Eternity Does Pillars of Eternity have feature parity with Baldur's Gate?

[Cryomancer]

every stat is important in a sense that dumping any stat will have significant mechanical consequences for any class and all classes rely on multiple stats for effective offense. This fact alone is enough for PoE to mog most RPG systems.

How homogenization is good? Having Wizards that are intellectual in lore and in gameplay, you able to play with a extremely low INT Wizard makes absolute no sense.

Is a problem that exists only in your

No, is not. Spell damage is determined by "might" and "might" is only used as STR in game dialogs and checks. So yes, in order to throw hotter fireballs, a Wizard must go to the gym...

 

[Fedora Master]

No matter how bad DnD is, at least it's not PoE.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

The great positive of PoE is that it has no romances and no cringe dialogues.

I don't like BG3 dialogues, but I think the dialogues in PoE are worse. Sure, they're not that "cringe" - they're just extremely dull, with tons of empty words.

I re-played PoE recently, and I found the texts not so bad as I remembered from my first playthrough. They are serviceable. Maybe it is because my expectations are very low now. I also skipped all the kickstarter filler.

These days I consider good something that it is simply non offensive. BG3 was a step to be a masterpiece. Some dialogue in BG3 are indeed very good, but they are buried under a layer of cringeness.

 

[MjKorz]

How homogenization is good? Having Wizards that are intellectual in lore and in gameplay, you able to play with a extremely low INT Wizard makes absolute no sense.

There is no homogenization, because each class relies on different attributes to a different degree. While all attributes are important and all classes suffer consequences for dumping any of them, this doesn't mean that every build you make is going to have the same attribute allocation.

Moreover, different classes start with different base values for accuracy and various defenses. This means that the percentile increment provided by each attribute point is class-dependent. In other words, pumping certain attributes is more valuable for certain classes, which, again, works to break homogeneity.

If you play a low intelligence character, you will not be roleplaying an intellectual simply because you will not be passing intelligence checks. Moreover, you will have crippling disadvantages as a low intelligence wizard regardless of your build, because even melee wizards want their summoned lance as well as defensive spells to last longer. For damage dealer and disabler wizards, intelligence plays an even greater role since you want to maximize the efficiency of each spell cast by making sure it hits more targets and lasts longer in the case of disablers.

No, is not. Spell damage is determined by "might" and "might" is only used as STR in game dialogs and checks. So yes, in order to throw hotter fireballs, a Wizard must go to the gym...

Yes, it is. Like I said: any mechanical behavior can be explained by appropriate lore. There is nothing inherently wrong with physical might determining the power of one's spells as long as it's explained by the in-game lore. In PoE, might determines both physical and spiritual strength. Whether you like it or not does not matter:

Spoiler

Might checks deal both with physical abilities and intimidation and intimidation is the ability to instill fear, something that goes beyond mere physical capability or appearance. So no, might is not used merely as the physical equivalent of strength.

 

[Roguey]

Deadfire was a commercial failure, sadly for Obsidian.

It made a profit and Sawyer bought a nice watch with the royalty check he got from it.

 

[Baron Tahn]

Well, not quite ever. It reminds me of the big game crash that was triggered by the E.T cartridge - tiny bit before my real gaming start but it was the straw that broke the camels back: endless reams of trash getting made, all the same old schtick, eventually people had enough of 2d platformers and the industry partially collapsed. The benefit then and possibly soon again is that the gaming industry had to try new things, which led to the rise of the golden age in some ways.

Lets hope its about to happen again, but these days Advertising and consumer habits might hold it off. Everyone still wants to make that endless live service money spinner with permanent customer retention...

 

[Cross]

But the actual companion quests in PoE are quite simplistic, nor do they reward you with new abilities or stat boosts like the companion "quests" in Mask of the Betrayer, Kotor 2 or PS:T.

The comparison wasn't between PoE and MotB (an expansion), Kotor 2 (a same-engine sequel), or Torment (a game that took advantage of all the work Bioware had already done with the Infinity Engine). It was between PoE and BG.

There's no excuse for the companion design in PoE to be so primitive with how much experience Obsidian had and the mechanics they developed in previous games, such as the influence system.
Kotor 2 and MoTB were developed in a year while PoE took almost 3 years.

BG has 102 spells, PoE has 162 by my count. And on top of that it has a whole bunch of talents and abilities that Bioware didn't have to bother with for AD&D

Most of the spells and abilities in PoE are interchangeable. "Petrification" in PoE is a generic stun effect that lasts for a few seconds, while being petrified in Baldur's Gate turns you into a statue, with all that entails. Mirror Image in PoE is a generic +defense buff, while in Baldur's Gate the mirror images can absorb individual attacks.

So while PoE has far more abilities and spells, few of them actually have unique effects, so much that even the first Baldur's Gate with its limited selection of AD&D spells and limited implementation of AD&D rules handily beats it when it comes to spell variety.

 

[Fedora Master]

"PoE has more options!*"

*To pick between the least shit ones

 

[Beans00]

How homogenization is good? Having Wizards that are intellectual in lore and in gameplay, you able to play with a extremely low INT Wizard makes absolute no sense.

