Developer Story Time with Old Man Davis

[abnaxus]

Anthony Davis Who were you managed by at Square? By Square Europe (AKA the former Eidos) or directly by Square in Japan?

I remember Feargus mentioning in some interview how (some of) the Square Enix top dogs from Japan visited Obsidian.

 

[Anthony Davis]

Anthony Davis Who were you managed by at Square? By Square Europe (AKA the former Eidos) or directly by Square in Japan?

I remember Feargus mentioning in some interview how (some of) the Square Enix top dogs from Japan visited Obsidian.

Yeah, that was true and pretty cool too.

I think we were involved with all of the Square Enix guys, USA, Europe, and Japan.

 

[Infinitron]

Anthony Davis Who were you managed by at Square? By Square Europe (AKA the former Eidos) or directly by Square in Japan?

I remember Feargus mentioning in some interview how (some of) the Square Enix top dogs from Japan visited Obsidian.

Yeah, that was true and pretty cool too.

I think we were involved with all of the Square Enix guys, USA, Europe, and Japan.

'k. I'm curious for some reason about how these international corporations work. All of Square's wholly owned Western subsidiary developers - Eidos Montreal, the Tomb Raider guys, etc - work underneath Square Europe. I thought maybe a contracted independent Western developer would have worked the same way.

 

[Anthony Davis]

I also realize that I have may have older posts here that now make me sound like either a hypocrite, or a sellout, but the truth is that I just didn't understand as much then as I do now.

Don't get me wrong, i didn't like the KOTOR2 release date getting moved up - which actually I can talk more about now that LucasArts is no more :-(

The original date was ALWAYS Christmas. We were the told the date had been pushed back to February, I do not believe the contract was amended to reflect this new date, it was more of a gentleman's agreement as I understand it. Then when Mercenaries missed their release date, our date was returned to the original date so that LucasArts could release something for Christmas.

We had to cut our expanded content we were working on as a result, and of course time spent on the cut content can never be regained.

Other than that one thing, which we in hindsight we should have maintained scope and focused on polish, LucasArts was pretty awesome to work with. Seriously, great guys.

 

[Infinitron]

I also realize that I have may have older posts here that now make me sound like either a hypocrite, or a sellout, but the truth is that I just didn't understand as much then as I do now.

Well Anthony, basically what we'd like is for the publishers to care as much about game quality as we do. We can sympathize with their bottom line, but to the consumer, the quality of the final product is what matters in the end, right?

So fuck, they should have honored their gentlemen's agreement. Do it for the art, you bastards.

 

[Mrowak]

I also realize that I have may have older posts here that now make me sound like either a hypocrite, or a sellout, but the truth is that I just didn't understand as much then as I do now.

Well Anthony, basically what we'd like is for the publishers to care as much about game quality as we do. We can sympathize with their bottom line, but to the consumer, the quality of the final product is what matters in the end, right?

That's the problem, see... publishers are interested in quality as well, *but* they want the quality in the areas they perceive they will bring them tanglible benefits in one form or another.

So fuck, they should have honored their gentlemen's agreement. Do it for the art, you bastards.

Games are not art. They are not perceived by art neither by publishers, nor by the audience. Even we here did not complain so much about artistic merits of any Obsidian game. Art or lack of it is not the reason why they are largely unpolished.

And quite frankly LA had more pressing concerns than art i.e. staying afloat.

Hmm... This also sheds some light on Alpha Protocol development and why the game largely sucked.

 

[Infinitron]

Games are not art. They are not perceived by art neither by publishers, nor by the audience. Even we here did not complain so much about artistic merits of any Obsidian game. Art or lack of it is not the reason why they are largely unpolished.

That was not meant to be a literal usage of the word "art" and I certainly don't want to get into this debate.

But here:

Do it for the craftsmanship, you bastards.

Happy?

 

[Crooked Bee]

The way I see it, the reason publishers are "evil" is precisely because they run a business and their main concern is maximizing their profit. Nothing wrong with that in itself, of course, but that means they only want developers to make mainstream popamole (or at best "popamolified" like New Vegas) action RPGs that would sell X million copies and score X points at Metacritic. Hence something like Wasteland 2 or Torment 2 only being possible on Kickstarter.

Another problem is the micromanaging publishers that Anthony mentioned. I'm glad Anthony didn't have to work with them, but apparently they do exist.

Other than that, I don't think anyone means publishers are "evil" in any other sense.

 

[Mrowak]

Games are not art. They are not perceived by art neither by publishers, nor by the audience. Even we here did not complain so much about artistic merits of any Obsidian game. Art or lack of it is not the reason why they are largely unpolished.

