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Incline Disco Elysium - The Final Cut - a hardboiled cop show isometric RPG

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
13,086
Considering its barely an RPG with NO real combat... it has to have this. I'd liken this to an adventure game where various decisions have different consequences. It is a tad more complicated but thats the gist I get out of all the DE chatter. I won't know until I own and play it.
 

perfectslumbers

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 24, 2021
Messages
1,198
Tbh the skill checks were my least favourite part of the game since they just served to massively delay progress and to force you to scrounge around for xp or items. The non repeatable ones were generally better since you could keep going on with the game if you failed
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,836
Tell me, what's the point of a game with skill checks if there are thousands of skill check to perform, for every mundane thing you do? On of the 12 different objects and NPCs in a room?

It's not a game anymore, it's insanity. It's pretentious wankery.
In short: because you are limited in what you can see or experience by what you... can see or experience. Some of it will be utterly mundane (such as noticing the birds flying when looking out the window with Perception or getting some non-practical bits from the Encyclopedia), but that's how senses work.
 

Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
Right so, deep into a Body / Motorics playthrough, and I've got some observations. Spoilery ones.

Oh, and they're long winded and somewhat disjointed, apologies.

The deeper I dig into the game, the more I get the feeling that Fascism was the most thought-about and best implemented ideology, and this is unsatisfying. Not in a "game's bad, nerd rant on codex time!" kind of way, but enough to devote a RL thought cabinet slot to pondering it. Because it does bring some implications in about the game as a whole, and coupled with some other stuff kinda ends up bringing the game down a bit.

The way it works is that the first misconception about how Fascism works in the game is that it's a muscleman's ideology, as Endurance is what prompts you to do it, and because Measurehead is a muscleman. The way it's actually implemented is *very* true to life and well observed. It's got more to do with "Conceptualization" and some of the psyche skills like Volition and Authority. What happens if you take a muscleman and become fascist is that fascism, as opposed to other ideologies, is tied to an actual mechanic in the game, namely drugs, and this screws you over.

Alcohol raises your physical stats, and damages your morale. The fascist thought Revacholian Nationhood, makes Alcohol raise your physical even more, but makes taking fascist dialogue options damage your morale. And your morale is likely to not be very high. It makes perfect sense that Measurehead would be an anti-alcohol zealot, and through him, Fascism gets another thought. He doesn't need alcohol, he went and made himself into what he considers an ubermensch. This is also why his fascist quest talk ends up being "strangely" reasonable. If the player goes muscleman, it becomes hard to roleplay a fascist because there's not much in the way of benefit, and the game's more likely to push you towards ultraliberal dialogues, because those give money, and money helps buy stuff, and stuff boosts stats that you're lacking in. Being a muscleman fascist mostly ends up damaging your morale a lot.

This means that the guy most likely to want to be a fascist is more of a physically and otherwise unremarkable nerdy type with more volition than he knows what to do with and more ambition than is healthy. Which is absolutely true to life, it is the go to ideology of frustrated dorks. High conceptualization, high volition, chip on their shoulder. In game this would make someone who uses booze to help them roleplay Hjemdallerman despite not actually being a muscleman. This is supported by game mechanics, reflected by other fascists, and it makes a fascist playthrough just blow every other ideological approach out of the water when it comes to implementation (and relevant content).

Where it leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that it kinda points towards the writers giving fascism a lot of thought, and fascist a lot of sympathy and deeper understanding. Yes, you've got Kim there to make sure to point out that being a fascist is contemptible, repulsive and sad, sure, but ultraliberals, communists and even moralists get nothing even close to this level of depth, mechanical integration and having thought put into them.

Moralists are just plain evil - they'll present you with a shit state of affairs, and tell you everything's fine. It's not wonder that Kim, ostensibly a moralist or former moralist, is visibly slipping towards the left (even if he's trying to cover it). Anyone who sees things as they are and cares more about society than his own baggage or situation in life is just going to be pushed towards the left, even if slightly. There's nothing mechanically appealing to being a moralist in the game, it's just a "don't get involved" option, and it lacks depth.

Ultraliberals in the game take a road between moralism and fascism, as they do in real life, where they take a shit situation, cross out effectively changing it as an option or even something they care to do, and try to make the best for themselves personally. Still, it's mechanical backing is very mystical - money just appears out of thin air if you follow the party line. It's unrealistic, straight up beneficial, and doesn't say much about who you are as a person. So it's like the opposite of moralism, moralism only says who you are (or rather, that you don't want to be anybody noticeable), but has no mechanical backing, and ultraliberalism is just mechanics with no psychology, because if money didn't appear out of thin air for them they'd all just be Plaisance (a deluded and very well written caricature of a kind of person you can meet in real life, where they're RL caricatures). And if anything other than roleplaying a hustler gave money when you clicked on options, people would be clicking that.

