Do young game designers make better RPGs than industry veterans?

[Shaewaroz]

After watching the latest Matt Chat interview with Brent Knowles, I began to ponder whether young, passionate game designers actually make better CRPGs than experienced industry veterans. Brent expressed in Matt's interview how he's not the same person he was when he was involved in making Baldur's Gate 2 and other Bioware classics. Like many other industry veterans, Brent thought that his early career games had many tedious and cumbersome features that needed "streamlining". According to his own words he is nowadays a huge fan of Quick Travel feature in RPGs, since he is too busy to use ½ hour of real life time to travel from one town to another in a game.

Let's take a look at some of the most beloved CRPG developers and games they have been involved in during various stages of their careers.


Richard Garriott

Ultima IV --> Richard Garriott (24)
Ultima VII: Black Gate --> Richard Garriott (31)
Shroud of The Avatar --> Richard Garriott (56)


Warren Spector / Doug Church

Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss --> Warren Spector (37), Doug Church (24)
System Shock --> Warren Spector (39), Doug Church (26)
Thief: The Dark Project --> Warren Spector (43), Doug Church (30)
Deus Ex --> Warren Spector (45), Doug Church (32)
Deus Ex: Invisible War --> Warren Spector (48), Doug Church (35)
Epic Mickey --> Warren Spector (55)
Portal 2 --> Doug Church (43)


Chris Avellone

Fallout 2 --> Chris Avellone (27)
Planescape: Torment --> Chris Avellone (28)
Icewind Dale --> Chris Avellone (29)
Knights of The Old Republic II --> Chris Avellone (33)
Neverwinter Nights 2 --> Chris Avellone (35)
Fallout: New Vegas --> Chris Avellone (39)
Pillars of Eternity --> Chris Avellone (44)
Tyranny --> Chris Avellone (45)


Tim Cain

Stonekeep --> Tim Cain (30)
Fallout --> Tim Cain (32)
Fallout 2 --> Tim Cain (33)
Arcanum --> Tim Cain (36)
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines --> Tim Cain (39)
Pillars of Eternity --> Tim Cain (50)


Ray Muzyka / Greg Zeschuk

Baldur's Gate --> Ray Muzyka (29), Greg Zeschuk (29)
Baldur's Gate 2 --> Ray Muzyka (31), Greg Zeschuk (31)
Neverwinter Nights --> (32)
Mass Effect --> (37)
Dragon Age: Origins --> (39)


David W. Bradley

Wizardry 6 --> (35)
Wizardry 7 --> (37)
Wizards and Warriors --> (45)
Dungeon Lords --> (50)


Ken Levine

System Shock 2 --> (33)
Bioshock --> (41)
Bioshock Infinite --> (47)


I couldn't find Paul Neurath's age, but we can still inspect his career progression.

Space Rogue (1989) --> Late 20s?
Ultima Underworld (1992) --> Early 30s?
Thief: The Dark Project (1997) --> Late 30s?
Underworld Ascendent (2018) --> Approx 60?


I will add more examples later, but these are enough to get the conversation started.

How does age affect design philosophy of game developers? Do younger game developers make better CRPGs?

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Do young writers write better books? Etc.

Yes, with many examples.

The T goes down after age of 35. Simple as that.

 

[Metro]

Good developers make good games. Bad developers make bad games.

 

[Molina]

Do young writers write better books? Etc.

Yes, with many examples.

The T goes down after age of 35. Simple as that.

Stendhal wrote his first novel at the age of 44 yo.

 

[buffalo bill]

Do young writers write better books? Etc.

Yes, with many examples.

The T goes down after age of 35. Simple as that.

War and peace, Tolstoy 41 yo
Anna Karenina, Tolstoy 49 yo
Faust part 1, Goethe 59 yo
Faust part 2, Goethe 82 yo
The Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky 58 yo

etc.

 

[Vlajdermen]

Do young writers write better books? Etc.

Yes, with many examples.

The T goes down after age of 35. Simple as that.

War and peace, Tolstoy 41 yo
Anna Karenina, Tolstoy 49 yo
The Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky 58 yo

etc.

That's different. Slavic T doesn't go down.

 

[octavius]

Most artists are at their peak when they have some experience, but are still hungry.
Game developers are not an exception, I think.

 

[Nano]

To answer the question: idk lol, it depends on the designer.
But those are some bad examples.

Warren Spector

Spector is a producer, not a designer. He's essentially a glorified PR guy, he's never had any overt influence on the design of his games (besides deciding who to hire to design his games).

Doug Church
Deus Ex: Invisible War --> Doug Church (35)
Portal 2 --> Doug Church (43)

Church had literally no involvement involvement with Invisible War, and he was far from the main guy on Portal 2. (did he even work on it at all?)

Chris Avellone
Tyranny

Nothing substantial of what Avellone did on Tyranny remained by the time Obsidian was done with it.

