Does anyone wanna play SC2?

[kingcomrade]

I will probably be less of a baby since im not drunk off my ass today, i'll play some more.

SMA did not rush reapers, he massed 6 or 7 of them.

If anyone wants to play come on #fallout

 

[Damned Registrations]

Just did my last placement match today. 4-1 record, threw me in plat league. All my wins were very easy and my one loss should have been a win (I crushed him early but completely forgot to keep up my economy in my excitement and he ended up expanding everywhere while I tried to play catchup and transition to different units), but apparently you can't get into diamond from placement anyways, and always start with 0 points in your league, so it won't have made much difference.

I have another complaint about the nydus worms: They unload troops fucking SLOWLY. You'd get faster troop placement from 2 overlords unloading at once, never mind 8. No way you'd be able to use this to reinforce an unguarded expo in time if you get caught off guard. The only possible current use I can see would be total travel time being irrelevant, and therefore useful for mobility on an insanely large map. Which, of course, doesn't matter at all for normal games.

 

[kingcomrade]

whats funny is SCVs can kill a worm if the other player sees it fast enough

 

[fizzelopeguss]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... _id=145719

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

You can stop whining now.

EDIT: some gorgeous nydus play. you've just gotta be korean to pull it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tew8s9hM ... _embedded#!

 

[Overweight Manatee]

I'll play you a game

Plague
Character Code 397

I play random, so there is a 66% chance KC won't be able to bitch if he loses.

Reapers use a lot of gas, between the tech lab, speed boost and reapers themselves. So to get decently early reapers, the ramp won't be blocked as early as usual, since you make a refinery first. On top of that, even if the ramp is blocked, there won't be any marines- the barracks is making a techlab first.

You are making a tech lab anyway because lol marauders. The reapers only costs 50 gas each and 50 once for a speed boost. Having reapers means a fast expanding Zerg loses instantly, so even if you never make a reaper in any game you are still benefiting because the Zerg can never fast expand. The mere fact that reapers exist means that Zerg early game is severely hindered.

I have another complaint about the nydus worms: They unload troops fucking SLOWLY. You'd get faster troop placement from 2 overlords unloading at once, never mind 8. No way you'd be able to use this to reinforce an unguarded expo in time if you get caught off guard. The only possible current use I can see would be total travel time being irrelevant, and therefore useful for mobility on an insanely large map. Which, of course, doesn't matter at all for normal games.

Nydus Worm: Spit 2 units a second that will also die at a rate of 2 units a second. In most cases you will help your opponent kill your army easier and lose the expo anyway. 100 minerals/100 gas per use + 150/200 to start the first one.

Planetary Fortress: Kill half the zerg army while being repaired at a rate of 20 Health/Second for each SCV (there will normally be at least 10 SCVs, so thats 200 H/s). Have 5 armor so that the Zerg army does somewhere from 50-80% less damage. Have an AoE attack. Cost: 150 minerals 150 gas.

 

[Antihero]

I have another complaint about the nydus worms: They unload troops fucking SLOWLY. You'd get faster troop placement from 2 overlords unloading at once, never mind 8. No way you'd be able to use this to reinforce an unguarded expo in time if you get caught off guard. The only possible current use I can see would be total travel time being irrelevant, and therefore useful for mobility on an insanely large map. Which, of course, doesn't matter at all for normal games.

Yeah, right now I find them more useful to press an advantage, like if I clear a toehold in the back of their base and then want to swarm in with my main army. Some people seem to use two nydus networks so they can spawn two worms at once, but that's pretty expensive and risky.

Planetary Fortress: Kill half the zerg army while being repaired at a rate of 20 Health/Second for each SCV (there will normally be at least 10 SCVs, so thats 200 H/s). Have 5 armor so that the Zerg army does somewhere from 50-80% less damage. Have an AoE attack. Cost: 150 minerals 150 gas.

