Review Discworld overhypes KOTOR

[Spazmo]

Epicness aside, the NWN OC still feels like a mod instead of a professional product by a real design house. It's like they didn't give a shit about the OC and were instead focusing on the toolset. That's fine if you want to make a toolset, but the OC comes out pretty crappy. The only thing I really liked in the OC is that lich dude in Luskan who told me to break something and went "Let's see what kind of half-elven fury you can muster." I thought that was a good line.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, and TOEE reeks of "professionalism". Like I said, NWN OC is not the greatest; but it's definitely better than those who go overboard in their attacks on it. In fact, SP has stated clearly he feels it's medicore considering the time and money spent on it; not the actual quality. Of course he misses the fact that despite the fact that NWN was in development for 5 years or so; most of that was NOT spent on the OC. For an "afterthought"; it's not bad. :shock:

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not stating NWN is "epic" strictly due to its duration; but because of the subjects it covers. Whether it covers them well is a whole 'nother issue.

Is D2 an epic RPG then? You have to stop not 1, not 2, but 3 :!: of the biggest evils ever. What about DS? I don't recall the plot if there was one, but I'm pretty sure you were supposed to stop something bad too.

 

[Volourn]

Your stretching. Come back when you are done exercising.

 

[Spazmo]

Actually, ToEE does reek of professionalism. It's just a feel a game has. When I play ToEE I get the sense that what I bought was a game. When I played NWN, I felt like what I bought was a glorified toolset demonstration. And five years or no, the NWN OC just sucks.

 

[triCritical]

VD, how is Arcanum really more "epic" than NWN OC. Remember, I actually like Arcanum more; but they both are epic going directly by the definition of the word.

Because you can do about a BILLION more things in Arcanum. Because there is like a THOUSAND more characters possible. Because theres are about MILLION more CNPC's to talk to. And because there are 10x more ways to do things.

 

[Volourn]

Spam, we'll just have to disagree there. as the bugs say otherwise.

Tri, that really doesn't say anything.

 

[Voss]

Its also not true. As much as I prefer Arcanum to NWN...
its a nice exaggeration though.

 

[Volourn]

Heck, *I* prefer Arcanum to NWN where the OC's are concerned.

 

[TheDiscworld]

As long as media whore sites like GameBanshee, GameSpy/IGN, etc. and now Discworld, are all around, then it only hurts the gaming industry as hype is the coin of the realm to them. The better they pander, they hope to get exclusives; this shows that both the media has little integrity in being whores for news instead of being fiercely investigative, and the industry needs to knock down the treating of developers as celebrities or at least do something other than sacrifice integrity for "Interplay lurve", as GameBanshee even proved they like to bend over and take it like a vixen for Titus the Fox, too*. On top of all that, it doesn't help that many of these hype sites don't have any clue how the industry works.

Ok, as editor of The Discworld that's not fair! I'm not going to argue with you about the review or the score it was given as ultimately there are two vastly different opinions of the game which are never going to agree on certain aspects and features.

However, to call us a media whore site is deeply unfair. We have never and never will pander to publishers and developers in order to gain exclusives and our intergrity is one of the factors we pride ourselves on. I am fully aware of the ass-kissing that goes on in the industry but if we did that we would lose all respect from the readers which would ultimately destroy us as a site. To make a comment on the site like that on the basis of one review is rather unfair in my opinion.

Cheers,

Ross

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Ok, as editor of The Discworld that's not fair! I'm not going to argue with you about the review or the score it was given as ultimately there are two vastly different opinions of the game which are never going to agree on certain aspects and features.

Damnit, because I'd love to hear the explanation of the line about how you can sit back and watch the AI play for you making you feel satisfied about your tactics.

However, to call us a media whore site is deeply unfair. We have never and never will pander to publishers and developers in order to gain exclusives and our intergrity is one of the factors we pride ourselves on. I am fully aware of the ass-kissing that goes on in the industry but if we did that we would lose all respect from the readers which would ultimately destroy us as a site. To make a comment on the site like that on the basis of one review is rather unfair in my opinion.

Yeah, it's a shame that a lot of sites out there are nothing more than PR extensions of publishers. It'd be too easy to line up all the sites covering games and pick out one randomly and find one that doesn't bend over backwards to get exclusives.

But hey, it's pretty easy to see a 95% on a review of KotOR and assume that. KotOR has combat that's highly flawed due to console porting, one of the worst inventory interfaces ever, pitiful pathfinding, and so on. In game mechanics, KotOR does pretty well, but there's no way in hell it deserves a 95% with all the flaws it does have - and there's way too many sites that overhype it. Most of them tend to either not mention the flaws or simply gloss over them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hello Ross,
Thanks for stopping by, we appreciate the fact that you are willing to come by and "defend your honor". This is somewhat of a rarity these days. Although I'm a bit surprised that you refuse to argue about the review, you'd not expect us just to take your word for it, would you? Anyway, you said it's unfair to judge the site by one review. You know what? Fair enough.

