I disagree completely about crafting. Many cRPGs do not even have crafting. Also it is no excuse for it being that op. It constricts builds and reduces viable builds instead of giving alternatives, which is the right thing to do, regardless of difficulty.
4.) Glass cannon works. Glass cannon works because unless you go full tank with high Con and full metal armor many enemy groups can kill you in one round. Dominating changes nothing there it just makes it easier for the enemies to kill you in one round/one stun and makes it more difficult for you to kill them quickly. It seems you read or understood nothing of what we said, especially Pope Amole in his last post.
In fact my glass cannon build works against almost everything but Death Stalker though I can cheese the very few times I meet them if I wished it but that is beside the point. Thing is a game difficulty which requires you to cheese is shit. Everything I saw brought forth by you is "Cheese is fine". Just because it is fine to you does not mean it is fine in general.
5.) Higher requirements for certain feats? What would that solve? Many builds are already reliant on those feats you get around 4-8. Pushing them even farther behind solves nothing of the inherent problems of the new difficulty. Heck for pure Snipers that would make things even worse for them than for me since I can compensate with stuff like Force User and TK PSI. It would also impact Crossbow builds which are already lagging behind many of the more powerful builds even more. Snipe is a great alpha strike/burst ability but nothing more. I see no reason to delay its availability even more.
6.) I am not butthurt. I have sunk in about 500 hours into this game testing out a variety of stealth builds melee and ranged since this is what I like most in this game. I think it is perfectly fine for me to point out that the HP and stat bloat is a bad approach to increae difficulty. I appreciate new enemies and their new abilities but I do disagree with the parts which add nothing but tedium to the game and I am not alone with that opinion. Far from it.
And lastly Dominating IS NOT HARD. It is in part tedious, boring and immersion breaking for no reason other than Styg wanting to spite some "hardcore" players.

1) I already said "my bad" as I admitted about being wrong.
2) I agree. Cheese tactic is lame and boring but I have one question: How do you define what is cheese and what is not? What is the difference between one-shooting Tchort with a sniper rifle and a cheese tactic?
3) Crafting in Underrail is optional. You can finish the game with sub-optimal builds.
4) Glass cannon doesn't work in Domination exact for the reasons described by you - "it just makes it easier for the enemies to kill you in one round/one stun and makes it more difficult for you to kill them quickly." That was the purpose of Domination difficulty. So, what's the problem?
5) Higher requirements for feats would have the following advantages: (1) it's easy to implement, (2) you can look forward to evolve your character after lvl 8 and (3) you will have to adapt and kill the thugs at lvl 6 because you certainly don't want to comeback at lvl 12 or lvl 14 (for example). It basically postpone tactic flatlining after lvl 10-12.
6) I agree on HP bloat. Domination difficulty should not exist but now that it exists you should contemplate the option of ignoring it.

To be honest, both you and Pope Amole II have good points but be realistic about. Tell me one game that still surprises you after 500hours? Come on. Every experience has a lifetime.

Bottom line: The base game is still there. Domination difficulty is experimental and it's probably broken it some places (maybe the Death Stalker). But you can ignore it. Play on hard and have fun.
 
Last edited:

Iluvcheezcake

Prophet
Joined
Aug 27, 2014
Messages
1,679
Location
Le Balkans
After the expansion hits and things settle down maybe Styg could hire a additional writer and completely revamp the story including the starting part as well (not on the game mechanic side ofc) - for example the psionic background could be expanded (i.e. a vignette for it when your powers manifest, instead of the silly pill yes/no), the crafting aptitude (grandparents workshop for example), firing range for weapons, acrobatics, stealth, etc.... That would only add additional atmosphere to a already atmosphere rich game and make it stronger than just combat. The usage of mercantile to unlock additional stock is a step in the right direction.
THEN wrapping all that into a REMASTERED or DIRECTORS CUT or whatever for additional sales and exposure.
I would buy the shit out of that.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
1.) Which part of "almost" was too hard for you to understand? Almost is a clear indicator that it is beatable. It was meant to say that it is hard. Saying that "just use molotov/caltrops for yolo" proves nothing. They are the ultimate cheese which can pave the way for many builds. If your build is reliant constantly on using these your build is shit.
2.) Cheese tactics are lame and boring. If a difficulty requires them for parts, large or small, then the difficulty is shit.
3.) I disagree completely about crafting. Many cRPGs do not even have crafting. Also it is no excuse for it being that op. It constricts builds and reduces viable builds instead of giving alternatives, which is the right thing to do, regardless of difficulty.
4.) Glass cannon works. Glass cannon works because unless you go full tank with high Con and full metal armor many enemy groups can kill you in one round. Dominating changes nothing there it just makes it easier for the enemies to kill you in one round/one stun and makes it more difficult for you to kill them quickly. It seems you read or understood nothing of what we said, especially Pope Amole in his last post.
In fact my glass cannon build works against almost everything but Death Stalker though I can cheese the very few times I meet them if I wished it but that is beside the point. Thing is a game difficulty which requires you to cheese is shit. Everything I saw brought forth by you is "Cheese is fine". Just because it is fine to you does not mean it is fine in general.
5.) Higher requirements for certain feats? What would that solve? Many builds are already reliant on those feats you get around 4-8. Pushing them even farther behind solves nothing of the inherent problems of the new difficulty. Heck for pure Snipers that would make things even worse for them than for me since I can compensate with stuff like Force User and TK PSI. It would also impact Crossbow builds which are already lagging behind many of the more powerful builds even more. Snipe is a great alpha strike/burst ability but nothing more. I see no reason to delay its availability even more.
6.) I am not butthurt. I have sunk in about 500 hours into this game testing out a variety of stealth builds melee and ranged since this is what I like most in this game. I think it is perfectly fine for me to point out that the HP and stat bloat is a bad approach to increae difficulty. I appreciate new enemies and their new abilities but I do disagree with the parts which add nothing but tedium to the game and I am not alone with that opinion. Far from it.
And lastly Dominating IS NOT HARD. It is in part tedious, boring and immersion breaking for no reason other than Styg wanting to spite some "hardcore" players.

1) I already said "my bad" as I admitted about being wrong.
2) I agree. Cheese tactic is lame and boring but I have one question: How do you define what is cheese and what is not? What is the difference between one-shooting Tchort with a sniper rifle and a cheese tactic?
3) Crafting in Underrail is optional. You can finish the game with sub-optimal builds.
4) Glass cannon doesn't work in Domination exact for the reasons described by you - "it just makes it easier for the enemies to kill you in one round/one stun and makes it more difficult for you to kill them quickly." That was the purpose of Domination difficulty. So, what's the problem?
5) Higher requirements for feats would have the following advantages: (1) it's easy to implement, (2) you can look forward to evolve your character after lvl 8 and (3) you will have to adapt and kill the thugs at lvl 6 because you certainly don't want to comeback at lvl 12 or lvl 14 (for example). It basically postpone tactic flatlining after lvl 10-12.
6) I agree on HP bloat. Domination difficulty should not exist but now that it exist you should contemplate the option of ignoring it.

To be honest, both you and Pope Amole II have good points but be realistic about. Tell me one game that still surprises you after 500hours? Come on. Every experience has a lifetime.

Bottom line: The base game is still there. Domination difficulty is experimental and it's probably broken it some places (maybe the Death Stalker). But you can ignore it. Play on hard and have fun.