And then you have communism. And communism in this game is a mess. People think it's a very communist-friendly game, but that's mostly because communism is a demonized, taboo topic in the west, and just seeing it talked about, opted into and such is probably mind-blowingly exotic to them. The west, and US in particular, have made such a boogey man of communism, or even leftish socialism, that just being able to say the word or acknowledge that it meant something positive to someone feels like a big deal. And the way it was implemented in thought form is true to life - it's the only one of the ideologies that can point at the state of affairs, call it what it is, and then not say "go with the flow" or invent fantastical problems to go struggle with instead of the real problems (or excuses to not approach the problem seriously enough). Even if "mazovian socio-economics" isn't a solution, or isn't a solution you can single-handedly bring about to check it's efficacy, it makes you a "very smat boy making accurate models of the world".

The problem is that the mechanic (you get some XP for chosing hard-left options) is both lame (senselessly spouting hard-left slogans does not make you a "very smart oy making accurate models of the world"), and overshadowed by other "you get XP" mechanical options, and other than that you get nothing. And the leftists in the game don't really work - Manana's just an opportunist, Cindy's just an annoying kid, you couldn't identify them as "communists" the way you can identify subscribers to other ideologies. The students are accurate caricatures of the university left, sure, but they had to be added to the game at a later date just to give you something even resembling a communist to even have people to talk to for the quest. And Evrart is played up as a mob boss for too long and so hard that it makes someone trying to play a communist feel like the way to be a communist is to oppose HIM as hard as possible. Evrarts "reveal" is actually good, and it is very communist, because a true communist sees that the state of affairs IS shit, and that things won't change without a drastic shodown. Despite having every opportunity to fit into the system - you can initially see him as just another corrupt moralist or an ultraliberal hustler selling fake leftism - he ends up being an accelerationist, and this is nice, but feels like too little, too late.

So, communism actually gets the short end of the stick, and makes me feel like the writers actually get it a lot less than they get the other stuff (even if they write ultraliberalism off as a joke a lot, but, really, what else do you do with it?).

The part where this ends up making me feel kinda dissappointed is that the whole "I wanted a blonde, blonde woman left me, so I became a drunk and can't let it go" is the plot of every Yugo-Graad neo-folk song. It cheapens Harry a lot, it's extremely vulgar taste, and it plays into the whole fascist outlook hard. The story ends up not being about a possibly interesting guy going mad from the stress of dealing with a messed up reality, it ends up being a story of a guy who can't get over a blonde woman. Which, from RL Graad perspective is pretty much the pinnacle of a bottom-of-the-barrel-lowbrow-no-imagination-no-taste cliche imaginable.

The whole "blonde fetish" thing is just messed up in relation to Eastern Erope all on it's own. And with Klaasje also being fetishized by just about anyone who meets her, it comes across as saying more about the writers than it doess about Harry, as it seems to be taken very seriously, while being heavier roasting material than some of the stuff being roasted. Being this heavy into blonde women and ascribing them the ability to "compromize all your senses" or give you a decade long progressive breakdown spiral is... Just wrong. Stereotypically wrong.

Here's how it works. First thing is, Slavs, abundant in northern parts of Eastern Europe, are fairly often blonde. Celts, also quietly present in southern parts of Central and Southeastern Europe are also fairly commonly blond (or even ginger, quite a bunch of those between Austria and Yugo-Graad). So they're not exotic enough, to the point that being this much into them can make you come off as ethno-centric, with overtones you could get if you wrote a post-Nazi German obsessing over blondeness. But then, at the same time, obsessing over blond people is also a mark of colonial slave-mentality in Eastern European countries, especially southern ones, where women obsessively dying their hair blond ("to look like Germans!", rl quote from a lady excitedly explaining why she does it) can at times reach "black people feeling forced to straighten their hair" levels of disturbing.

So, a Harry who has "scored" an uptown extra-blond scandinavian-looking uberfrau, and had his life spiral out of control trying to keep her and can't get over her, and is drooling over a rather cookie-cutter Dutch magazine-cover girl, doesn't leave much room to place him anywhere interesting or exceptional. Or anywhere outside of what the game terms fascist, not completely inaccurately as it's often part of that mentality in RL, at least in parts of the world where the lead writer's from.

If I take that, and the effort that was put into exploring what the game calls "fascism", I get quite a bit disappointed with the whole thing. It's not that blondes can't or shouldn't be attractive, it's that that part of the game is taken waaaaaay too reverently. If you don't subscribe to "blond = pinnacle of perfection" mentality, you just can't take people drooling over Klaasje seriously, and you definitely can't see Harry's whole backstory as worthwhile. Any random shivers flashback has more nuance and worth in it than "guy fell for a girl who was blond AF, apparently mostly because she was blond AF, it fell apart, he spends the next 6 years trying to kill himself". And like, every time he doesn't clown it up, most people around him are either impressed with him, in awe, terrified, scared, he's all kinds of competent and interesting (if disfunctional), but he still only wants that one girl? What the actual hell, any number of things he's been involved with in his life would've been better reasons to fall to pieces over.

Just imagine if the story took place in the US, and Harry was a black guy, and his ex was a white girl. The whole thing in the game is pretty much the "kojko" equivalent of that, just written with no apparent self awareness on the part of the writers. If you play the game with your wife, like I did, all the Klaasje and Dora stuff goes well beyond cringe comedy and into unfunny uncomforable. A black protagonist having the same reaction to Klaasje, or the same story with Dora, would be a realy messed up and unrelateable racist caricature. And for us kojkos, it's even more messed up because it manages to hit both "where da white women at" and the white supremacist brown notes at the same time.