Not to mention the AI will auto target the fortress instead of the repairing SCVs, so you'd have to target them all individually while getting blasted away unless you have enough DPS to take it down or hope mutas do the job - or even tier 3 units... or might be able to fungal growth SCVs since you should outrange the PF.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145719

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg

You can stop whining now.

Yes, with this 500 Gas worth of Muta can kill 200 Gas worth of thors. Nevermind that Terran also spams marines (lol mules) which shred muta, and that in any real situation a lot of the muta would start shooting random shit on the ground instead of the thors because you told them just to hold position.

EDIT: some gorgeous nydus play. you've just gotta be korean to pull it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tew8s9hM ... _embedded#!

This is just proof that Korea has shitty players the same as everywhere else. Any retard builds a pylon back there to spot for this, had he done that it would have been a useless nydus. The protoss player also doesn't bother to micro the stalkers at all against the roaches. Stalkers absolutely shred roaches when microed.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Or your opponent needs to be blind. It would have taken all of 1 zealot patrolling inside that steam vent once in a while to stop that. And all the following ones could have been stopped by either the probes or stalkers easily.

I'll have to run into someone halfway competent in a ZvT matchup to see what all the rage is about. Most of my zerg games so far have ended either with the initial ling rush or a flight of mutas following up against an opponent gearing up for a ground war.

The main zerg advantage seems to be the queen + larva thing. For 150 minerals you get the equivelant of 1.5 hatcheries in larva production. Which is insane. It'd be like if toss chrono boost added 150% build speed instead. Between that and only needing minimal investment for tech to spam anything you can make, as opposed to a pile of stargates or worse yet, factories/starports + attendant addons. Having 7 mutas pop up when a spire is finished vs 1 or 2 vikings pop out after your starport is finished is a major difference. On top of that, the reinforcements can't be stemmed by killing supply or buildings or anything- eggs are nigh invincible and don't need anything to finish hatching. Games can easily be won or lost because of the difference between needing a split second of a spire being finished to make a significant air force vs needing 60 seconds for a starport to make a banshee without having either it or it's tech lab destroyed.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I added you and SMA if either of you guys want to hop on and have a match.

 

[Antihero]

vs needing 60 seconds for a starport to make a banshee without having either it or it's tech lab destroyed.

I'd need to check again, but once a unit is in production does it still need its tech lab to finish? I just recall a game against protoss once where I destroyed the fleet beacon but they were still able to get a mothership out they had in production. I checked the replay and that was the only one. 'Course, that's just one unit unlike how many a zerg can create at once.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I'm not certain. Addons might also work differently than normal tech buildings.

But yeah, my main point was the fact that the zerg can spit out the whole lot at once, like toss warp gates but even nastier. Terran are the only race bogged down by the build queue, and toss are too for air/robotics stuff. Zerg are the only race that can go from producing a wave of 14 lings to a wave of 7 mutalisks or hydralisks in under a minute with so little resources tied up in structures.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

The main zerg advantage seems to be the queen + larva thing. For 150 minerals you get the equivelant of 1.5 hatcheries in larva production. Which is insane. It'd be like if toss chrono boost added 150% build speed instead. Between that and only needing minimal investment for tech to spam anything you can make, as opposed to a pile of stargates or worse yet, factories/starports + attendant addons. Having 7 mutas pop up when a spire is finished vs 1 or 2 vikings pop out after your starport is finished is a major difference. On top of that, the reinforcements can't be stemmed by killing supply or buildings or anything- eggs are nigh invincible and don't need anything to finish hatching. Games can easily be won or lost because of the difference between needing a split second of a spire being finished to make a significant air force vs needing 60 seconds for a starport to make a banshee without having either it or it's tech lab destroyed.

Yeah, but you have to remember to spawn larva every single 40s. Keep in mind that in SC1 Zerg could fast expand and get an extra hatchery while at the same time in SC2 the Zerg would still be building their Queen. It certainly helps the Swarm, but its nothing like the buffs the other races got.

Terran have tanks that now never overkill (which is like a 300% damage increase against zerg and prevents you from getting them to FF themselves much), Terran marine HP went from 40 to 55 while they start with the range upgrade already on, Medivacs rock, Marauders rape, etc. Then Mules give an extra 200 minerals a minute for every CC in the map. And as nasty as a Zerg tech swapping to muta instantly sounds, Terran has to make 1 Thor to counter all of them, then make cheap mineral-only turrets around the base to defend it entirely.

Protoss can warp shit in everywhere. And 90% of a protoss force is going to be Zealot/Stalker/Templar in most matchups anyway. Void rays are silly ridiculous if the enemy doesn't scout them (particularly against Zerg who HAS NO AA UNTIL T2). And the robotic facility units are all awesome, needing only 2 or 3 immortals or colossi to completely turn a battle around.

Meanwhile Hydralisks lost about 50% of their speed, there are no Defilers or Lurkers, and our Overlords don't detect. :/. It feels like the other races (specifically Terran) kept most of the best units they had, their other ones got replaced/improved. The Zerg, on the other hand, only really have the broodlord as an improvement on their SC1 tech. Everything else is worse except faster speedlings. Ironically, next to the Queen the biggest buff Zerg got was probably the better worker logic for mineral mining since they generally have more bases with less saturation on each.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Yeah, I'm not trying to argue it's all nice and balanced or anything, I'm just saying if you're looking for zerg strengths, it's their adaptability more than anything. The awesomeness of seige tanks is irrelevant if you only built one factory. Just because of the way zerg work, they're better focused on catching people off guard than any other race. How much value that has is debatable, but you can't argue it's not their advantage.

 

[kingcomrade]

only really have the broodlord as an improvement on their SC1 tech

Except they are an upgrade for corruptors which are not terribly useful units (you dont have a bunch lying around typically). I'd rather have muta->guardian back.

I'm just saying if you're looking for zerg strengths, it's their adaptability more than anything.

Terran can adapt faster. All you need to do to swap tech trees is to move a few buildings onto different add-ons. Then you have all the production capacity you had before. Zerg are so locked in by available larvae.

they're better focused on catching people off guard than any other race.

Something they did great in BW, and not really in SC2.

 

[MetalCraze]

I'm playing CoH now. It has a much better gameplay than SC2

 

[Zed]

upload your replay, I wanna see!

 

[attackfighter]

I like how all these tips can easily be learned after 1 hour of gameplay yet are still being praised as "informative" and "quality thread material". Typical SC2 fanboy discussion, I might as well be browsing Blizzard's forums for all the difference it makes.

Terran can adapt faster. All you need to do to swap tech trees is to move a few buildings onto different add-ons. Then you have all the production capacity you had before. Zerg are so locked in by available larvae.

Zerg macro: one structure can build every zerg unit
Terran macro: the units are split over 3 structures and many require tech labs to be built

Terran is SOOOOO much more flexible huh...

they're better focused on catching people off guard than any other race.

Something they did great in BW, and not really in SC2.

Care to explain why, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

My expert opinion: Zerg retains the ability to suicide it's army and immediately rebuild with a different unit composition. This has gotten better since SC1 because hard counters makes xtreme unit composition more important.

 

[kingcomrade]

I played my first placement match and I won! He tried to photon cannon rush me, I defended with my drones and then just killed him with zerglings.

Care to explain why, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

Zerg units aren't very good. It doesn't matter what you're building, most basic tier 1 units counter your units.

Terran is SOOOOO much more flexible huh...

It's true, I'm sorry you're too noob to understand.

Zerg retains the ability to suicide it's army and immediately rebuild with a different unit composition.

It doesn't matter. Terran armies almost completely counter all of your forces, so it doesn't matter what you build. Marines beat zerglings and mutas, marauders beat roaches. It's super easy for T to build a mix of both. You can switch between all the different units but it won't matter, T can just out-macro you (due to not being reliant on larvae) and just kill your units no matter what you build.