There is no homogenization, because each class relies on different attributes to a different degree. While all attributes are important and all classes suffer consequences for dumping any of them, this doesn't mean that every build you make is going to have the same attribute allocation.

Moreover, different classes start with different base values for accuracy and various defenses. This means that the percentile increment provided by each attribute point is class-dependent. In other words, pumping certain attributes is more valuable for certain classes, which, again, works to break homogeneity.

If you play a low intelligence character, you will not be roleplaying an intellectual simply because you will not be passing intelligence checks. Moreover, you will have crippling disadvantages as a low intelligence wizard regardless of your build, because even melee wizards want their summoned lance as well as defensive spells to last longer. For damage dealer and disabler wizards, intelligence plays an even greater role since you want to maximize the efficiency of each spell cast by making sure it hits more targets and lasts longer in the case of disablers.

No, is not. Spell damage is determined by "might" and "might" is only used as STR in game dialogs and checks. So yes, in order to throw hotter fireballs, a Wizard must go to the gym...

Yes, it is. Like I said: any mechanical behavior can be explained by appropriate lore. There is nothing inherently wrong with physical might determining the power of one's spells as long as it's explained by the in-game lore. In PoE, might determines both physical and spiritual strength. Whether you like it or not does not matter:

Spoiler

Might checks deal both with physical abilities and intimidation and intimidation is the ability to instill fear, something that goes beyond mere physical capability or appearance. So no, might is not used merely as the physical equivalent of strength.

Another wall of text no one will read about a shit game lol.

 

[MjKorz]

I accept your seething concession.

 

[Roguey]

There's no excuse for the companion design in PoE to be so primitive with how much experience Obsidian had and the mechanics they developed in previous games, such as the influence system.

Sure there is. Different priorities because they were making everything from scratch and not using ready-to-go tools and engine. Deadfire expanded upon this heavily with the companion relationship system because they could now afford to spend the time on it.

"Petrification" in PoE is a generic stun effect that lasts for a few seconds

No it is not. https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Status_effects#List_of_afflictions

Mirror Image in PoE is a generic +defense buff, while in Baldur's Gate the mirror images can absorb individual attacks.

Mirrored Image gives you +25 deflection and it loses -5 deflection with each hit. Does any other spell work exactly like that in PoE? No.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yeah, petrify is a higher tier stun with some extra debuffs. PoE's affliction system is pretty robust and well thought out.

 

[Cross]

No it is not. https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Status_effects

Thanks for linking to the wiki which shows that "petrification" in PoE is a generic stun effect (with some debuffs) that lasts for a few seconds.

In Baldur's Gate petrification is permanent (unless countered by a stone to flesh spell) and being petrified means you can be shattered in 1 hit, making resurrection impossible. It's a unique effect with its own gameplay considerations. Nothing like it exists in PoE.

Mirrored Image gives you +25 deflection and it loses -5 deflection with each hit. Does any other spell work exactly like that in PoE? No.

Plenty of spells and abilities in PoE give a flat bonus to deflection, yes. However, there's nothing like how Mirror Image works in AD&D.

I just picked 2 random examples, but what I said applies to every spell and ability in PoE.

 

[Fedora Master]

More numbers = Better

 

[Roguey]

No it is not. https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Status_effects

Thanks for linking to the wiki which shows that "petrification" in PoE is a generic stun effect (with some debuffs) that lasts for a few seconds.

In Baldur's Gate petrification is permanent (unless countered by a stone to flesh spell) and being petrified means you can be shattered in 1 hit, making resurrection impossible. It's a unique effect with its own gameplay considerations. Nothing like it exists in PoE.

Mirrored Image gives you +25 deflection and it loses -5 deflection with each hit. Does any other spell work exactly like that in PoE? No.

Plenty of spells and abilities in PoE give a flat bonus to deflection, yes. However, there's nothing like how Mirror Image works in AD&D.

I just picked 2 random examples, but what I said applies to every spell and ability in PoE.

Spells like those would never exist in Pillars regardless of how much time and money Sawyer was given because they go against his design philosophy. Mirror Image is a no-brainer spell that lets your wizard ignore damage from multiple hits for the cost of a spell slot. Petrification is an all-or-nothing death spell that bypasses HP mechanics. This is a guy that was so opposed to hard counters that Pillars didn't even ship with creature immunities, only sky-high resistances.

Take a look at Deadfire where instead of adding spells with special effects like you wanted, he streamlined status effects even further https://pillarsofeternity.fandom.com/wiki/Status_effects_(Deadfire)

Petrified - Same as Paralyzed, but with a different visual

This isn't more primitive, just a different approach to systems, one you obviously don't like.

 

[Beans00]

Dude, I was watching paint dry the other day and I realized it was actually somehow more interesting than pillars of eternity.


Tacgnol , JarlFrank and I. 3 of the highest quality posters on the codex dissected Pillars. We all found they were lackluster games, sub par in fact.

 

[MjKorz]

Possibly retarded?

 

[Beans00]

Deadfire was a commercial failure, sadly for Obsidian.