So there, stuff to chew on, and hope the next game features a Harry that turns out to be a less shallow person. Or, rather, if the next game's protagonist, be it Harry or whoever, gets constantly roasted about being a shallow, bi-curious semi-autist manchild, I hope he doesn't get roasted for everything except *THE* most shallow part of his identity. Becasue as is, Harry's story with his ex is not-quite-but-not-very-far-from a more lovingly written Racist Lorry Driver with more screen time, and inexplicably played for drama. And that's disappointing.
 
Last edited:

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
618
Right so, deep into a Body / Motorics playthrough, and I've got some observations. Spoilery ones.

Oh, and they're long winded and somewhat disjointed, apologies.

The deeper I dig into the game, the more I get the feeling that Fascism was the most thought-about and best implemented ideology, and this is unsatisfying. Not in a "game's bad, nerd rant on codex time!" kind of way, but enough to devote a RL thought cabinet slot to pondering it. Because it does bring some implications in about the game as a whole, and coupled with some other stuff kinda ends up bringing the game down a bit.

The way it works is that the first misconception about how Fascism works in the game is that it's a muscleman's ideology, as Endurance is what prompts you to do it, and because Measurehead is a muscleman. The way it's actually implemented is *very* true to life and well observed. It's got more to do with "Conceptualization" and some of the psyche skills like Volition and Authority. What happens if you take a muscleman and become fascist is that fascism, as opposed to other ideologies, is tied to an actual mechanic in the game, namely drugs.

Alcohol raises your physical stats, and damages your morale. The fascist thought Revacholian Nationhood, makes Alcohol raise your physical even more, but makes taking fascist dialogue options damage your morale. And your morale is likely to not be very high. It makes perfect sense that Measurehead would be an anti-alcohol zealot, and through him, Fascism gets another thought. He doesn't need alcohol, he went and made himself into what he considers an ubermensch. This is also why his fascist quest talk ends up being "strangely" reasonable. If the player goes muscleman, it becomes hard to roleplay a fascist because there's not much in the way of benefit, and the game's more likely to push you towards ultraliberal dialogues, because those give money, and money helps buy stuff, and stuff boosts stats that you're lacking in. Being a muscleman fascist mostly ends up damaging your morale a lot.

This means that the guy most likely to want to be a fascist is more of a physically and otherwise unremarkable nerdy type with more volition than he knows what to do with and more ambition than is healthy. Which is absolutely true to life, it is the go to ideology of frustrated dorks. High conceptualization, high volition, chip on their shoulder. In game this would make someone who uses booze to help them roleplay Hjemdallerman despite not actually being a muscleman. This is supported by game mechanics, reflected by other fascists, and it makes a fascist playthrough just blow every other ideological approach out of the water when it comes to implementation (and relevant content).

Where it leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that it kinda points towards the writers giving fascism a lot of thought, and fascist a lot of sympathy and deeper understanding. Yes, you've got Kim there to make sure to point out that being a fascist is contemptible, repulsive and sad, sure, but ultraliberals, communists and even moralists get nothing even close to this level of depth, mechanical integration and having thought put into them.

Moralists are just plain evil - they'll present you with a shit state of affairs, and tell you everything's fine. It's not wonder that Kim, ostensibly a moralist or former moralist, is visibly slipping towards the left (even if he's trying to cover it). Anyone who sees things as they are and cares more about society than his own baggage or situation in life is just going to be pushed towards the left, even if slightly. There's nothing mechanically appealing to being a moralist in the game, it's just a "don't get involved" option, and it lacks depth.

Ultraliberals in the game take a road between moralism and fascism, as they do in real life, where they take a shit situation, cross out effectively changing it as an option or even something they care to do, and try to make the best for themselves personally. Still, it's mechanical backing is very mystical - money just appears out of thin air if you follow the party line. It's unrealistic, straight up beneficial, and doesn't say much about who you are as a person. So it's like the opposite of moralism, moralism only says who you are (or rather, that you don't want to be anybody noticeable), but has no mechanical backing, and ultraliberalism is just mechanics with no psychology, because if money didn't appear out of thin air for them they'd all just be Plaisance (a deluded and very well written caricature of a kind of person you can meet in real life, where they're RL caricatures). And if anything other than roleplaying a hustler gave money when you clicked on options, people would be clicking that.

And then you have communism. And communism in this game is a mess. People think it's a very communist-friendly game, but that's mostly because communism is a demonized, taboo topic in the west, and just seeing it talked about, opted into and such is probably mind-blowingly exotic to them. The west, and US in particular, have made such a boogey man of communism, or even leftish socialism, that just being able to say the word or acknowledge that it meant something positive to someone feels like a big deal. And the way it was implemented in thought form is true to life - it's the only one of the ideologies that can point at the state of affairs, call it what it is, and then not say "go with the flow" or invent fantastical problems to go struggle with instead of the real problems (or excuses to not approach the problem seriously enough). Even if "mazovian socio-economics" isn't a solution, or isn't a solution you can single-handedly bring about to check it's efficacy, it makes you a "very smat boy making accurate models of the world".