That was not meant to be a literal usage of the word "art" and I certainly don't want to get into this debate.

But here:

Do it for the craftsmanship, you bastards.

Happy?

That's not the language they would understand - or rather, it would be extremely naive to them. You see, there is a certain degree after no amount of craftsmanship brings benefit: its tantamount to getting the best, solid, beautiful roof the craftsmen worked their utmost for whole year to make... two months after the rainy season when the rain ruined the whole house.

Risk management and overrules other considerations. It's just the reality of business.

 

[Infinitron]

Risk management and overrules other considerations. It's just the reality of business.

As a consumer, I can't accept that excuse. Publishers should learn to cope with rainy days and realize that in the long run, developing a reputation for high quality products is worth it. Making high quality products is their job, it's why they exist.

Anthony Davis says the developers need to learn to adapt to the whims of the publishers. I say the publishers need to learn to adapt too.

 

[mindx2]

*Posting in epic thread*

Seriously, it's been awhile since I actually sat down and read this many pages of a Codex thread and I've enjoyed every page! Surprisingly very little vitriol on any of the post (except for Roquey's creepy stalker-like posts). Thank you Anthony Davis for the insight into Obsidian and the people you interacted with. I'm no wannabe game developer, designer, coder, whatever but I do like hearing about different industries and how they work. Especially one that makes one of my favorite hobbies... cRPGs. It's interesting to hear stories about people who are now working on Project: Enternity since I threw away pledged so much money towards this game. Any more stories about this group would be greatly appreciated. Regardless, you sir are a true Codexian BRO...


KEEP POSTING!!!

 

[Raapys]

Why don't we see more publishers focusing on 'small budget' games though? I.e. in the range of 1-3$million or thereabouts, instead of 10-20$million++? Is the profit margin, percentage-wise, really that much smaller?

 

[Infinitron]

Why don't we see more publishers focusing on 'small budget' games though? I.e. in the range of 1-3$million or thereabouts, instead of 10-20$million++? Is the profit margin, percentage-wise, really that much smaller?

Well, there's Paradox and Stardock. They don't do CRPGs, though.

The strategy genre seems to exist in a separate universe where different rules apply than in the rest of the gaming industry.

 

[Mrowak]

Risk management and overrules other considerations. It's just the reality of business.

As a consumer, I can't fully accept that. Publishers should learn to cope with rainy days and realize that in the long run, developing a reputation for the highest quality is worth it.

In case of KotOR it's Obsidian who lost their reputation, not the publisher.

Anthony Davis says the developers need to learn to adapt to the whims of the publishers. I say the publishers need to learn to adapt too.

But they do - to the whims of the market at least. Hence what Crooked Bee stated takes place. And they do often adapt to the requests of their contractors - the devs. Publishers can provide for them, e.g. time, money, licenses, hardware, software etc. Which frequently happens - as with Sega and Alpha Protocol. Everyone has their limits, however.

It is but natural that they have the upper hand, because they are the ordering party. Imagine you ordered your portrait and the painter, having demanded best canvas, paint, brushes and time (all of which you dully supplied), decided to go all Prosper on you. I wonder what your reaction would be.

 

[Infinitron]

It is but natural that they have the upper hand, because they are the ordering party. Imagine you ordered your portrait and the painter, having demanded best canvas, paint, brushes and time (all of which you dully supplied), decided to go all Prosper on you. I wonder what your reaction would be.

I'd be pissed. However, that's not relevant to this case.

Publishers should allow developers to finish their fucking jobs. This should not be too much to ask.

In case of KotOR it's Obsidian who lost their reputation, not the publisher.

Heh, let me remind you that Obsidian still exists, while LucasArts does not.

 

[Semper]

In 2012 there've been a couple of rumours that Atari/Obsidian might consider releasing the source code for NWN2's modding community

there was a rumor about that? thought it was just a thread at the bioboards where some die hards dreamed about the possibility of working with the source code, and debating if the release of the source would do any good for the community. now that atari is almost defunct, the rights to publish dnd software is tied to hasbro and wizards are getting ready for dnd next there's no way anything will happen to nwn2. plus the rights to aurora, on which electron is heavily based on, belong to bioware/ea, not to mention all the third party plugins like speedtree, facefx, granny, etc... obsidian only added to the code (renderer, functions, outdoor areas).

@anthony: could you shed some light on the nwn2's 1.24 patch? was it really finished and ready for release right before all this dnd/atari-trouble? what was fixed? any secrets about the plans for a third expansion?

