Eternity Does Pillars of Eternity have feature parity with Baldur's Gate?

[Beans00]

Most dangerous enemies in baldurs gate: Dragons or vampires or beholders or some shit

Most dangerous enemy in Pillars of eternity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boredom

 

[MjKorz]

The overbalancing of CC spells made everything you casted feel samy and uninpactful. Nobody wants to cast a net and have targets move 10% slower.

Something that never happened. What actually happened was CC spells becoming more multi-faceted and designed to interact with each other and the retards never caught on how they work so they think the spells are "weak". In truth, debuffs and disables are devastating in both Deadfire and PoE1.

And not every class needs dozens of active abilities in a RTWP.

Highly subjective and controversial opinion. Martials being reduced to auto-attack bots creates a massive disparity between them and casters in terms of tactical flexibility, something everyone already saw in DnD 3e and 3.5e. Later editions of DnD and even Pathfinder moved away from this design and gave martials plenty of combat maneuvers, allowing them to inflict various debuffing and disabling effects on enemies. At the same time, casters were never made obsolete or weak, because they still retained their powerful AoE debuffs and disabling spells.

And I don't even want to speak about the atrocious concept of int barbarians and might wizards.

Provide one argument, preferably one that I haven't destroyed in this thread already so that I wouldn't have to repeat myself, why you think it's bad. And no, "I don't liek it herpaderp" is not an argument.

They should have stopped trying to improve on stuff nobody asked for

Original kickstarter goal included the design of a new RPG system, which was exactly what Sawyer delivered. If nobody "asked" for this, why did they fund a game with such a goal?

 

[Cryomancer]

so they think the spells are "weak"

Imagine this in another genre. Imagine that milsims become "dead" for decades, and someone decides to make an "Arma 3 inspired game," but in this game, instead of GM6 Lynx with APDS ammo being able to destroy you with the best body armor inside a BMP-3, it now can't pierce even unarmored vehicles, has only 500 m/s muzzle velocity speed. Or in a racing game, picking the most popular cars and making a freaking Ferrari taking 3 minutes to go from zero to 60 kpmh. People who liked using such "tools" in older games wouldn't appreciate being now unable to do cool shit that they could do in the past and will find using "worse" weapons, spells, vehicles, etc boring. The tactical depth, is irrelevant.

If Maybe Avowed with the same spell mechanics picking another audience would't be perceived as boring, but for me, PoE 1/2 is boring.

Look to this OwlCat senior developer : "much more important than balance is fun" (1:43:06)


She is 100% right.

Martials being reduced to auto-attack bots creates a massive disparity between them and casters in terms of tactical flexibility, something everyone already saw in DnD 3e and 3.5e.

Yes and no, casters are ridiculously powerful in 3.5e because, compared to AD&D:

• They level up as fast as any other class.
• Has much more HP (con mod)
• Learn spells automatically on LV up; no need to find scrolls and roll to learn.
• Less enemies with nasty anti-caster defenses like Hakeashar
• Much more spell slots. For example, a 14th-level magic user in AD&D can cast two 6th-tier spells and one 7th-tier spell. In 3.5e, 3 tier 6 and 2 tier 7 + the bonus from INT.
• (...)

But again, it is not only spells that are lackluster in Pillars. Magical weapons are also trash.

Later editions of DnD and even Pathfinder moved away from this design and gave martials plenty of combat maneuvers, allowing them to inflict various debuffing and disabling effects on enemies

Like 4e?

4e is as balanced as Sawyer could want. And is the shittiest TT game ever.

Sorry but I think that the problem of "op too versatile casters" was solved in other RPGs like GURPS, World of Darkness(MtA and VtM) and some retroclones much better than D&D 4e.

Original kickstarter goal included the design of a new RPG system, which was exactly what Sawyer delivered.

People brought expecting a game like BG1/2, got a game like D&D 4E and didn't brought the sequel. This is why Deadfire failed. Wanna know the most popular mod for NWN2? Spell fixes. It removes the nerfs in NWN2 and make the game more akin to 3.5e.

_____________________

TL;DR - If there was a mod to make spells and game mechanics more old school in design, it would be the most popular mod for Pillars 1/2.

 

[MjKorz]

Yes, they are weak.