The problem is that the mechanic (you get some XP for chosing hard-left options) is both lame (senselessly spouting hard-left slogans does not make you a "very smart oy making accurate models of the world"), and overshadowed by other "you get XP" mechanical options, and other than that you get nothing. And the leftists in the game don't really work - Manana's just an opportunist, Cindy's just an annoying kid, you couldn't identify them as "communists" the way you can identify subscribers to other ideologies. The students are accurate caricatures of the university left, sure, but they had to be added to the game at a later date just to give you something even resembling a communist to even have people to talk to for the quest. And Evrart is played up as a mob boss for too long and so hard that it makes someone trying to play a communist feel like the way to be a communist is to oppose HIM as hard as possible. Evrarts "reveal" is actually good, and it is very communist, because a true communist sees that the state of affairs IS shit, and that things won't change without a drastic shodown. Despite having every opportunity to fit into the system - you can initially see him as just another corrupt moralist or an ultraliberal hustler selling fake leftism - he ends up being an accelerationist, and this is nice, but feels like too little, too late.

So, communism actually gets the short end of the stick, and makes me feel like the writers actually get it a lot less than they get the other stuff (even if they write ultraliberalism off as a joke a lot, but, really, what else do you do with it?).

The part where this ends up making me feel kinda dissappointed is that the whole "I wanted a blonde, blonde woman left me, so I became a drunk and can't let it go" is the plot of every Yugo-Graad neo-folk song. It cheapens Harry a lot, it's extremely vulgar taste, and it plays into the whole fascist outlook hard. The story ends up not being about a possibly interesting guy going mad from the stress of dealing with a messed up reality, it ends up being a story of a guy who can't get over a blonde woman. Which, from RL Graad perspective is pretty much the pinnacle of a bottom-of-the-barrel-lowbrow-no-imagination-no-taste cliche imaginable.

The whole "blonde fetish" thing is just messed up in relation to Eastern Erope all on it's own. And with Klaasje also being fetishized by just about anyone who meets her, it comes across as saying more about the writers than it doess about Harry, as it seems to be taken very seriously, while being heavier roasting material than some of the stuff being roasted. Being this heavy into blonde women and ascribing them the ability to "compromize all your senses" or give you a decade long progressive breakdown spiral is... Just wrong. Stereotypically wrong.

Here's how it works. First thing is, Slavs, abundant in northern parts of Eastern Europe, are fairly often blonde. Celts, also quietly present in southern parts of Central and Southeastern Europe are also fairly commonly blond (or even ginger, quite a bunch of those between Austria and Yugo-Graad). So they're not exotic enough, to the point that being this much into them can make you come off as ethno-centric, with overtones you could get if you wrote a post-Nazi German obsessing over blondeness. But then, at the same time, obsessing over blond people is also a mark of colonial slave-mentality in Eastern European countries, especially southern ones, where women obsessively dying their hair blond ("to look like Germans!", rl quote from a lady excitedly explaining why she does it) can at times reach "black people feeling forced to straighten their hair" levels of disturbing.

So, a Harry who has "scored" an uptown extra-blond scandinavian-looking uberfrau, and had his life spiral out of control trying to keep her and can't get over her, and is drooling over a rather cookie-cutter Dutch magazine-cover girl, doesn't leave much room to place him anywhere interesting or exceptional. Or anywhere outside of what the game terms fascist, not completely inaccurately as it's often part of that mentality in RL, at least in parts of the world where the lead writer's from.

If I take that, and the effort that was put into exploring what the game calls "fascism", I get quite a bit disappointed with the whole thing. It's not that blondes can't or shouldn't be attractive, it's that that part of the game is taken waaaaaay too reverently. If you don't subscribe to "blond = pinnacle of perfection" mentality, you just can't take people drooling over Klaasje seriously, and you definitely can't see Harry's whole backstory as worthwhile. Any random shivers flashback has more nuance and worth in it than "guy fell for a girl who was blond AF, apparently mostly because she was blond AF, it fell apart, he spends the next 6 years trying to kill himself". And like, every time he doesn't clown it up, most people around him are either impressed with him, in awe, terrified, scared, he's all kinds of competent and interesting (if disfunctional), but he still only wants that one girl? What the actual hell, any number of things he's been involved with in his life would've been better reasons to fall to pieces over.

Just imagine if the story took place in the US, and Harry was a black guy, and his ex was a white girl. The whole thing in the game is pretty much the "kojko" equivalent of that, just written with no apparent self awareness on the part of the writers. If you play the game with your wife, like I did, all the Klaasje and Dora stuff goes well beyond cringe comedy and into unfunny uncomforable. A black protagonist having the same reaction to Klaasje, or the same story with Dora, would be a realy messed up and unrelateable racist caricature. And for us kojkos, it's even more messed up because it manages to hit both "where da white women at" and the white supremacist brown notes at the same time.