 

[Antihero]

I like how all these tips can easily be learned after 1 hour of gameplay yet are still being praised as "informative" and "quality thread material". Typical SC2 fanboy discussion, I might as well be browsing Blizzard's forums for all the difference it makes.

Did I miss this starting as a "post awesome strategies guys" thread?

My expert opinion: Zerg retains the ability to suicide it's army and immediately rebuild with a different unit composition. This has gotten better since SC1 because hard counters makes xtreme unit composition more important.

My inexpert opinion: makes more sense if you're at 200/200 and have a crapton of larvae and resources piling up. Maybe you're saying you can then make up for the loss with your "xtreme" hard counter (thanks to the freed up pop), but any specific examples? Even if you're a base ahead, how much should you have to waste? Zerg units may be somewhat more expendable but they're not free and larvae don't grow on trees.

 

[kingcomrade]

If what you say is true then it should be impossible for zerg to win, yet they don't, ergo you are a lying moro

No, your ergo is wrong, so you're a lying moron.

 

[attackfighter]

If what you say is true then it should be impossible for zerg to win, yet they don't, ergo you are a lying moro

No, your ergo is wrong, so you're a lying moron.

I don't think you grasp the meaning of the word.

 

[Antihero]

Maybe if not that comp then another, but I could just see that one costing too much gas and time when they could roll over your bases meanwhile.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

I played my first placement match and I won! He tried to photon cannon rush me, I defended with my drones and then just killed him with zerglings.

For all of attackfighter's stupidity, he is dead on about the average SC2 player skill-wise. If you can beat the campaign on brutal you can manage at least platinum. 75% of the players in platinum and mid-low diamond probably got there cannon rushing or other shit and have no fucking clue how to play even decently once the game gets past that time frame.

Care to explain why, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

Zerg units aren't very good. It doesn't matter what you're building, most basic tier 1 units counter your units.

Terran is SOOOOO much more flexible huh...

It's true, I'm sorry you're too noob to understand.

The problem is more that Terran units don't need large numbers to hard counter. You can make 20 Muta all at once, but all the Terran has to do is make about 4 turrets and a few thors. You can use banelings against MMM forces, but they can just stim and run away while shooting. You can make roaches... why the hell would you make roaches when Marauders can eat them for breakfast, I don't know. Pretty much the only decent zerg units are Hydra (slow as fuck and requires something else to draw most of the fire), Ultralisks (T3 and expensive), or Broodlords (same as ultra, but slower and susceptible to viking rape). And those units, at best, are equally cost effective as the terran units.

My inexpert opinion: makes more sense if you're at 200/200 and have a crapton of larvae and resources piling up. Even if you're a base ahead, how much should you have to waste?

yes that happens in the late game when the zerg's maxed. I don't watch a lot of SC2 VoDs so I don't know if it's actually viable (mainly cause idk when zerg maxes relative to terran), but it should be possible to do something along the lines of: make lots of ultra/hydra/roach ---> force terran to get lots of marauders/tanks ---> suicide force ---> switch to muta before terran has sufficient AA

It doesn't happen much because the only units Zerg has that can stand up to a fight late game against a balanced terran force (IE having counters to everything) are Ultralisks and Broodlords. Both of those take well over a minute to morph. Even assuming you have infinite cash to replenish forces, when terran wins 200 vs 200, they have a good 45s before you are replenished and thats all they need to take out a base or two. In BW, you were able to use cheaper T1/T2 units under dark swarm. Those units were buildable in 20s, so by the time one large battle ended you already had the units you morphed in at the beginning ready to use. But just you try using the same Zerglings and Hydralisks in SC2, Terran will laugh his fucking ass off when you end up 60/200 and he's sitting at 180/200. You have to use those costly T3 units to stand a chance.