No, they aren't weak. Saying something doesn't make it true. Provide an argument: why are they weak? They're actually devastating, usually inflict more than one debuff that your entire party can benefit from and interact with subsequent debuffs/disables, allowing for progressively easier penetration of defenses.

Take for example the Blind effect that was already mentioned: -4 Perception, -25 Accuracy, -20 Deflection, -20 Reflex. That's a -29 Accuracy debuff total in a game where Fighters - the class with the highest base Accuracy, start with 30 Accuracy lmao. For other classes like Wizards it's even worse. And unlike DnD/Pathfinder that have many ways of negating Blindness with spells and feats such as Blind Fight, you can't get rid of PoE Blindness that easily. The -20 Deflection bonus is far more devastating than losing DEX to AC, because not only it increases chance to hit against the target, but also chance to crit, unless we're talking about some DnD DEX-based tank, but, again, there are plenty of ways of countering blindness in DnD. Not so in PoE. Finally, the -20 Reflex debuff is massive in terms of reducing enemy chance of resisting Reflex-targeting status effects such as Prone. The DnD/Pathfinder version is a joke compared to the PoE version.

Alternatively, take a look at the PoE Prone effect: -10 Deflection -10 Reflex, -2 Dexterity, enables Sneak Attack. DnD 3.5e Prone does not enable sneak attack against the target, because the target is not considered Flat-Footed. The -4 AC dedbuff applied against a Prone target when targeted in melee does not increase the chance to crit the said Prone target while in PoE it does. And ranged attackers actually lose accuracy against Prone targets in 3.5e DnD. Reflex debuff for Prone targets does not exist in DnD either.

I don't care if you can do a lot of number autism to win encounters.

So you don't care to learn the system and then you talk about the system you know nothing about?

I like when things have impact

PoE status effects have more than enough impact, in many cases more impact than the DnD/Pathfinder versions.

Magical weapons are also trash.

Quite the opposite, magical weapons in Pillars are usually far more powerful than their DnD/Pathfinder counterparts for one simple reason: the effects they apply scale with the wielder's Accuracy while in DnD/Pathfinder weapon effects usually have relatively low DC. Again, complete lack of game knowledge.

Like 4e?

Like 5e. And besides, only a retard would dismiss the entirety of 4e as a failure.

 

[Beans00]

I'm not the biggest fan of kingmaker, but it blows pillows out of the water. Lol.

 

[Cryomancer]

nly a retard would dismiss the entirety of 4e as a failure.

Well, was great. For Paizo.

Jokes aside, how many hours you have in the "braindead owlcat games" and how many in Pillars 1/2?

I'm not the biggest fan of kingmaker, but it blows pillows out of the water. Lol.

Yep. I just wish that OwlCat had hired a guy like Pierre(knights of the chalice) to design encounters in their game. Encounter design is imo the greatest problem with Kangmaker, but the game still much better than Pillows.

 

[MjKorz]

Jokes aside, how many hours you have in the "braindead owlcat games" and how many in Pillars 1/2?

2.6k hours over all 3 Owlclown games and 800 hours over 2 Pillars games, but quantity != quality.

1 hour of prime Sawyerludo is roughly equivalent to 4 hours of banal shit boring Owlslop.

 

[Roguey]

Later sales numbers say nothing about the completion rate. People bought it on sale, played for a few hours and realized it was the same boring banal shit as the first game.

Both games have the same 87% positive rating on Steam so a roughly equal number of people dislike them.

 

[Fedora Master]

Later sales numbers say nothing about the completion rate. People bought it on sale, played for a few hours and realized it was the same boring banal shit as the first game.

Both games have the same 87% positive rating on Steam so a roughly equal number of people dislike them.

Do you have any idea how little the Steam ratings matter?
Of course not.
Who gave you permission to speak to me in the first place, flesh robot? Know your place.

 

[Roguey]

Do you have any idea how little the Steam ratings matter?