So there, stuff to chew on, and hope the next game features a Harry that turns out to be a less shallow person. Or, rather, if the next game's protagonist, be it Harry or whoever, gets constantly roasted about being a shallow, bi-curious semi-autist manchild, I hope he doesn't get roasted for everything except *THE* most shallow part of his identity. Becasue as is, Harry's story with his ex is not-quite-but-not-very-far-from a more lovingly written Racist Lorry Driver with more screen time, and inexplicably played for drama. And that's disappointing.
983.png

I feel like I took crazy pills reading the second part of your post. Dora and Klasjee being blonde aren't founding pillars of their characters, it's just something that might help you draw the point across that they might as well look like models. Harry, as far as we know, isn't obsessed with Dora because she's super hot like Jean implies (someone who has never actually meet her, he only saw a picture of her), but because in a world that's completely gone to shit and soon to end, in either a dead-end job or one where he has to see the worst of the worst every single day, she makes him feel HOPE. And then the relationship fell apart, never to return. Harry has nothing else. He's an alcoholic junkie. His body is failing him. He's severely mentally ill at best. His coworkers only tolerate him (barely) because he's literally overworking himself to death in order to produce outstanding results. He knows how shit the state of the world is and, unless you go ultralib and succeed in his quest to get filthy rich, every single ideology he follows is either dead and buried or completely ignores him. And as said before, the love of his life, the one thing made it worth it for him, left him and rejected a future with him. You get this spelled at the end of the game by Trant, and while you can decide for yourself if this is true or not, I think it could very well apply to most interpretations of why Harry decided to forget it all. It has very little to do with Dora being blonde.
 

Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
A different perspective on the second half of my post.

I wish I could come out of the experience feeling like that about it. It seems that this is what the devs were going for, for sure.

I just feel like them being blond being "just something that might help you draw the point oacross that they might as well look like models" is painfuly lazy and lowbrow compared to a lot of other stuff in the game. There's just so little to justify everyone being obsessed with Klaasje, even if you take into account that Harry might be smitten because she reminds him of Dora. And it feel like a complete bummer and letdown that what was giving Harry hope ammounts to a woman who's point of attraction seems to be... she's blond.

If the whole thing didn't rub me the wrong way in conjunction with the other stuff about ideologies, I could just say that I'm seriously dissatisfied with the way female characters were written, I guess. And it does produce some unfortunate implications, possibly completely by accident, but it leaves a really bad taste in a game that was made by folks who demonstrably could've done better.

Just imagine Harry being a black guy and at the end painfully reminiscing about his "snow whelkin". It's almost nearly as awkward.
 
Last edited:

KVVRR

Learned
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
618
A different perspective on the second half of my post.

I wish I could come out of the experience feeling like that about it.

I just feel like them being blond being "just something that might help you draw the point oacross that they might as well look like models" is painfuly lazy and lowbrow compared to a lot of other stuff in the game. There's just so little to justify everyone being obsessed with Klaasje, even if you take into account that Harry might be smitten because she reminds him of Dora. And it feel like a complete bummer and letdown that what was giving Harry hope ammounts to a woman who's point of attraction seems to be... she's blond.

If the whole thing didn't rub me the wrong way in conjunction to the other stuff about ideologies, I could just say that I'm seriously dissatisfied with the way female characters were written, I guess. And it does produce some unfortunate implications, possibly completely by accident, but it leaves a really bad taste in a game that was made by folks who demonstrably could've done better.
She's a 10/10 corporate spy that knows how to manipulate people extremely well - to the point that you don't entirely know if she's doing it on purpose most of the time or not. Is it really any wonder that she attracts the attention of the local drunks on the slums of Revachol?

As for Dora, again, I don't think like Harry's entire attraction towards Dora was physical. Klaasje isn't even the one that reminds Harry of her, that's Dolores Dei. Only Jean says Harry's attraction was only physical and he never actually met Harry while he was in the relationship. Pussy might be good but I really doubt it's "gonna completely change my career/live in abject poverty/dream about her every two nights for six years" good - IMO she's just left mostly vague so the game can prop up the "Harry is completely delusional and actually compares the real Dora to Dolores Dei" better. In his mind, she's not only beautiful, she's a goddess, something not even human.
 

Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
As for Dora, again, I don't think like Harry's entire attraction towards Dora was physical. - IMO she's just left mostly vague so the game can prop up the "Harry is completely delusional and actually compares the real Dora to Dolores Dei" better. In his mind, she's not only beautiful, she's a goddess, something not even human.

That's the problem, game leaves it vague, and then you get to Harry comparing her to a godess. And all you get on her is - well-off, scandinavian, blonde "elf". She comes across as an anime character, even without Harry's delusions.

Neo-folk junk music singers in the Balkans have made careers and discographies made entirely of songs that tell Harry's story - "Woman left me, she was all I had, she was the best thing that happened to me, now I'm a drunk mess". It's so low brow and banal that you can't believe that this woman was what kept Harry going in the first place. You can't believe you've just been playing a character who, when it is all said and done, comes down to that.