1.) Cheese depends somewhat on the game but here it is easy: If the item gives you great benefit without any real investment and to top it all off is almost brain dead to use. Both molotov and caltrops, especially crawler poison caltrops are plentyful and cheap to acquire and can beat many encounters you would normally struggle with by other means. The worst that can happen that you miss the mark badly but even in those cases it is often enough to hit them somewhat. In very rare cases you might hit yourself but if you throw them far enough away the chance is miniscule.
Compare these two to bear traps. Bear traps are also pretty easy to use and cheap. The difference?They are single target, root only and a badly placed bear trap gets disarmed or the enemy won't walk into them. Bear traps require some smarts, planning and foresight in comparison to caltrops and molotovs.
2.) You just said what I said. The game can be beaten without crafting. The difference though? I dare say that you operate at half the effectiveness of any comparable build which at the very least has electronics and mechanics for example. I even gave up on dodge and evasion. The benefit from super strong shields far outweighs the few hits I might dodge on occasion and it frees up two feat slots by forgoing "Uncanny Dodge" and "Evasive Maneuvers".
How much better is it? One of the best sniper rifle types are Spearheads. These cannot be bought only crafted. The closest you can get is the Dragunov. Once you have decent quality though the Dragunov pales in comparison. Why?
The base damage is significantly higher at quality over 100 which is not hard to get. You can add 50% crit damage. You can add 35%+ damage on Aimed Shot and Snipe. You can lower the AP cost to 24. Only 1 less you say? Well then combine it with Medicine Pouch belt and still be able to pop a stim after a Snipe+Aimed Shot combo.
I can say with confidence that a well build high quality Spearhead will outperform a Dragunov by a factor of at least 1.5 if not 2. Shields are even worse. As mentioned earlier you will be hardpressed to find shields well beyond 500, maybe low 600s if that. High quality shields with Power Management can break 1500+. Up to triple of what you can find or buy.
Then there are certain items like Cloaking Device which cannot be bought at all and are a great addition for any stealth and/or evasion/dodge build. Tasers are cheap 1 round stun devices. The goggles you can create are usually by a factor of 25% better on top of having significantly higher capacity. The benefit far outweights the cost. So much that they are superior to any other potential complementary skill to your main skill (guns, crossbows, melee, throwing or psi).
3.) Ok since it did not sink in what Pope Amole and I said I say it again: Glass cannons work and I have yet to see any proof that it was intended by Styg to fuck over a specific type of build.
4.) Changing availability for certain feats would drastically fuck over certain builds which are already on the weaker side. Crossbows come to mind. If you want to disperse them more, then you have to change the encounter designs to acknowledge that especially on Dominating unless you want people to rely even more on cheese.
5.) If "Autistic" continues to exist until after the release of the expansion I will for sure ignore this retarded shit. Until then, I will play it as a beta tester and will voice my opinion about it as obnoxiously as "Autistic" is.
 
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Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
That fight I was just being lucky - at leat partially, since my opener AS from EP missed as usual. :negative:

qaQr.png

I suspected that someone was in stealth there, but coudn't manage to detect him. So, I stat fight, and on second turn ran for crossbowman to finish him, and right on tile next to me bumped into (right? into or in?) Assasin, and with this knife
qaU7.png
he would cut me to salad. And even without it.
Judging by their hp numbers - from 160 to 420 - they were mobs for early level fight, thou I don't know, I have difficulties to detect even when I know where to look.
Assasins are absolutely devastating, even Cut-Throats are - barely survived his attack, of course for my 3 Con build.
 
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Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
That fight I was just being lucky - at leat partically, since my opener AS from EP missed as usual. :negative:

qaQr.png

I suspected that someone was in stealth there, but coudn't manage to detect him. So, I stat fight, and on second turn ran for crossbowman to finish him, and right on tile next to me bumped into (right? into or in?) Assasin, and with this knife
qaU7.png
he would cut me to salad. And even without it.
Judging by their hp numbers - from 160 to 420 - they were mobs for early level fight, thou I don't know, I have difficulties to detect even when I know where to look.
Assasins are absolutely devastating, even Cut-Throats are - barely survived his attack, of course for my 3 Con build.

Base detection is influenced by two values only, level and perception. You are using pistols, I guess your dexterity is high and your perception is in the middle region, 6-8?
 

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