guess u weren't playing with meOne thing was different though since last i played, people didn't scream at each other constantly. Not sure whether this is an improvement or not.
it's funny because i played a little dota customs and always thought the bigger map was a great idea, but then they added all the other retarded shit tooMy dad stopped playing this after the recent patch. After 20000 hours he’s finally quit.
Was this update that shitty and how’s the player base? The_Mask
you're missing out; at least half the fun is being toxic af to all 9 other players. nothing beats pausing the game when you gank, or pinging a teammate's item and calling their mom a hoe etc..Now I just play regular games about once a week and mute everyone on both teams.
Well... I kind of liked it, at first, because it reminded me of the DotA Allstars we had back in 2003/2004, when people used to play shit like Lich mid, because they were just that fucking good with Lich, for example. So... what happened was that a lot of people were using their best hero(es), and trying their best to figure out what the heck is happening.My dad stopped playing this after the recent patch. After 20000 hours he’s finally quit.
Was this update that shitty and how’s the player base? The_Mask
tbf dunking on noobs is hilariousThe last one being the *most* egregious. No matter your rank, you'll bump into unpunished smurfs, who are actually proud of destroying the game they love, not understanding that their smurfing is actively killing the player-base.My dad stopped playing this after the recent patch. After 20000 hours he’s finally quit.
Was this update that shitty and how’s the player base? The_Mask
Sniper actually touches on what I dislike about new DotA. Carrying as Sniper really is all about understanding how carrying is relative and isolating moments when you are strong and they are weak and doing damage to widen the gap, put them off their game, and snowball before they can close it rather than trying to emerge with your late-game items and right clicking your enemies into oblivion. Sniper can't survive a hard carry farming competition with his lack of scaling. He has to wreck the enemy team and enemy carry before they get farmed and push their progress back enough that the Sniper can continue to outgrow them. But gold/exp/etc growth and comeback gains are much more guaranteed now and earlygame items are weaker, so it's harder to throw the enemy team off their game enough that you can claim a win.I agree with most of what you said Absinthe, and that's a good breakdown of sniper. But on some things I disagree:
At top brackets you're more likely to see a lot of BKBs being used smartly, which is already a good counter to Zeus in addition to all the other shit it's good for. But in a regular game if the enemy team has heavy magic damage going on, a Pipe will do huge things to teamfights, assuming you have the TPs to reliably appear in a teamfight in time. The problem with Pipe is that it's a big investment for a hard counter to magic damage with a health regen bonus that has become much less valuable thanks to free regen of newer versions, and the more magic-heavy the enemy team is, the more extra BKBs on team start to look good, not to mention that pros can tailor their items better to general survival as well as disable and play around Zeus at the right moments. Pipe is what you do when your team has a significant problem with magic damage and isn't deviating enough from their builds or playstyles to fix it.Zeus's bigger weaknesses were BKB and Khadgar's Pipe of Insight, but the jump is indeed dumb. It removes positioning considerations from Zeus by letting him jump in and out of position and it conveniently debuffs the nearest hero with massive movespeed and attack speed slows. That's just wrong. Makes me feel like I'd need to burn a BKB charge or a Lotus Orb to effectively gank Zeus if I don't have a silence or disable. They also raised Zeus's base MS from 295 to 315 and he has another +20 ms awaiting him as his level 10 talent. That's also messed up. The addition of invis-revealing to his lightning bolt is also something I'm not really on board with. It diminishes the point of invis wards and makes him a very effective de-warder without any real investment.Zeus gets a jump, to remove his only weakness.
Pipe has been an underwhelming item for a while now. I don't think I've seen a lot of pipes built at the last major (if any?) despite Zeus being a semi-popular pick and magic damage being high in general. It's too expensive and doesn't do enough for the price. And the offlaner has mostly become another core anyway, so it's cheaper to just buy another bkb. Another thing was that Zeus used to have mana issues throughout the whole game. Nowadays mana is not a problem. So you can go Zeus support and if he forces a bkb, he did his job already.
I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that moving or attacking was disabled or somehow broke those abilities. You're right about those heroes being able to attack while moving now.No, Razor definitely couldn't attack and move in the past. Windranger aswell. You had to stop to attack.Windrunner can move and attack during her ult. She could always do that. The only difference was that it was very easy to break ult if you weren't paying attention. Now you can switch targets and shit while retaining ult if you go back to your original target. Honestly, this wasn't a bad change. Razor can also move and attack during his link. Pretty sure he could always do that, ever since he got static link.
Armor ignore is more relevant later on. Old Marksmanship means Drow becomes a powerhouse early on. In DotA the ability to snowball from earlygame onwards is frequently more valuable. Of course, in new DotA snowballing isn't quite what it used to be, as the game has become much more forgiving with its comeback mechanics, GPM, boosted exp, regen, etc.Eh, old ult was more of a "lol I don't need items" thing. Between Precision aura and Marksmanship Drow was a pretty hard hitter with good attack speed with zero investment. The new Marksmanship giving bonus agi as a percentage of DR's current agi is pretty odd though, but the big convenience is the new Multishot giving Drow a free AoE ability when previously she had none.
Disagree. The armor ignore is way stronger as a "lol i don't need items thing" than + flat agility. And she still gets bonus agi anyway.
Pretty sure 7.00 is when IceFrog left. In DotA version history, a new major version signifies new leadership. He seems to be back very recently now, but the game is shit nowadays.Nah, this is still very much his style. People were speculating that he had left because the updates started feeling safe and conservative. This is basically just the sequel to 7.00 when he introduced talents, backpacks, and shrines.IceFrog left somewhere between 2016 - 2017... and you can tell.
the game's population has been dwindling for many years now
Ulti used to be +12, +24 and +36 agility, right? At least before they changed it to a percentage to insta-kill creeps.Armor ignore is more relevant later on. Old Marksmanship means Drow becomes a powerhouse early on. In DotA the ability to snowball from earlygame onwards is frequently more valuable. Of course, in new DotA snowballing isn't quite what it used to be, as the game has become much more forgiving with its comeback mechanics, GPM, boosted exp, regen, etc.
-wtfIf anyone played Dota Imba or similar scenarios, this is what the game has become. Dota on steroids
Nope. The old version from early 6.50 used to be a flat +15/+30+/45 agi. But before 7.20, it was +40/+60/+80 agi, but it was disabled if there was an enemy hero within 400 units (or halved if there was a hero within that range) since the rework in 6.76 in 2012. So your Drow Ranger just hit level 6 and suddenly has +50 damage (don't forget lvl2 Precision), +40 attack speed, and roughly +6 armor. It was very much an ult designed to make the Drow go "live" as a carry without any real items.Ulti used to be +12, +24 and +36 agility, right? At least before they changed it to a percentage to insta-kill creeps.Armor ignore is more relevant later on. Old Marksmanship means Drow becomes a powerhouse early on. In DotA the ability to snowball from earlygame onwards is frequently more valuable. Of course, in new DotA snowballing isn't quite what it used to be, as the game has become much more forgiving with its comeback mechanics, GPM, boosted exp, regen, etc.
There's nothing wrong with comeback mechanics in and of themselves. Otherwise it's just a merciless snowball and one team is just waiting to lose for 10-15 minutes (which promotes fountain-hugging cancer), but there is such a thing as too much comeback where you lower the skill ceiling by reducing the ability to effect meaningful change in the game state or force the enemy team off their game plan and make the entire game more boring precisely because it's harder to make a difference now. Not to mention part of the old DotA comeback style was that if you got put off your game, you switched from building expensive lategame items to cheaper, more cost-effective items to close the gap and it usually ensured items had some modicum of versatility (such as damage on support items) so that it was possible to adapt your itemization. But scrubs are bad at that and the new DotA is basically designed for scrubs by scrubs. So the game funnels you into lategame items, nerfs earlygame items, and pigeonholes items more heavily into only being good for specific hero roles (thus punishing you for role-switching or attempting to branch out based on the needs of the game) while accelerating gold and exp gains to guarantee everyone gets their items off.And yeah, comeback mechanics are awful in every genre, even as a viewer.
That was a noticeably awful change, but far from the only one. You can tell they just hated Techies and finally took it upon themselves to delete the hero from the game with a redesign that made it into something totally different. The only thing they kept of old Techies was the worst version of his land mines ability and they made that trash into his ult.the only really awful change was re-designing techies. techies used to be such a cool hero and was totally unique to dota but now it's just another basic nuker
Before your edit, how much older were you talking about? +12/+24/+36 was ~2005/2006, percentage chance to kill was like 2007? Basically like listed here: https://vespenegas.com/dota/heros.html?hero_id=43 (takes a while to load). I did look at that awful DotA 2 fandom website since the old websites seem to all be gone but what's listed there is all messed up and wrong.Nope. The old version from early 6.50 used to be a flat +15/+30+/45 agi. But before 7.20, it was +40/+60/+80 agi, but it was disabled if there was an enemy hero within 400 units (or halved if there was a hero within that range) since the rework in 6.76 in 2012. So your Drow Ranger just hit level 6 and suddenly has +50 damage (don't forget lvl2 Precision), +40 attack speed, and roughly +6 armor. It was very much an ult designed to make the Drow go "live" as a carry without any real items.Ulti used to be +12, +24 and +36 agility, right? At least before they changed it to a percentage to insta-kill creeps.Armor ignore is more relevant later on. Old Marksmanship means Drow becomes a powerhouse early on. In DotA the ability to snowball from earlygame onwards is frequently more valuable. Of course, in new DotA snowballing isn't quite what it used to be, as the game has become much more forgiving with its comeback mechanics, GPM, boosted exp, regen, etc.
But the percentage chance to insta-kill creeps is actually the older version of Marksmanship, the one that existed from 3.00d until 6.50. Before 3.00 (since Drow was created in 0.60) she also insta-killed creeps, but it was an expensive orb attack you could autocast, like the Frost Arrows that got added much later, without any cooldown, and there was no proc chance involved.
There's nothing wrong with comeback mechanics in and of themselves. Otherwise it's just a merciless snowball and one team is just waiting to lose for 10-15 minutes (which promotes fountain-hugging cancer), but there is such a thing as too much comeback where you lower the skill ceiling by reducing the ability to effect meaningful change in the game state or force the enemy team off their game plan and make the entire game more boring precisely because it's harder to make a difference now. Not to mention part of the old DotA comeback style was that if you got put off your game, you switched from building expensive lategame items to cheaper, more cost-effective items to close the gap and it usually ensured items had some modicum of versatility (such as damage on support items) so that it was possible to adapt your itemization. But scrubs are bad at that and the new DotA is basically designed for scrubs by scrubs. So the game funnels you into lategame items, nerfs earlygame items, and pigeonholes items more heavily into only being good for specific hero roles (thus punishing you for role-switching or attempting to branch out based on the needs of the game) while accelerating gold and exp gains to guarantee everyone gets their items off.And yeah, comeback mechanics are awful in every genre, even as a viewer.
I looked through old websites via waybackmachine and it seems to be that way. That's weird though because I clearly remember there being changes where creeps would then get some indicator/animation above them when the ultimate proc'ed. Those hero abilities etc apparently really seem to merge together and dates become fuzzy. Like, Smoke of Deceit was introduced in December 2010 and I could have sworn it came out a year or even two earlier. Hm, maybe it's a sign of getting old.6.50 was +10/+20/+30. 6.53 until 6.58 was +12/+24/+36. From 6.58 it was +15/+30/+45. For the duration of 6.75 (which lasted 3 weeks in DotA 1 and DotA 2), it was +15/+30/+60. From 6.76 it was +20/+30/+40 and doubled when there is no enemy hero in 375 (later 400) units. From 6.77c onwards, it no longer granted any agility bonus if there was an enemy hero in 375 (later 400) units. From 7.20 they reworked it back into a version that instakilled creeps and ignores armor with 20/30/40% proc chance. From 7.23 onwards, the instakill was reworked into bonus damage.
And I beg to differ. There needs to be some way to achieve a comeback or the snowball just results in games being lost early and everyone on the losing side basically giving up or trying to quit. You just can't have the comeback mechanics be so strong that it undermines the ability to achieve real gains and real damage in gamestate.
And yes, itemization was a big thing. You had to be able to adapt not only your items but your playstyle and the abilities you were going for if you wanted to be able to carry the team to victory. I actually became fond of highly adaptable playstyles because it allowed me to switch how I was playing and developing my hero based on how the game was turning out and what my team needed. There were definitely times when I transitioned into carry roles (sometimes into hard carry from hard support, which is not ideal, but when you can tell early on that your carry is a sack of shit and no one else is going to carry either... well, I carried the game to victory) and times when I started supporting hard because I had a team of aggressive glass cannons. There have been games where I built shit like pipe, mek, and vlads just to ensure that my team could plow through the enemy, and that worked well too. And a number of games where I abandoned my team to just go telepusher and take towers and rax faster than the enemy while they are teamfighting against my lousy team. Adaptation is big. Nowadays there's a lot more pigeonholing though.
In the good old days people would only complain if you basically griefed with your items or did some stupid laning nonsense (like four players wanting to go safe lane -_-). (Playing badly/feeding excluded, of course.) To be fair, players generally sucked. And the worst players you could just always put on your banlist and kick from your hosted games. Just too bad that creating a new Battle.net account was done in less than a minute...As always, the biggest problem with Dota are the players. Things were much more fun when you could just do your shit without people having a heart attack over it.
Build flexibility also has a lot to do with how people perceive the "meta" and how everyone rages if you go a nonstandard route.
Although the game has changed significantly - and I agree that there's a lot more pigeonholing, especially now with these shard dispensers at 20 minutes, I don't think it's "built" around certain predetermined builds. However, there's now this expectation that i.e. position 3 should build tanky aura items and teammates often rage when someone doesn't go that route. Or when a support hero goes for a more damage-oriented build. I think this partly due to the fact that the game was stuck in a deathball push style for too long.