And it's not like anyone'd need him to be a superstar, or there being anything supernatural, or even not be shallow, but like... THAT shallow? Really? It just leaves you scratching your head if Harry wasn't just the most banal idiot to begin with and why you spent your time trying to understand him and guide him through his tribulations, if this is what it was all about... What I get from the game about Dora (or Klaasje for that matter) is something you roast someone for desiring, not something you comiserate with someone for losing...
 
Last edited:

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,836
So, a Harry who has "scored" an uptown extra-blond scandinavian-looking uberfrau, and had his life spiral out of control trying to keep her and can't get over her, and is drooling over a rather cookie-cutter Dutch magazine-cover girl, doesn't leave much room to place him anywhere interesting or exceptional. Or anywhere outside of what the game terms fascist, not completely inaccurately as it's often part of that mentality in RL, at least in parts of the world where the lead writer's from.

If I take that, and the effort that was put into exploring what the game calls "fascism", I get quite a bit disappointed with the whole thing. It's not that blondes can't or shouldn't be attractive, it's that that part of the game is taken waaaaaay too reverently. If you don't subscribe to "blond = pinnacle of perfection" mentality, you just can't take people drooling over Klaasje seriously, and you definitely can't see Harry's whole backstory as worthwhile. Any random shivers flashback has more nuance and worth in it than "guy fell for a girl who was blond AF, apparently mostly because she was blond AF, it fell apart, he spends the next 6 years trying to kill himself".
I think you're going about this the wrong way. It's not that he find blond women to be a "pinnacle of perfection", but blonde hair color reminds him of the woman he loves/loved so he automatically takes note of women with that hair color. Like KVVRR said - people tend to idealize things. It takes time or a shock of some kind to pull them out of it.

And like, every time he doesn't clown it up, most people around him are either impressed with him, in awe, terrified, scared, he's all kinds of competent and interesting (if disfunctional), but he still only wants that one girl? What the actual hell, any number of things he's been involved with in his life would've been better reasons to fall to pieces over.
Love/attraction is a hell of a drug.

Neo-folk junk music singers in the Balkans have made careers and discographies made entirely of songs that tell Harry's story - "Woman left me, she was all I had, she was the best thing that happened to me, now I'm a drunk mess". It's so low brow and banal that you can't believe that this woman was what kept Harry going in the first place. You can't believe you've just been playing a character who, when it is all said and done, comes down to that.
Why not? Just because something is "low brow and banal" doesn't mean it can't happen. Love and lust can make people do crazy things, and people getting depressed after losing their loved ones (either through an accident or via break-up) is not unusual. If anything I find it puzzling you don't seem to realize that.
 

Lujo

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Why not? Just because something is "low brow and banal" doesn't mean it can't happen. Love and lust can make people do crazy things, and people getting depressed after losing their loved ones (either through an accident or via break-up) is not unusual. If anything I find it puzzling you don't seem to realize that.

It's plausibe, sure, it's a fact of life, and love/attraction's a hell of a drug and all that, but where it rubs me the wrong way after a few different playthroughs is that wherever you take Harry ideologically you end up with that particular heartbreak at the end of it all. Every other ideology deals with other and more interesting things, except fascism. Endurance spells it out to you, "it's really about women". The game ends up coming off as telling you the same thing - all this other stuff is less real and less consequential, it can go this way or that way, but what drives you towards "fascism" is more serious than any of it.

It's like, your whole personality rallied in your defense just to shut you out from the pain of losing your love, and this is the most serious thing. It ends up making fascists, once you get past their absurd coping mechanisms, feel like they're the ones tackling the most real and serious issue. Sure, they're going about it in the dumbest and most self-destructive way possible, but for all other ideologies the question of what drives you towards them is subject to questioning, critique, strawmen, different opinions and a lot of roasting. And that's fine. But the game doesn't really roast Harry for his attraction / idealization of Dora, presents his attraction to Kaasje as something unavoidable, it's treated as if the only way to not fall for them is to be gay. And fascism is the only ideology which is presented as having much to do with men-women relationships, those are it's domain in the game.

It just ends up giving an impression that whatever path you take, you end up struggling with what fascists are struggling with. Other ideologies don't get caught up in it, and feel more disconnected from Harry's story. After a few playthroughs, it just increasingly rubs me the wrong way how much it all revolves about the writers seeming to expect the player to take it seriously. What if it's unrelateable? It can take as little as someone's taste in women not aligning with Harries for it to not work.

Or, rather, a player's idea of an ideal woman or a woman you could lose your mind over not aligning with the writers idea. And the writers idea of a woman to lose your mind over comes of as uninspired and banal, at least to me. Every other shallow and banal thing about Harry, or anyone else in the game, is taken shots at, and the game doesn't expect you to take it seriously.

I think it's an interesting question, what does this game actually end up saying about all that, unintentionally?
 
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Infinitron

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I guess it says something about the game's writing that its protagonist speaks so strongly to Lujo's identity. Remember that Harry isn't actually meant to be a not-Balkans "kojko". He's a generic Revacholian not-French white guy with an old-fashioned hairstyle.
 

Lujo

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I guess it says something about the game's writing that its protagonist speaks so strongly to Lujo's identity. Remember that Harry isn't actually meant to be a not-Balkans "kojko". He's a generic Revacholian not-French white guy with an old-fashioned hairstyle.