Tim Cain
Pillars of Eternity

He only designed a minor part of the game that had to be run by Sawyer.

 

[Shaewaroz]

I know they're bad examples, I was in a hurry. Will add better examples later.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Older people entering the field will likely have just as fresh ideas as young people. It's not their age but how long they've been doing it.

 

[Agame]

Older people entering the field will likely have just as fresh ideas as young people. It's not their age but how long they've been doing it.

This. Dunno why people are so obsessed with age, it has fuck all to do with anything, its all about mindset.

The main killer for game devs that have been in the game to long, as we are finding out, is fatigue, complacency and "selling out" due to sheer greed and laziness.

 

[Machocruz]

Most creative people probably only have a few great works in them, and they will most likely be eager to shoot their load as soon as possible . People were saying Spielberg had lost it when he moved towards more serious films, but Munich is much better than Always which was far worse than movies he made only a few years earlier. I don't know if there is something about game design in particular that relies on youth.

 

[luj1]

Do young game developers make better CRPGs than industry veterans?

Right now? Probably

Industry veterans are struggling to replicate their biggest successes and that's normal. I've seen many fresh ideas from indie studies and small teams and that's normal too. Just like in every industry, sport or sphere of life, eventually the new, fresher generation must replace the old.

 

[Tavernking]

life is pure decline after the age of 40

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

>Western games are all live services with Microtransac forever
>Jap vidya saved games this year
>Check the great directors in Jap vidya
>All of them grew up in 1980s Japan and are in/nearly in their 50s
>Meaning they'll probably retire in the next decade
>Check out the younger ones below them
>Literally nothing but fucking Gal Gun XBC2 hentaibait autism creators who like dubstep

 

[Terra]

WTF, Matt's actually put out a decent interview for the first time in ages, I'll have to give it a watch.

There was an interview (https://bradhatesgames.wordpress.co...view-with-naughty-dog-co-founder-jason-rubin/) I read once from Jason Rubin of Naughty Dog fame where he was discussing one of his earliest works, Rings of Power, which was one of the first RPGs I ever played and certainly set the tone for what I'd enjoy in the future to some extent. He basically described it as one of their "purest" works. It was the game they wanted to make, while the stuff that came later were shaped to appeal and please the largest audiences possible. While he only made one RPG, I think the general point still stands, perhaps even moreso given how developers pivoted away from pure RPGs in years gone by.

I think as more money enters the picture via investments/buyouts, etc, so too the pressure rises to make even greater returns; typical path to accomplish this is lowering perceived barrier to entry and streamlining. Which in the realm of RPGs ultimately means making games for people that actually don't really like RPGs, but only like certain elements of them, hence why companies that once made solid RPGs now make streamlined fully voiced, dialog wheel, cover shooters. I think younger devs are just more willing to take risks (kickstarter/startups etc) to deliver a "purer" vision of a game/rpg than a more established dev with arguably more at stake if said gamble flops.

 

[mondblut]

The veterans wanted to replicate the TNG holodeck and only stuck with those pesky stats and end turn buttons because technical limitations. They jumped our ship to make MMO VR hiking sims as soon as the tech permitted them.

The young developers, OTOH, want to replicate what those veterans did produce - the kind of games that we played and loved.

Also, the veterans have a comfy lifestyle to support, thus needing stable income from hordes of drooling retards.

 

[luj1]

How does age affect design philosophy of game developers?

Find me one dev who is *consistently* dishing out inclined cult classics. Everyone has the beginning and the end of what they call a "career"

 

[mondblut]

Find me one dev who is *consistently* dishing out inclined cult classics. Everyone has the beginning and the end of what they call a "career"

Well, Illwinter, if consistently dishing out improved iterations of the same cult classic over 20 years counts.

Or Cleve, if sitting on an unreleased iteration of the same cult classic over 20 years counts.

 

[luj1]

Ye or Vogel. But that doesn't really count in my book. I'm just saying everyone has his prime (and duration to it)

 

[mondblut]

Ye or Vogel. But that doesn't really count in my book. I'm just saying everyone has his prime (and duration to it)

Vogel whooshed past his prime after Exile 3 and has been consistently declining ever since. That's why I didn't bring him up.

 

[Andnjord]

Do young writers write better books? Etc.

Yes, with many examples.

The T goes down after age of 35. Simple as that.

War and peace, Tolstoy 41 yo
Anna Karenina, Tolstoy 49 yo
The Brothers Karamazov, Dostoevsky 58 yo

etc.

That's different. Slavic T doesn't go down.

Non Slavic writers

Les Miserables, Victor Hugo 60 yo
A Tale of two Cities, Charles Dickens, 47 yo
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Mark Twain, 50 yo

Needs more?

 

[Shaewaroz]

I'd like to direct the conversation further towards RPGs in general.