The people who speak up are the ones who matter.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Pillars of Eternity has a far more sophisticated rule system than the modified AD&D in the Baldur's Gate saga. The question is, is it satisfying? The ancient game Go has a very simple ruleset but is one of the most compelling games ever made. PoE got off on the right track, but horrifically missed the mark due to Sawyer. The general mechanical approach was sound, but needed more work. I blame kickstarter stretch goals forcing PoE to walk before it was even birthed. The class, talent, and spell designs are all gimmicks trying to be something distinct from D&D while mostly being inferior to what its imitating. PoE is like the wax sculptures of menu items outside of a Japanese restaurant. It's so damn convincing when you see it, but is revealed to be not food upon scrutiny. Sawyer should have stuck with QA. He's got a keen eye for finding flaws in something, but as a creative he is weak because he doesn't understand what makes things good. Sawyer is like the DM that thinks the campaign is his toy, rather than the player's.

 

[RunningWolf]

You really don't want to measure stats on steam. I just looked and Bugmaker right now has more active players than Pillows 1 and 2 combined. Wrath has 4 TIMES the players as Pillows 1 and 2 combined. Absolutely humiliating and we don't even know how many of the Pillows players are passed out in front of PC and artificially inflating the stats.

 

[Fedora Master]

Underrail has an elegant deep system, PoE has "pick the least shit option" design.
Also Muscle Wizards. No, I'm not letting that go.

 

[scytheavatar]

On a side note, imagine being so crushed and devastated that you put "Deadfire was good" on your watch to remind you

holy shit what a cope

It turned out he wasn't to blame, it was the person they put in charge of marketing (who lost his job because of it).

https://www.pcgamer.com/josh-sawyer...i-worked-on-were-pillars-of-eternity-1-and-2/

Never forget that Josh Sawyer called Pillars 1 and 2 the most compromised games he has worked on

"Honestly, I have to say it felt like the most compromised games I worked on were Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2," Sawyer said. "Because when I came back to that format, I was like, 'Oh, I worked on these two [Icewind Dale] games, and then I worked on Neverwinter Nights 2, and now I have a bunch of new ideas for how differently I would do it if I were doing it on my own.' But they were crowdfunded games and the audience was like, 'No, we want D&D, we want exactly the same experience as the Infinity Engine games.'"

The fact that backers had already paid for an RPG that, in the words of that first Kickstarter, "pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past", meant Sawyer felt he had to keep Pillars of Eternity retro even in places where he had better ideas. "I did feel a sense of obligation," he said, "but also I felt like I was making bad design decisions ultimately, like I was making a game worse to appeal to the sensibilities of the audience that wanted something ultra nostalgic."

Like if the director himself doesn't believe in the first game then why the freak did he try to make a better version of it for the second game? It should be common sense that nostalgia and living in the past can only get you so far, eventually Sawyer had to make a game that is an evolution of Baldur's Gate 2 or he shouldn't be trying.

 

[Fedora Master]

"The game was advertised as a classic CRPG and now people want us to make a classic CRPG???? "

 

[Roguey]

Like if the director himself doesn't believe in the first game then why the freak did he try to make a better version of it for the second game? It should be common sense that nostalgia and living in the past can only get you so far, eventually Sawyer had to make a game that is an evolution of Baldur's Gate 2 or he shouldn't be trying.

Big companies don't make games for themselves, they make them for a particular audience.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Like if the director himself doesn't believe in the first game then why the freak did he try to make a better version of it for the second game? It should be common sense that nostalgia and living in the past can only get you so far, eventually Sawyer had to make a game that is an evolution of Baldur's Gate 2 or he shouldn't be trying.

The problem wasn't that he was trying to improve upon AD&D. It's that Sawyer's ideas were mostly shit. Every time Obsidian divulged some of its mechanics, the forums were flooded with people pointing out very obvious mistakes and offered solutions that were better. In general, many of the core mechanics were a step in the right direction, they just failed to make them good.

 

[damager]

Take for example the Blind effect that was already mentioned: -4 Perception, -25 Accuracy, -20 Deflection, -20 Reflex. That's a -29 Accuracy debuff total in a game where Fighters - the class with the highest base Accuracy, start with 30 Accuracy lmao. For other classes like Wizards it's even worse. And unlike DnD/Pathfinder that have many ways of negating Blindness with spells and feats such as Blind Fight, you can't get rid of PoE Blindness that easily. The -20 Deflection bonus is far more devastating than losing DEX to AC, because not only it increases chance to hit against the target, but also chance to crit, unless we're talking about some DnD DEX-based tank, but, again, there are plenty of ways of countering blindness in DnD. Not so in PoE. Finally, the -20 Reflex debuff is massive in terms of reducing enemy chance of resisting Reflex-targeting status effects such as Prone. The DnD/Pathfinder version is a joke compared to the PoE version.