Oh yes, I'd definitelly feel less miffed about this particular thing if the writing wasn't otherwise superb. Planescape: Alcoholism in Yugo-Graad, seal of aproval from native, three thumbs up unironically.

I also know harry's not meant to be a kojko, but a kojko can appreciate a buch of stuff that's very kojko about it all. :) I also love how the game hits the right spots across nations, Baltimore to Marseille to Split to Talinn to places in China. Lot's of universal stuff in there.
 

Lujo

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Anywho, I just ran through the dialogue w Klaasje, and, well, the writers *were* aware of how ridiculous all this stuff is. She spells it out when you ask her what beauty is. She says she's been given an award for being the most stupid and boring contestant at a beauty pagent (she won). She's not badly written, its just that the game can come across wrong unintentionally, I guess.

TLDR would be, I guess: You can play Harry as into or against all sorts of things, as clear-headed or as deluded as you want, but you can't play a Harry who doesn't tragically fall for a type of girl that even a girl of that type would describe as the most stupid and boring thing in the world. This is kinda messed up, I think, and takes away from the whole experience.
 
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KVVRR

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Anywho, I just ran through the dialogue w Klaasje, and, well, the writers *were* aware of how ridiculous all this stuff is. She spells it out when you ask her what beauty is. She says she's been given an award for being the most stupid and boring contestant at a beauty pagent (she won). She's not badly written, its just that the game can come across wrong unintentionally, I guess.

TLDR would be, I guess: You can play Harry as into or against all sorts of things, as clear-headed or as deluded as you want, but you can't play a Harry who doesn't tragically fall for a type of girl that even a girl of that type would describe as the most stupid and boring thing in the world. This is kinda messed up, I think, and takes away from the whole experience.
As I said before it's not just Harry who falls for Miss Oranje Disco Dancer, even Kim who is actually gay gets compromised unless you warn him otherwise. It's not just that she's beautiful but that she's also a retired corporate spy that constantly had to manipulate people on her favor.

It just ends up giving an impression that whatever path you take, you end up struggling with what fascists are struggling with. Other ideologies don't get caught up in it, and feel more disconnected from Harry's story. After a few playthroughs, it just increasingly rubs me the wrong way how much it all revolves about the writers seeming to expect the player to take it seriously. What if it's unrelateable? It can take as little as someone's taste in women not aligning with Harries for it to not work.
Because at the end of the day, regardless of whatever you believe in, human relationships are what connect every single ideology at it's heart. It's like René says in the fascist vision quest, it's always about love -- a lot of the game spells this out to you, not just that quest. There's a whole segment on the deserter's conversation about how he tries to politically justify (or demonize) an emotional reaction to everything he knew going up in flames not to mention the entire "Communism killed him, but love did him in"

Or, rather, a player's idea of an ideal woman or a woman you could lose your mind over not aligning with the writers idea. And the writers idea of a woman to lose your mind over comes of as uninspired and banal, at least to me. Every other shallow and banal thing about Harry, or anyone else in the game, is taken shots at, and the game doesn't expect you to take it seriously.
Eh, not sure about this. Love's a fairly universal sentiment and I'd reckon pretty much everyone has felt this way at some point in their lives, one way or another. I've recently watched a playthrough with two guys going through the whole thing and in their final thoughts they said that they could really empathize with Harry's struggle despite one of them not really ever having a "one that got away". Even the stuff that they REALLY had no idea how to tackle from their own perspective (the part with Dora aborting their child) they said was very well done to showcase how fucked Harry got over this one chick.

Of couse I'm not saying it's good because they liked it but they are both (I think? at least one of them) happily married so they're in the opposite spectrum of the main character's situation. Personally when I first played the game I was going through the exact same thing Harry was and it hit me HARD. It's been years and even though I've moved on I still think it's very well done even after revisiting the game several times. I think when people from all sides of lives can relate or sympatize with the character's situation (and it's the writers intention to do so) then it's a win.
 

Lujo

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Oh, I get the concept of falling apart because you lost someone who was like Dora was for Harry. If anything, due to my own specific life circumstances and history, I suspect I'd fall apart if lost my wife. It's not a situation I couldn't sympathize with or don't want to. My problem is that I can't help but feel that Dora wasn't properly special. And seeing Klaasje define beauty the way she did, and this is not the first time I saw someone express that sentiment and I understand and agree with it, it's just difficult to respect someone who'd fall so madly in love with "the most stupid and boring of the contestants". Because I get the feeling that Dora was not much more than that, and Harry putting all his hope into her was just... stupid. Or vapid? Shallow? Or, idk, his own fault?
 

PrK

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I'm very into cock and ball torture
Forget fascism and blondes, what I want to know are what are the implications of this to
Harry being the next Innocence.
 