It made a profit and Sawyer bought a nice watch with the royalty check he got from it.

https://www.thegamer.com/pillars-of-eternity-2-deadfire-huge-flop/
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/pillars-of-eternity-dev-says-deadfire-sales-were-l/1100-6471333/

Want to know how we know it flopped? No sequel. Cope about that however you need to, bowlcut. In fact it flopped so hard it tanked Obsidian's value so microsoft could buy them.


Now if Avowed(which looks like total shit), or Outer worlds 2( which will also be total shit) flop. Bye bye Obsidian.

 

[Cross]

Mirror Image is a no-brainer spell that lets your wizard ignore damage from multiple hits for the cost of a spell slot.

And? Enemies have access to the same spells.

Another reason why Mirror Image is more interesting in AD&D is because of how it interacts with other things. It's an illusion, so True Seeing gets rid of it. Multi-hit attacks like Magic Missile are ideal to dispose of multiple images at once. There are almost no interactions like that in PoE, because PoE is a more primitive game.

This isn't more primitive, just a different approach to systems, one you obviously don't like.

I am well aware of Sawyer's design philosophy, but I didn't mention it because I wanted to analyze his mechanics regardless of the (poorly thought-out) intentions behind them.

PoE is a more primitve game, for the reasons I outlined above.

 

[JarlFrank]

"Lackluster" and "subpar" are fitting descriptors, but honestly they still sound too exciting for how boring Pillars of Eternity actually is.

Calling it Pillows of Eternity really is the best way to capture its essence.

 

[Roguey]

https://www.thegamer.com/pillars-of-eternity-2-deadfire-huge-flop/
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/pillars-of-eternity-dev-says-deadfire-sales-were-l/1100-6471333/

Are you unfamiliar with the passage of time? It's not 2019 anymore, it kept making money since then.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/pillars-of-eternity-dev-says-deadfire-sales-were-l/1100-6471333/

Want to know how we know it flopped? No sequel. Cope about that however you need to, bowlcut. In fact it flopped so hard it tanked Obsidian's value so microsoft could buy them.

According to Avellone, getting bought was the other owners' goal from the very start. And according to Sawyer, they expressed interest in doing a sequel after BG3 proved a huge hit, but were unwilling to risk the amount of money behind it that they'd need to be competitive with BG3.

And? Enemies have access to the same spells.

That doesn't make it better.

Sawyer clearly prefers the Riot way, not the Valve way.

Another reason why Mirror Image is more interesting in AD&D is because of how it interacts with other things. It's an illusion, so True Seeing gets rid of it. Multi-hit attacks like Magic Missile are ideal to dispose of multiple images at once. There are almost no interactions like that in PoE, because PoE is a more primitive game.

There are no interactions like that because it goes against the design philosophy.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

And Riot way works better, if you're making a competetive multiplayer game. Otherwise, balancing OP shit with another OP shit, just ends up being more fun to play around with.

Sawyer probably thinks himself a medieval German alchemist who is precisely fine tuning abilities and adjusting mintuate percentages while staring into philosopher's stone, but it doesn't matter dick if your end product is boring.

 

[JarlFrank]

There are no interactions like that because it goes against the design philosophy.

Then the design philosophy is objectively SHIT because it prevents fun and complex systemic interactions from happening.

 

[dutchwench]

"A: Why doesn't the game have this interesting interaction?
B: Because of the design philosophy.
A: Okay, well, here's another fun interaction that other games pulled off. Why not this one?
B: Because it goes against the design philosophy."

 

[MjKorz]

Interactions like that don't exist in PoE, because PoE is a more primitive game.

Nonsense, PoE magic system completely mogs AD&D for one specific reason: spell synergy.

Most spells in PoE inflict multiple attribute and/or defense debuffs on top of their primary effect. This makes subsequent applications of appropriate other spells easier, creating not just spell synergy, but also enabling entire spell chains where application of subsequent spells becomes easier and easier.

For example, you could cast Ryngrim's Enervating Terror (Will-targeting AoE spell) on high Fortitude targets, inflicting Weakened and Terrified. The Weakened condition makes the targets vulnerable to sneak attack and also debuffs their Fortitude and Will by 20. Since the targets' Fortitude is now debuffed, you can apply AoE Blindness via Fortitude-targeting Chill Fog spell, further debuffing the targets with -25 Accuracy, -20 Deflection and -20 Reflex. Since the Reflex of the targets has been debuffed, you can now apply the AoE Prone condition to targets via Reflex-targeting Slicken spell. Thus, you create an entire chain of debuffs/disables where each spell cast penetrates defenses with progressing ease.

Spell interactions in BG are primitive garbage compared to PoE. Your only AoE tool to debuff saves is Greater Malison and the passive -2 bonus specialist mages get to overcome enemy saves. Moreover, spell saves aren't even split into Reflex/Fortitude/Will in BG and rely on a single generalized Spell save which prevents the player from intelligently targeting weak saves with appropriate spells.

In short, you have to be an absolute brainless moron to even think BG spell interaction is anywhere close to PoE.