Eternity Does Pillars of Eternity have feature parity with Baldur's Gate?

[Desman]

Music is quite good yea but i don't think it is comparable to the legendary stuff of the IE games.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Armor in DnD grants you an AC bonus, yet doesn't grant any inherent DR. In fact, a naked Barbarian has more DR than a fully armored Fighter wearing full plate and wielding a tower shield.

That's working as intended. High armor makes you harder to hit. A fighter with a tower shield can deflect claws and swords but magic missile will go right through them. Barbarian doesn't get a DR in AD&D, just more HP, because they're tougher. They can survive more punishment of any kind. No matter if it's magical and physical.

Also, I will skip comments that only apply to later editions of D&D since we're talking bout BG1&2.

Another example is strength determining the accuracy of non-finesseable melee attacks: a fighter using a shortsword without weapon finesse has to rely on raw strength for accuracy.

It's harder to parry stronger blows, they're also easier to penetrate amour. A combat round in D&D is not just a one blow that hits or misses target but a series of attacks. Also fighter relies on his training to hit, which is represented by his THAC0.

Third example would be dexterity not influencing the speed of actions when it represents hand-eye coordination.

Because D&D doesn't operate on that scale. A strike is not a single attack, but a series of blows and parries. The speed of your characters is abstracted as initiative, which is why depends on dexterity. Your attacks are faster in a sense that you attack before your enemy does.

A fourth example would be the ability to interrupt spells by inflicting damage, but not other actions such as attacking with melee weapons or performing complex weapon manipulations such as reloading a crossbow.

That's because casting spells take longer and needs a wizard to be constantly focused. As for why you cannot stop melee weapons it's because the game assumes that attackers is constantly striking each other and avoiding blows during the melee round. So there's really no time in combat round to interrupt anything.

So where does your claim stem from? From the sole fact that spell and physical damage in PoE is defined by a single attribute - might? The internal logic of the system defines this in an understandable way: might is not mere physical strength, it is a combination of both physical and spiritual strength and the in-game attribute checks reflect this well: might is used both for physical actions as well as for intimidating others - inflicting fear. Compare the example of might to that of AC - a sum of both the ability to dodge attacks and the armor's ability to not get penetrated.

But that's a much less elegant solution, which is why it's universally hated. AC system allows for variety of real-life situations to be represented in the game. A heavy armored knight is just a guy with high AC due to armor, a nimble assassins will avoid blows due to dexterity bonus.

Meanwhile the might case simply eradicates a powerful but physically weak wizard from existence. You need to hit the gym for your fireballs to do a lot of damage. If your guy is good at killing people with magic missiles he will lift heavy rocks as well. Of course you can explain this in universe as having to be somewhat tough to be order to use strong magical attacks (kinda like in DBZ) but now the fantasy world is bending over to acomodate the rules, while it should be the opposite.

 

[Nas92]

Music is quite good yea but i don't think it is comparable to the legendary stuff of the IE games.

Overall the soundtracks in games had a pretty steep decline imo, but I think Pillars' soundtrack comes very close to being great. Still, even the best piece in PoE can't really match the most basic piece in Icewind Dale.

 

[MjKorz]

That's working as intended. High armor makes you harder to hit. A fighter with a tower shield can deflect claws and swords but magic missile will go right through them. Barbarian doesn't get a DR in AD&D, just more HP, because they're tougher.

Working as intended doesn't mean that it's more intuitive compared to the Pillars system. Physical defenses in PoE are separated into two separate layers: DR and Deflection. DR is provided by armor first and foremost and in the case of armor represents how hard it is to penetrate by various damage types. Deflection is provided by the class and various talents and represents the character's skill in using their equipment to deflect/avoid attacks. While DR as a mechanic exists in AD&D, in the case of AD&D armor there is no separation between the pure protective characteristics of the armor and the skill of the character in avoiding attacks: both defensive layers are combined into a single one - AC.

While at first glance this makes sense, especially if we take into account the max dexterity bonus provided by the armor, as the armor itself can be used to make blows glance off its surface, in practice the system is deeply flawed as it does not account for one crucial factor accounted for in PoE: after barrier performance of the penetrating object. In case of AD&D armor, there are only two states of armor penetration: either you got hit and your armor was fully penetrated, or you safely deflected the attack in its entirety without being subjected to any of its physical trauma related effects.