Thankfully, in 200 vs 200 Zerg does actually stand a chance late game, and if they win Terran faces a similar fate.

 

[attackfighter]

Maybe if not that comp then another, but I could just see that one costing too much gas and time when they could roll over your bases meanwhile.

If you max before the Terran then rebuilding isn't too much of a concern, and ideally you'd do a fair amount of damage while suiciding your army so he wouldn't be able to counter-attack.

The problem is more that Terran units don't need large numbers to hard counter. You can make 20 Muta all at once, but all the Terran has to do is make about 4 turrets and a few thors. You can use banelings against MMM forces, but they can just stim and run away while shooting. You can make roaches... why the hell would you make roaches when Marauders can eat them for breakfast, I don't know. Pretty much the only decent zerg units are Hydra (slow as fuck), Ultralisks (T3 and expensive), or Broodlords (same as ultra, but slower and susceptible to viking rape). And those units, at best, are equally cost effective as the terran units.

The same's true for brood war, I'm a terran player and pretty much all my game results show the zerg (or protoss) expending atleast 10,000 more resources than me. This is a major reason why I think SC2 players are retarded, they obsess over balance on a unit vs. unit basis while ignoring more important things, like who can take more bases or tech faster. It doesn't matter if zerg units are 20% worse if zerg gets 20% more income.

t doesn't happen much because the only units Zerg has that can stand up to a fight late game against a balanced terran force (IE having counters to everything) are Ultralisks and Broodlords. Both of those take well over a minute to morph. Even assuming you have infinite cash to replenish forces, when(/if) terran wins 200 vs 200, they have a good 45s before you are replenished and thats all they need to take out a base or two. In BW, you were able to use cheaper T1/T2 units under dark swarm. Those units were buildable in 20s, so by the time one large battle ended you already had the units you morphed in at the beginning ready to use. But just you try using the same Zerglings and Hydralisks in SC2, Terran will laugh his fucking ass off when you end up 60/200 and he's sitting at 180/200. You have to use those costly T3 units to stand a chance.

Like I said I don't watch a lot of SC2 games so if that can happen in a regular game I guess you're right.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

The same's true for brood war, I'm a terran player and pretty much all my game results show the zerg (or protoss) expending atleast 10,000 more resources than me. This is a major reason why I think SC2 players are retarded, they obsess over balance on a unit vs. unit basis while ignoring more important things, like who can take more bases or tech faster. It doesn't matter if zerg units are 20% worse if zerg gets 20% more income.

See my prior comment about the mere fact that reapers exist throttling the Zerg economy for the first half of the game. Used to be some Zergs were ballsy enough to take TWO expansions BEFORE SPAWNING POOL on certain maps. In SC2 taking an expansion before 20-25 supply is instant death against reapers.

Throughout the rest of the game, Zerg has to deal with the fact that they have no air superiority whatsoever, because lol vikings fuck everything up, and once they do have air superiority they switch into ground worker rape mode. Its like, imagine PvZ in SC1 where protoss has corsairs that have 9 range and could switch into ground mode to roast your drones. And if they aren't using Vikings (possibly because you realize trying to maintain air superiority is futile and don't even try), its MMM drops which only take out your expansions faster. Overall, Terran is simply much more mobile and can extend further across the map to attack you because there is much less risk of you simply running past them and straight into their base.

Also, Terran's have Mules.
Basically, every OC they have adds an extra 5 SCVs worth of mining that can never be stopped. Mid-Late game terran can lose 75% of their SCVs mining minerals and hardly blink because they have 5 OCs spamming free mules (which also cost no supply, so Terran has more supply for their army at the 200/200 point). Meanwhile, every drone that Zerg loses takes away not only income, but also larva you need to reinforce your army.

 

[ScottishMartialArts]

upload your replay, I wanna see!

The KC v SMA matches? Sure, point me to a good upload site and I'll do it.

Edit -- Here you go: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=S1NHDOY8