KVVRR

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Oh, I get the concept of falling apart because you lost someone who was like Dora was for Harry. If anything, due to my own specific life circumstances and history, I suspect I'd fall apart if lost my wife. It's not a situation I couldn't sympathize with or don't want to. My problem is that I can't help but feel that Dora wasn't properly special. And seeing Klaasje define beauty the way she did, and this is not the first time I saw someone express that sentiment and I understand and agree with it, it's just difficult to respect someone who'd fall so madly in love with "the most stupid and boring of the contestants". Because I get the feeling that Dora was not much more than that, and Harry putting all his hope into her was just... stupid. Or vapid? Shallow? Or, idk, his own fault?
I don't feel like that's a problem. Most of what we see of Dora is diluted by Harry's POV and the only real conversation we have with her is on the phone, while she's half-asleep, and Harry's having a mental breakdown. The game's constantly drawing parallels between her and Dolores Dei because she's that special to Harry, not necessarily the player.

Forget fascism and blondes, what I want to know are what are the implications of this to
Harry being the next Innocence.
oh my fucking god Gary was right
hiWqB1l.jpg
 

Harthwain

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My problem is that I can't help but feel that Dora wasn't properly special. And seeing Klaasje define beauty the way she did, and this is not the first time I saw someone express that sentiment and I understand and agree with it, it's just difficult to respect someone who'd fall so madly in love with "the most stupid and boring of the contestants". Because I get the feeling that Dora was not much more than that, and Harry putting all his hope into her was just... stupid. Or vapid? Shallow? Or, idk, his own fault?
Problem with that is that it is extremely subjective and impossible to reason - if you fall in love with someone, then you fall in love. Dora was special to Harry, even if she wasn't objectively special. While we are being haunted by Harry's past, we can't do much about it, similarly to how the Nameless One is haunted by his "pasts" in Planescape: Torment. All we can decide is how Harry deals with it, not much else.

Because at the end of the day, regardless of whatever you believe in, human relationships are what connect every single ideology at it's heart. It's like René says in the fascist vision quest, it's always about love -- a lot of the game spells this out to you, not just that quest. There's a whole segment on the deserter's conversation about how he tries to politically justify (or demonize) an emotional reaction to everything he knew going up in flames not to mention the entire "Communism killed him, but love did him in"
Human emotions/needs/desires connect not just every single ideology, but literally everything people do. That said, I never saw Harry's love problem as the key part of the whole ideology wheel. To me it was just a part of his emotional baggage that made him into a drunk smoking loser who sought an escape in debauchery and his job, and was a good pretext to create a way for the player to "self-discover/create" who Harry is (after he went into a blank slate state). It's also a pretext to tell the story of the city of Revachol and toy with perception of various ideologies, while having a plenty of laugh along the way. This is probably the main reason why my focus was on experiencing the crazy stuff you can do and treating Harry's past as a storytelling vehicle to justify being able to do all of that. As a result I wasn't hit as hard by the whole women/love thing, because to me it was more of a side-dish compared to everything else.
 

Lujo

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That said, I never saw Harry's love problem as the key part of the whole ideology wheel. To me it was just a part of his emotional baggage that made him into a drunk smoking loser who sought an escape in debauchery and his job, and was a good pretext to create a way for the player to "self-discover/create" who Harry is (after he went into a blank slate state). It's also a pretext to tell the story of the city of Revachol and toy with perception of various ideologies, while having a plenty of laugh along the way. This is probably the main reason why my focus was on experiencing the crazy stuff you can do and treating Harry's past as a storytelling vehicle to justify being able to do all of that. As a result I wasn't hit as hard by the whole women/love thing, because to me it was more of a side-dish compared to everything else.

I get you, neither did I at first. And you can just not take that nap at the end and never really resolve the breakup issues. But then, after a few playthroughs, especially a couple of final cut ones where ideology stuff is explored more and endgames for various ideologies are presented, the game left me wondering about how central harrys fixation and relation to his ex is.

And i got there by way of wondering about how well the ideology quests were implemented, how well they fit and such. And... Ended up feeling like the fascist one felt like it was connected / reflecting of what seems to be a constant in any playthrough. Up to and including the whole facing yourself in the mirror scene.
 

KVVRR

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Just thought about something. In the novel, Revachol gets nuked 22 years after the game happens. Harry can pass a godly reaction speed check where the city explicitly says that it will happen and that he can stop it. Now we can always just say that it's just a reference to the novel and just Harry's delusions but... The new pale lore that the artist released talked about people who can intercept data from the future travelling to the past and "create" "new" ideas, effectively changing the timeline. You can back this up by what the Dolored Dei assassin yells after he murdered her ("We were supposed to come up with this ourselves!").

What if Harry is a magpie, and not only is the novel canon, but Harry CAN actually change the future of Revachol? With the new lore I've seen a few people argue that the pale is just future timelines that are no more due to magpies. Futures that were set in stone and had already happened until someone in the past intercepted something that radically change it. That's why the pale grows at an unknown rate, it grows with each "new" timeline. Nobody can reasonably measure it.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Kurvitz interview from Steam Digital Tabletop Fest last month:



Join Auroch Digital’s Tomas Rawlings as he gets to know Robert Kurvitz, the lead designer and writer behind the critically acclaimed RPG, Disco Elysium. Discover how Disco Elysium evolved out of physical role-playing games, what inspires Robert in his game design, and just how expansive the dialogue trees in the game are!
 

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