Let me present an example of why this behavior is extremely unintuitive and far more abstract compared to the PoE system. Consider a case where an attacker tries to penetrate full plate armor with a spoon. Sounds comical, but in AD&D this is perfectly possible within the confines of the AC system, because of the binary nature of penetration: as long as you have sufficient attack bonus, you will fully penetrate full plate armor and inflict full damage. In PoE, even if you were to hit the target with the spoon, the spoon would have an extremely low Penetration value and would not be able to overcome the high DR of the full plate, thus having its damage reduced to the minimum possible value - 20% of initial incoming amount. In reality, any blow that penetrates 1mm of steel or even more would penetrate to a smaller depth relative to an unprotected target, possibly not even piercing the skin when the additional padding is taken into account, and would also have a large chunk of its kinetic energy dissipated by deformation and damage-related processes, thus inflicting less harm to someone's well being.

When all of the above is taken into consideration, it is very clear that the PoE system is more intuitive and less abstract.

It's harder to parry stronger blows, they're also easier to penetrate amour. A combat round in D&D is not just a one blow that hits or misses target but a series of attacks. Also fighter relies on his training to hit, which is represented by his THAC0.

Yet the AC system in AD&D does not simply represent the parrying of blows either with blade/shield or armor surfaces, it also represents complete dodging of blows. If one cannot connect with a blow, then the strength of the blow does not matter. An example where strength-based accuracy makes no sense is when a DEX-based dodge tank has to defend himself against a STR-based attacker. PoE does not suffer from this problem, because accuracy in PoE is provided first and foremost by the class as a base value and then incremented by 3 points every level with both of these values being representative of the character's training. Additional non-equipment sources of accuracy from talents and abilities also represent training and then finally accuracy is increased by the character's Perception attribute which makes perfect sense in the case of an agile defender.

Because D&D doesn't operate on that scale. A strike is not a single attack, but a series of blows and parries. The speed of your characters is abstracted as initiative, which is why depends on dexterity. Your attacks are faster in a sense that you attack before your enemy does.

It does, though. Games like BG specifically operate on a scale of single strikes which are even animated as single strikes. Speed cannot be abstracted simply as initiative, because faster attacks are carried out not only earlier, but also... faster, meaning you can execute more attacks in the same timeframe. PoE accounts for this by having dexterity affect the base attack speed of the weapon, which also depends on the weapon - something AD&D does not have. AD&D weapons only have speed factor which influences how early or late in the round an attack is carried out which is then modified by a random initiative roll that does not, in fact, depend on the character's dexterity.

Again, PoE wins massively in terms of intuitiveness and in terms of being less abstract.

That's because casting spells take longer and needs a wizard to be constantly focused. As for why you cannot stop melee weapons it's because the game assumes that attackers is constantly striking each other and avoiding blows during the melee round. So there's really no time in combat round to interrupt anything.

A fighter swinging his sword at an opponent needs to be focused as well. Moreover, it doesn't even matter if the fighter needs to be focused or not, a sufficient application of force should be able to stop the fighter in his tracks regardless of his focus. AD&D does not attempt to simulate such behavior and treats every fighter as an immovable object, PoE does. Again, PoE wins in terms of intuitiveness and having a lesser degree of abstraction.

AC system allows for variety of real-life situations to be represented in the game.

No, it doesn't. AC is a deeply flawed system for the reasons explained and is completely unintuitive in terms of real-life weapon behavior, because real penetration of armor is a non-binary affair: after-barrier performance matters.

Meanwhile the might case simply eradicates a powerful but physically weak wizard from existence.

That's because in order to cast spells in PoE, you need both strength of spirit and physical strength of body, represented by the cumulative Might attribute. A wizard weak in body, but strong in spirit is bad at casting, because his body is physically weak and that physical strength is needed to cast spells. This is how the magic system works in the setting.

Of course you can explain this in universe as having to be somewhat tough to be order to use strong magical attacks (kinda like in DBZ) but now the fantasy world is bending over to acomodate the rules, while it should be the opposite.