I present you Exhibit A: NWN review rated 92%

There should be around 60 hours of gameplay which is nothing compared to the 200 found in Baldur's Gate but is a much more manageable number. Did anyone really play Baldur's Gate through to the end? However, the difference is the hours spent in Neverwinter Nights seem to suck you in and gives the game more meaning. Your time is spent well and everything you do seems to have an affect upon the world that you inhabit. This is the way RPG's are meant to be and every hour seems richer and fuller than other RPG's such as Baldur's Gate for example.

I'll leave it for somebody else to comment on.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

There should be around 60 hours of gameplay which is nothing compared to the 200 found in Baldur's Gate but is a much more manageable number.

Something which always bugged me, not necessarily with Baldur's Gate alone, but with other games (however BG is mentioned, so). 200 hours in BG? Are we talking about the first title? I'm only asking this because the entire saga lasted me 100 hours. That is, Baldur's Gate, Tales of the Sword Coast, Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn, and Throne of Bhaal. When someone tells me one of the titles lasted them 100 hours, or that the entire saga lasted them 400 hours, i think its strange.

Did anyone really play Baldur's Gate through to the end?

I did. Did anyone else regretted it as much as i did, though?

However, the difference is the hours spent in Neverwinter Nights seem to suck you in and gives the game more meaning. Your time is spent well and everything you do seems to have an affect upon the world that you inhabit. This is the way RPG's are meant to be and every hour seems richer and fuller than other RPG's such as Baldur's Gate for example.

It does? Care to give some examples?

 

[TheDiscworld]

But hey, it's pretty easy to see a 95% on a review of KotOR and assume that. KotOR has combat that's highly flawed due to console porting, one of the worst inventory interfaces ever, pitiful pathfinding, and so on. In game mechanics, KotOR does pretty well, but there's no way in hell it deserves a 95% with all the flaws it does have - and there's way too many sites that overhype it. Most of them tend to either not mention the flaws or simply gloss over them.

Well, I'll be honest with you, I really didn't think the combat was an issue in the game. I quite liked being able to sit back and watch the combat, stepping in as when I saw fit to change things round if it didn't seem to be working out for me. I also actually really liked the inventory interface and have really didn't see any examples of poor pathfinding. So, I donno, I mean I guess maybe you could argue that the reviewer didn't play the game long enough to spot these issues, but when you've played a game through to the end I think it's a reasonable assumption to presume you've seen pretty much all the game has to offer.

Now as regards the NWN review that was another game I really enjoyed. Not being a hardcore RPG'er myself, I never really got on with the Baldur's Gate games, yet NWN and KOTOR are games I found easily accessible and really drew me into their worlds. Maybe I should give the BG games another go now I'm more familiar with the genre, I donno.

I really don't have an issue with constructive criticism of the reviews because I think it's useful, I just get annoyed at having the site in general criticised for over-hyping games when that's the last thing we do. I hate is as much as anyone reading articles on games which have blatantly been written in order to secure an exclusive, but this is something as a site we would never do. If we like a game we'll sing it's praises if we hate it we'll slate it, but we always try and write as honestly as we can.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, I'll be honest with you, I really didn't think the combat was an issue in the game. I quite liked being able to sit back and watch the combat, stepping in as when I saw fit to change things round if it didn't seem to be working out for me.

I have no problem with people liking simple combat, after all, not everybody likes to treat battles like puzzles calculating every move. What I do have a problem with is when people use words like tactics to describe several clicks. There was nothing tactical about KOTOR's combat. You may not be a hardcore RPG player and your site may be focused on casual players, but let's remember that words are not Christmas decorations and they do have meanings.

I also actually really liked the inventory interface

May I ask you what you liked about the inventory interface especially comparing it to that of other games?

Now as regards the NWN review that was another game I really enjoyed. Not being a hardcore RPG'er myself, I never really got on with the Baldur's Gate games, yet NWN and KOTOR are games I found easily accessible and really drew me into their worlds. Maybe I should give the BG games another go now I'm more familiar with the genre, I donno.

If you are/were a newbie, may be you should have avoided saying things like "This is the way RPG's are meant to be and every hour seems richer and fuller than other RPG's". "This is my first/second RPG and I really like it because it wasn't very complicated" would have been much more appropriate.

