Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Does CD Projekt underpay and abuse its developers?

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Socialism/communism is a societal consequence of the desire to drag down those who you feel are above you. it's a symptom really, kinda like penis envy.
Socialism is about creating equal opportunities and access to services in spite of one's economical background. Because usually it's hard for people who have issues to sustain their existence to pay extra for good education that can translates into getting a better job. Same goes for the healthcare when the healthcare is private. Communism is more about changing the direction of production to fulfill human needs directly, rather than serving as means to print money for the few who own the means of production.
Does it mean that socialism/communism is all good/cure for all problems? No, it has its own problems. But it is certainly less petty ideology than you're willing to give it credit.
Marxism surely is petty alone due to the fact that it is in denial of realities of economics and human nature and biology. And Reality is the only measure upon we divide useful ideologies (idea - logos) from idiotologies (idiotes - logos) that only idiots are willing to entertain in their mind.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,898
Marxism surely is petty alone due to the fact that it is in denial of realities of economics and human nature and biology.
So idealism is petty? That's a first.

And Reality is the only measure upon we divide useful ideologies (idea - logos) from idiotologies (idiotes - logos) that only idiots are willing to entertain in their mind.
Please don't tell that to the philosophers, Mr Borg. They'd be shattered to learn they are idiots for willing to entertain their minds with ideas that may or may be not useful.

pheeeew, dodged a bullet there, could have fooled me.
Indeed. It's very likely your inability to realize that people can have more complex thought patterns is common in your life. But I am certain that this realization quickly fades. Until the next time someone reminds you of that fact by doing or saying something you wouldn't have thought of thinking or doing yourself.
 

Drowed

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2011
Messages
1,679
Location
Core City
The problem with these debates about "capitalism" or "socialism" (and both need quotation maks here) is that long before they are economic systems, they are an ethical issue. People on the right or on the left, who are actually labels that superficially try to tell how libertarian or authoritarian a person is (both in the economic sense and in the individual freedoms sense), are people who adopt different ethical principles. And so, in essence, they will never agree on economic issues because they both start from different premises.

A basic question like "who owns this piece of land" has absurdly different answers depending on who is going to answer this question. In fact, the very question of whether one can actually even own anything beyond one's own body and autonomy already has very different answers. Since several other points are just consequences of these initial positions, it is not surprising that both look at each other as if they were both stupid. Of fucking course the conversation is impossible, you're not even starting from the same principles.

And something that does not help at all is the fact that the economy does not follow ethical principles. At all. The economy is a system of its own that is nothing more than the interaction of several autonomous and independent (or interdependent in certain cases) entities. The market is "alive", and does not necessarily respond by following the ideas of those who try to determine the rule for it. Trying to tamper with the market is almost always like trying to control an ecosystem: 90% of the time you have no idea of what possible consequences are, and in some years you will have to deal with an insect infestation that you have no idea where it came from. But the shit is on everywhere.

For example, in my country they are trying to pass a law that tries to put a ceiling on the annual interest rate. Which sounds great for anyone who wants to get a loan, after all now he knows exactly how much he's going to pay and will not be "exploited" by the banks, right? Well, that's great and all, but my question is, if you're a bank, would you even want to give someone a loan on those terms? Statistically, in my country, only 20% of debts are actually paid in the end. That means that of every $100 taken out on loan or on credit, only $20 returns to the bank. Now ask yourself the question: who pays the difference? If you think for a moment, you know the answer. So now you should ask yourself, who would you want to offer credit for, on those terms?

This not to mention the obvious difference between wealth and income. The owner of a restaurant chain may have a wealth close to a few tens of millions, easily. But his annual income may be no more than tens of thousands. So when someone is going to talk about taxes, before even talking about what would or would not be fair or ethical you need at least to understand the difference between these two things. And again, understand the situation from the other side's point of view - because there's a person there, not a block of cement. If you say to the person, "I'll take 60% of your wealth," what's the first thing you'd probably think? I don't know about you, but no doubt I would think "well, is there any other place with someone who wouldn't take 60% of my wealth"?

Let's remember that wealth isn't income. If you create a situation where it is more advantageous for a person to close their businesses and get all the money to invest in applications in another country... What do you think the person will do? I know of cases of people who literally renounce their citizenship/nationality to protect their resources from their country of origin. Again, the economy is alive, you can't expect all entities to just bow their heads and follow one rule just because you think it's more or less fair. Unless there is global coordination among all countries with simultaneous changes in their respective economic systems, the effects of one change in one place will create pressures that favor or disfavor certain behaviors. And this leads the government to become more and more authoritarian, to try to control the leak of resources.