No, the "phantasy world" is not being "bent", because the setting itself provides the explanation! The thing that is being bent are player prejudices and expectations, as they are already accustomed to certain settings and do not wish to recognize the rules of the new setting, even though those rules are clearly stated.

 

[Roguey]

Lets suppose that in the kickstarter, Obsidian was clear "this is a spiritual successor of BG1/2 but our system will be much more like 4e than AD&D".

They were clear it was a new system.

We are asking for more than a lot of the other Kickstarter projects and that’s because we are not only making a game, we are creating a whole new world. That means a new RPG system, entirely new art, new characters and animation and whole lot of lore and dialogue.

I was in the original thread making everyone mad telling people what Sawyer was going to do https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...eased-go-to-the-new-thread.75947/post-2266844 https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...eased-go-to-the-new-thread.75947/post-2266859

 

[Desiderius]

You need to hit the gym for your fireballs to do a lot of damage.

Probably wouldn't hurt!

 

[Hace El Oso]

Games like BG specifically operate on a scale of single strikes which are even animated as single strikes.

You’re supposed to be using your imagination to turn two sprites standing in front of one another(or two figurines on graph paper), occasionally chopping away, into a desperate pell-mell battle to the death. The ‘fake’ attacks are there to help your imagination do its work.
It’s each round of fighting that’s being ‘checked’.

 

[MjKorz]

You’re supposed to be using your imagination to turn two sprites standing in front of one another(or two figurines on graph paper), occasionally chopping away, into a desperate pell-mell battle to the death. The ‘fake’ attacks are there to help your imagination do its work.
It’s each round of fighting that’s being ‘checked’.

If that's true, then it makes my argument only stronger: BG employs a less intuitive and more abstract system than PoE which operates on the scale of single actions that are actually animated as single actions.

 

[Fedora Master]

You need to hit the gym for your fireballs to do a lot of damage.

Probably wouldn't hurt!

You're the local build autist supreme, did you find anything worthwhile in the PoE system?

 

[Hace El Oso]

If that's true, then it makes my argument only stronger: BG employs a less intuitive and more abstract system than PoE which operates on the scale of single actions that are actually animated as single actions.

My imagination exists to be used, and I enjoy being given the opportunity to exercise it with just the right amount of help.

Funny that you say ‘intuitive’, because intuitive (instinctive) is exactly the understanding someone with an imagination (which used to come standard) has when they see those little BG mêlées.

If we were talking about, say, flight or tank sims, then there would be more of a case to be made. But even there, it is not absolute.

 

[MjKorz]

Funny that you say ‘intuitive’, because intuitive (instinctive) is exactly the understanding someone with an imagination (which used to come standard) has when they see those little BG mêlées.

There is nothing "intuitive" about representing an entire round of exchanges as a single hit. Moreover, there is nothing intuitive about the 6second round system employed in BG to begin with. Good thing PoE doesn't suffer from such retardation and provides a proper, intuitive 1:1 representation.

 

[damager]

Severe form of autism

 

[Beans00]

There is nothing "intuitive" about representing an entire round of exchanges as a single hit. Moreover, there is nothing intuitive about the 6second round system employed in BG to begin with. Good thing PoE doesn't suffer from such retardation and provides a proper, intuitive 1:1 representation.

So why isn't Pillars more popular than Baldur's gate?

 

[MjKorz]

So why isn't Pillars more popular than Baldur's gate?

Because it filters retarded shitters with superior, tactically challenging encounter design, and isn't focused on catering to drooling incels with infantile cringe "romances".

Speaking of filtered shitters, care to post your The Ultimate? Surely someone who talks as much shit about Pillars as you do is talking from a position of experience and deep understanding of the game and is not pulling shit out of their ass, regurgitating memes and infantile opinions?

Like this:

 

[roshan]

On a side note, imagine being so crushed and devastated that you put "Deadfire was good" on your watch to remind you

holy shit what a cope

It turned out he wasn't to blame, it was the person they put in charge of marketing (who lost his job because of it).

https://www.pcgamer.com/josh-sawyer...i-worked-on-were-pillars-of-eternity-1-and-2/

Never forget that Josh Sawyer called Pillars 1 and 2 the most compromised games he has worked on

"Honestly, I have to say it felt like the most compromised games I worked on were Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2," Sawyer said. "Because when I came back to that format, I was like, 'Oh, I worked on these two [Icewind Dale] games, and then I worked on Neverwinter Nights 2, and now I have a bunch of new ideas for how differently I would do it if I were doing it on my own.' But they were crowdfunded games and the audience was like, 'No, we want D&D, we want exactly the same experience as the Infinity Engine games.'"

The fact that backers had already paid for an RPG that, in the words of that first Kickstarter, "pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past", meant Sawyer felt he had to keep Pillars of Eternity retro even in places where he had better ideas. "I did feel a sense of obligation," he said, "but also I felt like I was making bad design decisions ultimately, like I was making a game worse to appeal to the sensibilities of the audience that wanted something ultra nostalgic."

Like if the director himself doesn't believe in the first game then why the freak did he try to make a better version of it for the second game? It should be common sense that nostalgia and living in the past can only get you so far, eventually Sawyer had to make a game that is an evolution of Baldur's Gate 2 or he shouldn't be trying.

Sawyer is just a bitch trying to dodge his failure. The problems with Pillars of Sh!tternity aren't caused by what he couldn't decide, but the stupid decisions he did make. And everyone in the forums told him he was being an idiot and his ideas sucked but he stuck to them anyway. One of his dumbest ideas was "no hard counters" which turned it from a game to an animated spreadsheet.

 

[Beans00]

So why isn't Pillars more popular than Baldur's gate?

Because it filters retarded shitters with superior, tactically challenging encounter design, and isn't focused on catering to drooling incels with infantile cringe "romances".

Speaking of filtered shitters, care to post your The Ultimate? Surely someone who talks as much shit about Pillars as you do is talking from a position of experience and deep understanding of the game and is not pulling shit out of their ass, regurgitating memes and infantile opinions?

I played pillars on normal difficulty, beat it in 25 hours, had zero challenge and skipped almost all side content except companion quests and the quest where you own your own castle or something(only interesting quest in the game).


I don't even know what an ultimate is, but any screenshot you want from my game I will happily give it to you lol .

 

[luj1]

Because it filters retarded shitters with superior, tactically challenging encounter design

Pillars isn't a hard game you muppet. It's boring and kinda easy. Tactically challenging encounter design? Lool

 

[MjKorz]

I played pillars on normal difficulty, beat it in 25 hours

normal difficulty

Sorry to inform you, but you didn't beat the game. In fact, you didn't even sniff the game since you played on anything but PotD - the difficulty the game was meant to be played on with everything else being journalist mode. Your case is that of a typical shitter who got filtered and can't stop seething about it. It's OK, you have a lot of company.

 

[MjKorz]

Pillars isn't a hard game

Post your the ultimate. Or are we dealing with another shitter who got filtered?

 

[Shaki]

Sorry guys, but MjKorz is absolutely right here, PoE is much more intuitive than BG1/2, anyone who even looks at the game, intuitively knows it's dogshit.

 

[MjKorz]

Pillars isn't a hard game

*proceeds to get filtered by the said game*

 

[luj1]

It's really not a hard game, I think you are coping. Certain races and classes are vastly overpowered too. You can solo the game with a Fire Priest or with a Cipher. You can make a party of 6 Moon Barbarians and play with your legs.

PotD is just HP bloat. There isn't any encounter design. The amount of trash combat (on any difficulty) is simply astounding in this game. I pray MjKorz doesn't try KotC 1-2 and Underrail or he will turn into a serial killer.

 

[MjKorz]

It's really not a hard game

Is that why it filtered you?

 

[luj1]

You will get a brain aneurism from trying to defend this game bro

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

Did people really dislike Pillars for its combat? I still remember that cool linear heal/damage spell priests get despite never replaying.
Ninagauth shadowflame was cool too. And the druid lightning spells.

Did often end up feeling like standing in a "buff/debuff puddle", but surely the real problem with both games was the notD&D unoriginal generic setting?

They literally reimagined everything and built a whoile detailed fantasy world from the ground up, only to make it generic. AND they put gods at the heart of the story and setting while having a full retard fedora-tipper attitude to them. I was an atheist back when I played these games and even then I found that retarded. At the end of the day the world was uncool and not immersive, especially the hipster undertones of game 2. If the writing was good I would replay those games and enjoy the combat.