This is the problem. Look at all these numbers. You can remove all these and give a save throw. If that is lost targets can't hit for x rounds. That would make the game less bloated in useless numbers and more fun. It would make the spell actually feel like it does something more than just reducing some stats.

Nobody wants to learn for how much 20 deflection and 29 accuracy in a ruleset they just learned for one videogame. It's just bad, autistic design.

 

[MjKorz]

This is the problem.

No, it is not a problem. The problem is retards not being able to read and talking about things they don't understand. That's the problem.

You can remove all this and give a save throw.

It already has a save.

If that is lost people can't hit for x rounds. That would make the game less bloated

It would remove the multi-functionality of the spell, making it a generally less useful debuff for different members of the party and would also remove the opportunities for further spell synergy. In other words, it would reduce the impactfullness of the spell - something retards already complain about.

Nobody wants to learn

Yes, that is the problem: retards not wanting to learn or even read.

 

[damager]

The game sucks. I can't learn to make it not suck, sorry. My mind is not as twisted

 

[JarlFrank]

Underrail has an elegant deep system, PoE has "pick the least shit option" design.
Also Muscle Wizards. No, I'm not letting that go.

The whole idea behind "Strength should influence all damage no matter what type" is the perfect representation of what's wrong with PoE.

It has no connection to how the average person would imagine things work. It's not attempting to simulate something resembling reality. D&D's abstractions are all intended to represent something real and/or easily understandable.
PoE's systems are far more abstract. It's just numbers that are balanced against each other according to some ideal of good number relations or something.

In D&D, a hold person spell holds a person. Just like what you'd expect from the spell's name. You read the spell name, you know what it does. And it has a massive impact on the fight as it prevents an enemy from moving.
But Sawyer thinks not being able to move at all is too harsh a consequence for being hit by a spell. So his hold person just... slows a person. Which isn't intuitive at all, because when it's called hold person you expect it to hold the person. Also, the spell's impact on the fight is way lower than D&D's hold person. Instead of having an immediate and noticeable effect on the battlefield, it just... adjusts numbers. Wow.

A lot of D&D spells have immediate battlefield-changing effects. Equivalent PoE spells don't change how the battlefield works, they just adjust the numbers of the entities on the field. Much lower impact.

It's a system that's extremely obsessed with numbers, to the point of neglecting actual effects. The result is boring for anyone who doesn't have terminal autism.

 

[luj1]

It's that Sawyer's ideas were mostly shit. Every time Obsidian divulged some of its mechanics, the forums were flooded with people pointing out very obvious mistakes and offered solutions that were better.

Pretty much

He tried so hard to reinvent the wheel that it broke

 

[luj1]

The whole idea behind "Strength should influence all damage no matter what type" is the perfect representation of what's wrong with PoE.

It has no connection to how the average person would imagine things work. It's not attempting to simulate something resembling reality.

Yeah and there is also something.... well, political about it. This deconstruction of norms brought decline.

 

[luj1]

Never forget that Josh Sawyer called Pillars 1 and 2 the most compromised games he has worked on

Well to be frank he is always making a point out of things he didn't have control over (like RTwP or ship combat). And never out of things he had direct control over (ruleset and accessibility). Which were things that actually broke the game.

 

[Nas92]

It's that Sawyer's ideas were mostly shit. Every time Obsidian divulged some of its mechanics, the forums were flooded with people pointing out very obvious mistakes and offered solutions that were better.

Pretty much

He tried so hard to reinvent the wheel that it broke

I actually like Sawyer and tbh I found PoE to be one of the more entertaining titles of the whole nu hardcore RPG wave of the 2010s.
However, I have to agree with this. PoE would be a better game if it wasn't for Sawyer's obsession of him being the only one to be able to create a new kind of RPG mechanics system and his belief that everything that came before is fundamentally retarded. PoE would have been a far better game if it had actually been created as an Infinity Engine games tribute. In reality, on the outside it is like an Infinity Engine game, a Baldur's Gate spiritual successor, but any closer look and you can see that the minds behind it, chief among them Sawyer, somewhat disliked or even hated those games.