 

[Raapys]

Why don't we see more publishers focusing on 'small budget' games though? I.e. in the range of 1-3$million or thereabouts, instead of 10-20$million++? Is the profit margin, percentage-wise, really that much smaller?

Well, there's Paradox and Stardock. They don't do CRPGs, though.

The strategy genre seems to exist in a separate universe where different rules apply than in the rest of the gaming industry.

Yeah, Paradox is awesome. Stardock is...well, they're trying. And there are some other niche stuff like Matrix Games and whatnot. But as you say, it's all strategy. But when we see what some of these guys can do on kickstarter budgets( okay, so we haven't actually played the games yet, but they look good), it seems strange to me that real publishers aren't trying the same.

 

[mindx2]

Publishers should allow developers to finish their fucking jobs. This should not be too much to ask.

I agree with you "as a gamer" but if it were my money invested in a project I might tend to get a little pushy as well.

 

[Infinitron]

Publishers should allow developers to finish their fucking jobs. This should not be too much to ask.

I agree with you "as a gamer" but if it were my money invested in a project I might tend to get a little pushy as well.

Maybe, although it doesn't seem that the Torment KS backers had any problem with the game's release date being pushed forward.

 

[Mrowak]

It is but natural that they have the upper hand, because they are the ordering party. Imagine you ordered your portrait and the painter, having demanded best canvas, paint, brushes and time (all of which you dully supplied), decided to go all Prosper on you. I wonder what your reaction would be.

I'd be pissed. However, that's not relevant to this case.

Publishers should allow developers to finish their fucking jobs. This should not be too much to ask.

Actually it is a lot because as Anthony Davis stated:

All businesses put money first, they have to or they wont stay in business. Sometimes you find companies that put their customers second, and their own people third. Those are usually very good companies. Sounds weird I know, but that is a recipe for a good company.

Sure it would be cool to release the best game ever, but it was obvious it would not help LA at that point so the sacrifice had to be made. It may appear all noble to you to finish the damn game, to but reality was such that because it was no longer beneficial to do so in order to alleviate untold damages to themselves (financial difficulties and lay-offs) it had to be done. The sad reality is - survival is always of top priority.

In case of KotOR it's Obsidian who lost their reputation, not the publisher.

Heh, let me remind you that Obsidian still exists, while LucasArts does not.

Certainly not because of KotOR2.

And Obsidian... will see how well they will manage their own project this time around... without any "evil publisher" to stiffle their creativity

 

[mindx2]

Publishers should allow developers to finish their fucking jobs. This should not be too much to ask.

I agree with you "as a gamer" but if it were my money invested in a project I might tend to get a little pushy as well.

Maybe, although it doesn't seem that the Torment KS backers had any problem with the game's release date being pushed forward.

A couple hundred dollars compared to millions? Big difference. Plus Fargo isn't going to come back and plead for more money from us to keep his doors open... will he...?!

 

[Cosmo]

says the developers need to learn to adapt to the whims of the publishers. I say the publishers need to learn to adapt too.

I'd say Anthony Davis has a very "american" reaction, in that he adheres to the belief that business is the final measure of everything (but it's not because it's a commonly shared opinion that it's not questionable)...
First thing that comes to mind is the simple fact of making games is not capitalistic in itself, and as a young programmer/designer/whatever, i highly doubt that you dream about a job that will allow you to "generate revenue" : you want to be creative and produce somthing enjoyable for you and the audience (at least i hope so).
That being said, of course the selling part and, more importantly, the organization required for the making of modern games are capitalistic ventures. But personally i think it's preferable to accept the inevitable conflict between the creative side and the business one (and live with it) rather than thinking money's always right.

 

[mindx2]

i highly doubt that you dream about a job that will allow you to "generate revenue"

Speak for yourself!!:patriot: ........:D

 

[Infinitron]

It may appear all noble to you to finish the damn game, to but reality was such that because it was no longer beneficial to do so in order to alleviate untold damages to themselves (financial difficulties and lay-offs) it had to be done.

Dude, I don't give a fuck. The problem with "business savvy" gamers like you is that you become so interested in the inner workings of the gaming industry that you end up aligning yourselves, knowingly or not, with a party whose interests aren't aligned with those of gamers.

I understand that LucasArts had problems, but that doesn't concern me. As far as I'm concerned, they didn't do their job by allowing the game to be released unfinished. The gamer always comes first. Period.

 

[Cosmo]

At least publishers should understand that you don't deal with dense, content and narrative-heavy games like you would with yesterday's popamole...