Do you believe in the concept of "system bloat" in RPGs?

[luj1]

its both

kingdom management is both bad, and bloat

 

[†††]

make mediocre rpg
add mediocre racing minigame
now it's a codex 10/10

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

No one ITT can define system bloat as something other than 'system I don't like'

I could only see such a thing in a live service multiplayer game where they add on features and it makes the game less accessible to new players from launch. very little relevance in rpgs which lean towards stream lining

because 'system bloat' doesn't exist, only good or bad systems.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Systems bloat is a specific criticism of bad design or execution due to excess. It's an identified root cause of failure. A diagnosis.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

No one ITT can define system bloat as something other than 'system I don't like'

I could only see such a thing in a live service multiplayer game where they add on features and it makes the game less accessible to new players from launch. very little relevance in rpgs which lean towards stream lining

because 'system bloat' doesn't exist, only good or bad systems.

You're being deliberately obtuse. Systems bloat is a specific criticism of bad design or execution due to excess. It's an identified root cause of failure. A diagnosis.

if that 'excess' was in fact good, nobody would complain

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. "wow, I don't like bad things... but there's a lot of bad... The issue must be that there is a lot!"
if someone serves you a big bowl of shit, is your first complaint also that there's too much shit?

 

[Ol' Willy]

make mediocre rpg
add mediocre racing minigame
now it's a codex 10/10

Minigames are not systems

 

[Vic]

RPGs are the worst offenders of system bloat. You have:

- story
- puzzles
- combat
- exploration
- character development
- inventory management
- crafting
- dating sim
- etc.

You can break out each system into its own game and it would work. No wonder people don't know what an RPG is.

 

[Not.AI]

Yall gonna be triggered on Christmas! I liked the minigames in Jade Empire.

 

[luj1]

make mediocre rpg
add mediocre racing minigame
now it's a codex 10/10

Minigames are not systems

but they are subsystems

 

[luj1]

if that 'excess' was in fact good

excess isnt good by definition

 

[Reever]

Feature bloat definitely exists. But I can not understand the point of this thread when it mostly focuses on one game and the "feature bloat" is one (out of two) of it's main selling points.

It's feature bloat regardless of internal complexity.

Let us imagine that Kingdom Management was amazingly done, like you had Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri inside an RPG.

Would you really care? You wanted to play an RPG in the first place.

You bought a game that is advertised as an RPG with a kingdom manager.

You can have Quake, Need for Speed and Fallout in one game. Theoretically you could. But you don't, because not all people like racing games, or shooters, or RPGs.

And it'd probably be called Rage. Or you could drop the Fallout, make it third person and call it GTA.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

if that 'excess' was in fact good

excess isnt good by definition

And you only consider it excess because you think it's bad.

 

[luj1]

doesnt matter what anyone considers or thinks, it *is* bad

 

[Vic]

yes its bad because a game with 2-3 well developed systems is better than a game with 10 shallow systems.

 

[Vic]

also consider that dev time is limited so you will never get more quality if they go for quantity.

the example with GTA s moot because it's an old AAA franchise and GTA1 started fairly simple too. If you have lots of money and people, sure go for it, but Owlcat is indie.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

also consider that dev time is limited so you will never get more quality if they go for quantity.

ideal codex game: one *very good* system(no matter how small the system is, probably pazaak), the game lasts for exactly 5 seconds.

ah yes, perfect game, good system, not long enough to ruin the game.

 

[Vic]

Or on the other extreme we have Dwarf Fortress, there was a bug once where all cats would die. The reason was that as cats walked around in taverns, the spilled booze would stick to their paws and when they licked them they would die from alcohol poisoning. That's how insanely meticulous DF's simulation is but that took decades of dev time.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Or on the other extreme we have Dwarf Fortress, there was a bug once where all cats would die. The reason was that as cats walked around in taverns, the spilled booze would stick to their paws and when they licked them they would die from alcohol poisoning. That's how insanely meticulous DF's simulation is but that took decades of dev time.

and yet by many of its fans it's considered to be one of the greatest games ever made, blending multiple genres together

 

[d1r]

It's definitely annoying when feature bloat is fucking with the main campaign of the game (Fallout 4 Settlements), or has to be there, because the genre "demands" it (Elden Ring suddenly introducing crafting because its open world). Also, fuck every JRPG that has a fishing minigame.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's definitely annoying when feature bloat is fucking with the main campaign of the game (Fallout 4 Settlements)

But the issue is that they don't do anything with settlements. If proper settlement defense existed, settlers helped build & defend, etc., it would probably be praised.
So, how is this bloat if the issue is that it doesn't have enough features?

 

[†††]

If proper settlement defense existed, settlers helped build & defend, etc., it would probably be praised.

I don't play fallout to do that shit.

 

[Vic]

Fallout 4's settlement system exists because of another shitty Bethesda system: excessive loot. Both stand in the way of "traditional" RPG gameplay. If I want a casino simulator or a base building game, there are much better solutions.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If proper settlement defense existed, settlers helped build & defend, etc., it would probably be praised.

I don't play fallout to do that shit.

People didn't play Metal Gear Solid for basebuilding either.

That was, until MGSV...

 

[Pocgels]

System bloat usually becomes a problem due to trying to sell loads of expansions/DLCs and the need to justify people buying them. It's usually a big problem for Paradox games and "live-service" type MMOs and such where you have people dumping loads of hours into the game. Warframe and EU4 are probably two of the most bloated games I've ever played for more than a few hours.

Not often a problem for RPGs. There are useless crappy features due to kickstarter promises or whatever, but even at their worst, they tend not to actively harm the main game in the way the above does.

 

[†††]

People didn't play Metal Gear Solid for basebuilding either.

That was, until MGSV...

And it was hated and most tried to skip it or mod it to be less of an annoyance

Since having an avatar of a game means identifying with the flaws of said game, shall we start with the PoE games?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Since having an avatar of a game means identifying with the flaws of said game, shall we start with the PoE games?

Sure, the base management in pillows was far too shallow and not enough was done with it.
Dumpsterfire's ship combat was lol, again, far too shallow.

I'm noticing a theme here. The issue isn't bloat, but unfinished shallow systems stacked on top of each other. A 'bloated' game would be great, look at Dwarf Fortress, one of the most bloated games of all time.