But hey, I'm sure everyone here is an economic graduate with dozens of years of experience and knows that their respective countries are a blessing to humanity and have led everyone into a glorious future.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Marxism surely is petty alone due to the fact that it is in denial of realities of economics and human nature and biology.
So idealism is petty? That's a first.
Depends on which idealsm (classical, christian or modern (subjective, objective or transcendental..or...absolut - dialectical idealsim)) you assert here, but averall yes.
I will point here out that Marx was opposed to german idealists (like Hegels) and believed that dialectics should deal with material world and economics instead of ideas. Therefore idealism is not quite right here applied since it also relies on "a prior" state which Marxism is aslo not found off.
Hence Engels diamat.
Still the phenomena comes before the its perception and not "esse est percipi" and therefore reality still is, even before and after human was.

And Reality is the only measure upon we divide useful ideologies (idea - logos) from idiotologies (idiotes - logos) that only idiots are willing to entertain in their mind.
Please don't tell that to the philosophers, Mr Borg. They'd be shattered to learn they are idiots for willing to entertain their minds with ideas that may or may be not useful.
Any idea that contains contradiction with itself and is in contradiction with the reality, is per se to be discarded. And now you also know why science is no longer called by scientist "Philosophiae Naturalis".

The cheapest science is the formal science of Mathematics, because you need paper, pencil and rubber. But Philosophy (the elaborated practice of shiting ideas out) is cheaper, because you do not need even the rubber.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,898
Depends on which idealsm (classical, christian or modern (subjective, objective or transcendental..or...absolut - dialectical idealsim)) you assert here, but averall yes.
Correct me if I am wrong, but do you misunderstood the word "petty" I used in the context of "dragging down those who you feel are above you"? Because while I can agree that most ideologies are rendered inoperable by crashing into the problem of human nature, that's not really a discussion about the viability of communism, as much as it is about pointing out bias. Still, I appreciate the effort. It's more than I can say about some people.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
Depends on which idealsm (classical, christian or modern (subjective, objective or transcendental..or...absolut - dialectical idealsim)) you assert here, but averall yes.
Correct me if I am wrong, but do you misunderstood the word "petty" I used in the context of "dragging down those who you feel are above you"? Because while I can agree that most ideologies are rendered inoperable by crashing into the problem of human nature, that's not really a discussion about the viability of communism, as much as it is about pointing out bias. Still, I appreciate the effort. It's more than I can say about some people.
So it seems that the witt has gone past you.
It is not important for what i wrote that you mean, that "But it is certainly less petty ideology than you're willing to give it credit." equals "dragging down those who you feel are above you".
What i say is that Marxism is a petty idiotology as in narrow minded, ridiculous, inferior and unimportant (for the rising of the mankind).
And what i correct in the last post is, that Marxism is not a "petty ( dialectical ) idealism" (G.W.F. Hegel) but a "petty (as in narrow minded, ridiculous, inferior ) dialectical materialism" or short diamat (Marx and Engels).
 

odrzut

Arcane
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
1,082
Location
Poland
This political debate (socialism vs capitalism) is vapid. Everybody in the world agrees the right answer is a mix of the two, you're spliting hairs and invoking long words over whether it should be 40-60 or 60-40 mix.
 

Semiurge

Cipher
Joined
Apr 11, 2020
Messages
6,280
Location
Asp Hole
Neither am I. "It's the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it".

So idealism is petty? That's a first.

We're all idealists, more or less, but in time we learn to distinguish what is applicable and what can never be. No society will ever be free of exploitation no matter the vigilance, it's simply a result of human resourcefulness, greed (gathering resources of your own that won't be shared with anyone else), and the tendency to veer towards hierarchies - see red China.
 
Last edited:

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,898
We're all idealists, more or less, but in time we learn to distinguish what is applicable and what can never be.
I agree with the first. Not so sure about the second. Many people are so focused on the [perfect] idea they have in their mind that they don't take into consideration all the issues - both forseen and forseen - that can arise and throw off their vision. In most cases it takes a failure of the implementation for them to realize that their idea isn't as applicable as they thought it would be.

No society will ever be free of exploitation no matter the vigilance, it's simply a result of human resourcefulness, greed (gathering resources of your own that won't be shared with anyone else), and the tendency to veer towards hierarchies - see red China.
I'd say that's the result of systems we've put into place, but in general I agree with you on this.
 