Anyway, back to KOTOR:

Name the last truly great Star Wars game? You’d have to cast your mind back a long, long time

How about Jedi Knight series?

In terms of a gaming experience KOTOR is about as good as it gets. In fact it’s damn near impossible to fault

Impossible to fault? You must be kidding. Let me know if you want to go into a detailed discussion and actually learn something.

Not only this but it’s an even better experience than its console counterparts due to the interface being mouse driven and a joy to use

And then you get surprised and upset when people question where this "enthusiasm" is coming from. A joy to use? Compared to what?

The only other slight downside is the lack of a multiplayer mode ...

The only? Have you not had any crashes and slowdowns? Did you try playing a game on a "recommended" system?

Ultimately, Bioware have given us not only the best RPG experience there is, but also one of the gaming highlights of the last 5 years and definitely the best Star Wars game since the mid 90’s.

You must be easily excited and have a poor memory. In a word: overhyped.

 

[Volourn]

*sigh* As much as I disagree with the review; perhaps they actually feel the game is that good and deserves that high of a rating without being bought? Then again, anyone who disagrees with RPOGCodex were obviously paid or are just plainly stupid as no one with a brain could disagree with the people here. Geez.. I personally didn't like KOTOR's inventory, and felt that it could have used more combat options along with more movement control; that said I cna live with others disagreeing with me on them. It just shouldn't be that big of deal.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'm curious as to the question of the inventory as well. If you've played NWN, surely you'd have to know that the inventory system in KotOR is horrid to say the least. If you can't remember what NWN's(and just about every other PC CRPG in recent memory) inventory was like, all you had to do was drag items to and from your inventory to your body to wear or use something. In KotOR, because it's a console port, you have to select the equip screen - one that's actually different from the normal inventory screen, then select a body part, then select something to put on and hit "accept". You're talking about going from a two step procedure to one that involves four steps just to put on one piece of gear.

Now, if you're going to put on multiple pieces of armor, in a typical CRPG the formula for the number of steps required is n+1 where n is the number of piece of equipment you want to equip. In KotOR, the number of steps is (n*3)+1!

In case you don't understand the formulization there, here's what I mean. Say your character wants to change his armor, helmet, weapon, and belt. In NWN or most PC CRPGs, you open up the inventory, you drag the belt to the paperdoll, you drag the armor to the paper doll, you drag the helmet to the paperdoll, and you drag the weapon to the paperdoll. Four items, plus openning the inventory, is five steps to outfit yourself. In KotOR, however, you open the equip screen, you select the waist, you select the belt, you hit accept, you select the chest, you select the armor, you hit accept, you select the head, you select the helmet, you hit accept, you select the hand, you select the weapon, you hit accept.. 13 steps to do the exact same thing every other game does in five simple steps. That's precisely why KotOR's inventory system sucks. I'm also actually being generous with that formula and not counting the case where you have more items in your inventory for that body part than it can display at once. In that case, we're talking (n*4)+1 because of scrolling.

As Vault Dweller pointed out, that review isn't objective just because of the line about it being nearly impossible to find any faults. There's plenty of faults in the game, you just have to be objective about it. Just because you enjoy a game doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it. That's one problem a lot of sites seem to have with their reviews. If you like a game, they rarely include any faults at all. Even the best games ever made, and KotOR certainly isn't one of them, have faults. You have to look passed any emotional attachment you have with the game, and note those things which are distractions or annoyances. That's the TAO OF REVIEWING!

 

[Volourn]

Aye; but no need to get so upset about it; though.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As much as I disagree with the review; perhaps they actually feel the game is that good and deserves that high of a rating without being bought? Then again, anyone who disagrees with RPOGCodex were obviously paid or are just plainly stupid as no one with a brain could disagree with the people here. Geez..

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Why do you feel that it's about somebody disagreeing with the Codex? We disagree all the time, so what? The difference between you and them is that you explain your position and justify it. I may not agree with your justification, but I know it's there. Like I said I have no problems with people liking a game just because, then say so and don't try to make anyone believe that it's teh bestest game evar.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah; but what's with all the vitriol though? It's so over the top; it's jsut silly; that no wonder they tend not to take your opinions' silly. When I say RPGCodex; I mean the same group of people who tend to agree with each other overall like little robots 9even if they aren't). :twisted: Disagree; but without the overboaridng of insults and claims.

 

[TheDiscworld]

I have no problem with people liking simple combat, after all, not everybody likes to treat battles like puzzles calculating every move. What I do have a problem with is when people use words like tactics to describe several clicks. There was nothing tactical about KOTOR's combat. You may not be a hardcore RPG player and your site may be focused on casual players, but let's remember that words are not Christmas decorations and they do have meanings.

So, in your opinion what would constitute tactical?

May I ask you what you liked about the inventory interface especially comparing it to that of other games?

Well it allowed me all the information I needed without having to spend ages searching for it. A button press on the keyboard and I could do and get anything I needed.

How about Jedi Knight series?

The only other good Star Wars games of recent memory but the latest two games weren't a patch on the original Jedi Knight which was one of the best ever FPS's. Don't get me wrong I loved Jedi Academy but that was a flawed game and as a Star Wars product KOTOR beats it.

The only? Have you not had any crashes and slowdowns? Did you try playing a game on a "recommended" system?

Experienced no crashes and little if any slow downs and the game was tested on three machines including a recommended spec one.

 

[suibhne]

The OC is definitely longer then the usual game is not?

Yep. That's one of its main problems.

Count me in the crowd that really enjoyed the BG games (even though I think they're not good RPGs, per se). I'm not exactly a BIO-hater; I just have a deep-seated loathing for NWN. Haven't played HotU yet, but I pretty much hated SoU as well. Based on my general enjoyment of BG, though, I'm looking forward to KotOR, particularly after the reviews I've seen from Codex curmudgeons.

As for the OC, you don't get out of it quite so easily by describing it as a pretty good "afterthought." The OC was hyped by BIO as one the major components of the game - sometimes the most significant part, in fact, and this is hardly surprising considering that multiplayer still accounts for a vanishly-small minority of PC gaming. I agree with you that it was an afterthought (or maybe a forethought - a proof-of-concept), but then BIO shouldn't have hyped it as The Big Ring in that pertikler circus.

The eternal struggle continues. . . .

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, in your opinion what would constitute tactical?

Don't take my word for it, here is the dictionary: the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat or the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end. Temple of Elemental Evil is tactical, XCom is tactical, Jagged Alliance is tactical. KOTOR's gameplay consists of clicking on one of the enemies choosing one of the very few available feats producing similar effects, unlike ToEE, waiting till the enemy dies, then picking another one. I'm not saying it's very bad, but it's not tactical.

Well it (inventory) allowed me all the information I needed without having to spend ages searching for it. A button press on the keyboard and I could do and get anything I needed.

Like I said compared to what? If it was the first computer game ever then yes, may be, but it's not. Like Saint pointed out, there is big difference between using the standard "4 clicks" system that also displays all items in a visually accessible manner and "13 clicks" system where you also have to scroll up and down to locate something.

The only other good Star Wars games of recent memory but the latest two games weren't a patch on the original Jedi Knight which was one of the best ever FPS's. Don't get me wrong I loved Jedi Academy but that was a flawed game and as a Star Wars product KOTOR beats it.

Did you notice by any chance that for a SW game, KOTOR focused to much on swords? The ranged weapons were hardly as effective and they had a penalty for close range which is kinda ridiculous. Were you surprised when your lightsaber was deflected by every other sword and even some tribal sticks? Did you find it odd that 4,000 years ago everything, and I mean everything, looks exactly like in the movies, including the design of your ship? 4,000 years is a looong time.

 

[TheDiscworld]

I'm curious as to the question of the inventory as well. If you've played NWN, surely you'd have to know that the inventory system in KotOR is horrid to say the least. If you can't remember what NWN's(and just about every other PC CRPG in recent memory) inventory was like, all you had to do was drag items to and from your inventory to your body to wear or use something. In KotOR, because it's a console port, you have to select the equip screen - one that's actually different from the normal inventory screen, then select a body part, then select something to put on and hit "accept". You're talking about going from a two step procedure to one that involves four steps just to put on one piece of gear.

But, this just isn't a problem. Having to click the mouse more times than in other games barely detracts from the gaming experience. Since when did we judge the quality of a game on how many times you click the mouse button?

I liked having my inventory filtered into sections that could only be useable by that particular body part. Instead of having to trawl through my whole inventory I could see straight away the only items which could be equipped for example by my hands instead of having to look through armour other things, I found it simplified matters even if it did take a few extra mouse clicks so what?[/quote]

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

But, this just isn't a problem. Having to click the mouse more times than in other games barely detracts from the gaming experience. Since when did we judge the quality of a game on how many times you click the mouse button?

Since Diablo?

Seriously though, this is a problem. If an inventory format is cumbersome, or isn't taking advantage of the platform its in, its ridiculous. Lets not forget, mouse-driven inventory management is a standard of PC games. Drag and drop is logical and functional; having to perform long-drawn-out button presses to do something which could be handled with half, or a third, of button presses, is unnecessary.