I've watched countless interviews of CRPG developers who all mention that when they were working on the masterpieces of their youth, they basically had no idea how to make a CRPG and were basically just learning everything through trial and error. Let's take the Baldur's Gate development team as an example. Vast majority of the team members had never made a game before. Nobody had told them how to make a CRPG. Most were just D&D fans who wanted to make the perfect computer adaptation of D&D. The end result was a little rough around the edges, but undeniably it's a game that has a soul. Both Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 were created by relatively large development teams (30-100 people), so the end result cannot be explained exclusively by the creative freedom provided by the small development team.

I think the main advantage of young RPG developers might be their carefree and playful nature. They still like to have heated debates about D&D rules and can spent hours planning how to defeat a Demigorgon. Creativity is a natural byproduct of this kind of playfulness. Older developers have numerous responsibilities that tend to suffocate creativity, so they perhaps tend to autopilot through the creative process, trusting in their previous game development experience. Fantasy loses it's charm over the years and it's hard to force yourself to be passionate working on stories about orcs and elves you've seem in dozens of other games throughout your life. Young developers might also actually be better team workers - spending days in dimly little, sweaty dungeons with their buddies is basically heaven to them, whereas mature game developers have to fetch their kids from soccer practice after work.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'd like to direct the conversation further towards RPGs in general.

I've watched countless interviews of CRPG developers who all mention that when they were working on the masterpieces of their youth, they basically had no idea how to make a CRPG and were basically just learning everything through trial and error. Let's take the Baldur's Gate development team as an example. Vast majority of the team members had never made a game before. Nobody had told them how to make a CRPG. Most were just D&D fans who wanted to make the perfect computer adaptation of D&D. The end result was a little rough around the edges, but undeniably it's a game that has a soul. Both Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate 2 were created by relatively large development teams (30-100 people), so the end result cannot be explained exclusively by the creative freedom provided by the small development team.

I think the main advantage of young RPG developers might be their carefree and playful nature. They still like to have heated debates about D&D rules and can spent hours planning how to defeat a Demigorgon. Creativity is a natural byproduct of this kind of playfulness. Older developers have numerous responsibilities that tend to suffocate creativity, so they perhaps tend to autopilot through the creative process, trusting in their previous game development experience. Fantasy loses it's charm over the years and it's hard to force yourself to be passionate working on stories about orcs and elves you've seem in dozens of other games throughout your life. Young developers might also actually be better team workers - spending days in dimly little, sweaty dungeons with their buddies is basically heaven to them, whereas mature game developers have to fetch their kids from soccer practice after work.

I'd argue it's a certain codification of design, combined with the feeling that just doing the same thing they did in their youth but better isn't enough.

Look at Richard Garriott. In the 90s he had that weird obsession with never using the same engine for more than one Ultima game, so Ultima VI, VII, VIII, IX all got their own engines... and in the case of VIII and IX it didn't go very well as they were more action game engines than RPG ones. Serpent Isle was even called Ultima VII Part II even though it was a standalone full length game... but he didn't want to call it Ultima VIII because it used the same engine and assets as U7. Then in the late 90s he became really obsessed with MMOs and everything he's been doing since is MMO shit - and none of his later MMOs are as good as Ultima Online was. People would buy the shit out of a new single player RPG made by Garriott, but he just doesn't feel like doing the same thing he already did in the past again. He wants to push forward into whatever direction he thinks is the future, rather than just re-making the good games of his younger years. People would love him to do the same kind of game he used to do, but he doesn't think it's worth the effort since he's already made plenty of classic RPGs that people still play today.

There are plenty of legendary designers who feel like the next game they make has to be as revolutionary as their first, or it won't be worth the effort. It would just be a re-hash of the thing they've already shown they can do. There's not enough prestige in making a spiritual successor to your legendary beloved first game, because it will always just be seen as "the successor to his legendary first game that gave him the status of legendary designer in the first place!"

On the other side of the coin, there are those developers who found a formula that works and have now zoned out and are just going through the motions. Jeff Vogel is the perfect example. Exile was pretty good and he tapped a market on the Mac with it, then he made the decent Avernums and good Geneforges. Then he re-made Avernum (which was a remake of Exile in the first place). Then he made the extremely bland, boring and formulaic Avadon. And despite going for the Bioware audience with that one, he didn't really bother fixing the presentation of his games, which has always been the worst part about them: the graphics are still eeeh (but at least decent in Avadon compared to previous games), and there still isn't a soundtrack. Why doesn't he just hire someone to do a soundtrack? Because he doesn't feel the need to invest in it. His games have an audience no matter how much effort he puts in them, so he just goes through the motions and releases remakes and uninspired clones nowadays. He's just old and tired, after all.

So there's either:
- the feeling of needing to outdo one's previous efforts; a good sequel that improves on the original isn't good enough, it needs to be something revolutionary
- complacency and going through the motions of established design principles rather than trying to shake things up a bit and approach a new game with a fresh perspective