Azdul

Magister
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
3,420
Location
Langley, Virginia
That's before we get into references. Do you want no job for the rest of your life because no one will refer you because you walked from one dev job? You can piss and moan about work conditions all you want but if a potential employer calls up a previous place of work. I garentee they'll call you an annoying, lazy arsehole who doesn't deserve work in the industry. And word travels fast.
It is a small industry, and employers do not need or want to ask their competition about potential employee. There are enough other ways to find out if someone is annoying, lazy arsehole. Gossips are usually spread by employees, not employers.

Walking away from the job once or twice over 10 years is definitely not seen as red flag. Sticking to the job you hate so long that you're no longer productive is much worse.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,144
I don't know. The more I read about CDPR's treatment of employees it seems like there are two key factors at play here: new western hires being unable to get accustomed to different standard and company not used to playing ball with HR on top of management issues. How long was it into Witcher 3's development until they actually got HR as a department to manage 100+ employees? Not to mention based on what we hear from other corners of the industry this supposed abuse seems to be the norm as budget goes up. Poland at least pays overtime, I guess.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
Zionist Agent Vatnik
Joined
May 3, 2020
Messages
24,967
Location
Reichskommissariat Russland ᛋᛋ
Poland at least pays overtime, I guess.
Afaik, Poland has working social security and good labour laws. The fact that commies in Poland were toppled by Solidarnosc, a worker union, probably has something to do with that.
Mate of my mate is working in software in Poland. Work is good, money are good, he likes it THIS much and doesn't want to come back at all.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,575
Holy cow, it's been a long time since I've read a thread with such a high number of posts completely detached from reality. And that concerns both "sides".

Law and reality are two completely different things in a country like Poland (I guess it extends to every other place in the world, but I won't pretend I have much experience on that). It is absolutely common to be doing unpaid overtime. Also, I have lost most of the game industry contacts over the last couple of years so I'm not super up to date, but I would treat the stories about exorbitant cdp salaries with a pinch of salt. I'm sure there are privileged people there, especially when it comes to experienced people brought in from abroad, but for your average bloke the adventure with game development would be rather unappealing compared to other choices you can make.

And I'm fairly sure the people raising shitstorm in the internet are mostly low-paid, low-skill workers, this is always the case with companies that are big enough to exist in the overall working market conscience.
 

Darkzone

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
2,323
So it seems that the witt has gone past you.
I am going to hold you responsible for that.
Yeah hold someone else responsible for your lack of knowledge of philosophy. But at least make this on the responsible ones, like your parents, teachers and school system.

What i say is that Marxism is a petty idiotology as in narrow minded, ridiculous, inferior and unimportant (for the rising of the mankind).
Elaborate, because at this point this sounds like technobabble.
To quote one famous japanese mystic: Kane!
Who pays me for your education? Who pays me for wasting my time?
First learn what the philosophy of idealism is and what is materialism. Then understand why they are mutually exclusive. Then learn what method the dialectic is and how it works or doesn't work. Then write here a nice essay about it. And then i will teach you why applying a faulty method to a bad and wrong data set (premise) results in a wrong conclusion.
 
Last edited:

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
4,898
Yeah hold someone else responsible for your lack of knowledge of philosophy.
If you are the one making a joke - as you admitted - then it's up to you to make sure it doesn't fall flat.

Who pays me for your education? Who pays me for wasting my time?
Well, I guess I will end this discussion right here then, so you can go and do something more profitable with your time.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
Crunching can affect the quality of the game. If you give too much of yourself then what will be left for the sequels? I think this might be a reason why sequels suck. You also don't want them to resent their job and especially video games. I bet soulless video games are in part also because the job sucks out the soul of developers if they work too much. You give and give and eventually there is nothing left but bitterness. If a game takes an extra 6 months to develop and costs a bit more but it lets developers actually breathe then so be it. We will probably all be better off.

Developers are people with families and lives too.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Developers are people
rating_citation.png
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
Chris Metzen said he had the most awesome job one could imagine but his family was neglected and his daughter was growing up without him and that was one of the reasons he retired. Most developers don't have that luxury. He is a genuinely good guy and he made the right choice. We all know how fatherless daughters and boys are likely to end up. Daughters end up having an Onlyfans account and boys become the simps or criminals. Just look at the black community in America.

Also, you can pretend to be redpilled and criticize modern civilization and single moms all you want but you are kind of a hypocrite if you support this. Children with fathers working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week are de facto fatherless. In fact, it is worse, because they will end up resenting him for neglecting them.

Do you really want broken people with broken families to make your games?
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom