no.
no.
RTS never get boring. And neither does chess. DotA is simply too repetitive.
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Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)
- Thread starter Rpgsaurus
- Start date
no.
no.
RTS never get boring. And neither does chess. DotA is simply too repetitive.
Rpgsaurus Rex
Guest
no.
Castanova
Prophet
Soooo, Centaur Warchief added! Time for pubstomps?
Damned Registrations
Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
- Messages
- 15,853
The thing is, there is only one real dynamic in dota, hero power levels. Map control and most everything else is just derivative of that. So every game is focused around making your heroes stronger, and how you do that depends on which heroes are currently stronger. Carries farm early while gakers gank, later you move towards team fights, there might be a emphasis on defending or attacking towers, etc. but this is all dependant on how strong each hero is at any given point during the game.
It would be far more interesting if there were other factors to consider and make use of, like if you could change the strength of creeps before taking all the enemy towers, via upgrades or temporary buffs. Or if you could capture things on the map and maintain control, or do raids on specific building targets to weaken your enemies.
AotZ was brilliant in this regard- both sides had a power generator that was off to the side of the lanes, fairly heavily defended with turrets, and whose destruction would deactivate all the healing wells for that team except their main one. Each team had several forward bases which spawned units of their own and had their own healing pools. Unit waves could be upgraded by hiring mercenary commanders, which would stay at the forward outposts, defend them (they gained levels with experience as well) and spawned units as long as they lived. You could also purchase single waves of extra units to help in pushes. There was a type of currency awarded only for hero kills that was required for certain things, such as upgrading commanders. Character equipment was generally not worth the cost, and so farming wasn't a big part of gameplay at all, and instead the focus was on getting hero kills, killing commanders, and destroying key structures. And the heroes were incredibly varied. There was an archer with a global ballistic skillshot (you had to land it right on the enemy) that did damage based on distance travelled. You could one shot heroes or commanders using the skill, if the target was distracted long enough to stay in place and you were far enough away. Another character had an insanely long channelling spell that culminated in a meteor strike causing massive damage to friend and foe alike in a massive radius, including structures, killing the caster. 2 or 3 of the characters didn't even have normal attacks, just spells. Hell, one didn't even have attack spells, and was basically a pacifist. Tons of unique shit like that.
The result was a game with many dynamics. The team with stronger heroes didn't necessarily win, and not just because they goofed in a fight and got killed by weaker enemies or forgot to defend their base, but because the opponents had other advantages that trumped the fighting ability of the heroes.
By comparison, when you start a game of dota, you pretty much know how the early phase is going to go with laning, when and where people are going to get ganked, where team fights will happen, etc. Nobody ever 5 mans bot lane to take the tower right away and then hangs out in the enemy jungle constantly ganking or trying for rosh because none of that matters as much as getting everyone levelled up and itemized. Ever. 5 level 16 heroes with a 500gpm carry trumps everything as your goal. Warding and taking towers and ganking is all done just as a means to that end, because you'll never get an early rax off a decent team, and towers don't mean anything except a temporary spike in gold and the loss of a permanent ward.
It would be far more interesting if there were other factors to consider and make use of, like if you could change the strength of creeps before taking all the enemy towers, via upgrades or temporary buffs. Or if you could capture things on the map and maintain control, or do raids on specific building targets to weaken your enemies.
AotZ was brilliant in this regard- both sides had a power generator that was off to the side of the lanes, fairly heavily defended with turrets, and whose destruction would deactivate all the healing wells for that team except their main one. Each team had several forward bases which spawned units of their own and had their own healing pools. Unit waves could be upgraded by hiring mercenary commanders, which would stay at the forward outposts, defend them (they gained levels with experience as well) and spawned units as long as they lived. You could also purchase single waves of extra units to help in pushes. There was a type of currency awarded only for hero kills that was required for certain things, such as upgrading commanders. Character equipment was generally not worth the cost, and so farming wasn't a big part of gameplay at all, and instead the focus was on getting hero kills, killing commanders, and destroying key structures. And the heroes were incredibly varied. There was an archer with a global ballistic skillshot (you had to land it right on the enemy) that did damage based on distance travelled. You could one shot heroes or commanders using the skill, if the target was distracted long enough to stay in place and you were far enough away. Another character had an insanely long channelling spell that culminated in a meteor strike causing massive damage to friend and foe alike in a massive radius, including structures, killing the caster. 2 or 3 of the characters didn't even have normal attacks, just spells. Hell, one didn't even have attack spells, and was basically a pacifist. Tons of unique shit like that.
The result was a game with many dynamics. The team with stronger heroes didn't necessarily win, and not just because they goofed in a fight and got killed by weaker enemies or forgot to defend their base, but because the opponents had other advantages that trumped the fighting ability of the heroes.
By comparison, when you start a game of dota, you pretty much know how the early phase is going to go with laning, when and where people are going to get ganked, where team fights will happen, etc. Nobody ever 5 mans bot lane to take the tower right away and then hangs out in the enemy jungle constantly ganking or trying for rosh because none of that matters as much as getting everyone levelled up and itemized. Ever. 5 level 16 heroes with a 500gpm carry trumps everything as your goal. Warding and taking towers and ganking is all done just as a means to that end, because you'll never get an early rax off a decent team, and towers don't mean anything except a temporary spike in gold and the loss of a permanent ward.
dota is pretty much the popamole of strategy.
Castanova
Prophet
AotZ is clearly a very complex game. Complexity isn't always desirable, though. I'm no AotZ pro but I guarantee if people played that game as seriously as people play Dota/LoL/HoN, a perfect strategy and OP/UP heroes would quickly emerge. Complexity can be fun sure, but it's also exponentially harder to balance. If a game is not balanced then there is less opportunity for player skill to make an impact and there is less opportunity for metagame to emerge. In AotZ, it would be a matter of picking the OP heroes and executing the OP strategy.
DotA has a simpler concept. As you described, you are always trying to get items and levels. However, just because people don't execute VASTLY different strategies each game doesn't mean it's not interesting. I assume you dislike soccer/football because they never do wacky shit like assign 8 players to play defense, 1 to play mid, and 1 to play offense? Do the relatively rigid rules of the game get in the way of your enjoyment? How about any sport out there? None of them frequently have wacky shit going on.
DotA has three main strategies: pushing, ganking, farming. You have to always do a little of each but each team prioritizes one based on their hero picks and the enemy picks. Then it's a matter of appreciating player skill and strategy/tactics, the meat of any competitive game. Some level of simplicity is a good thing otherwise your game is solveable.
Damned Registrations
Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
- Messages
- 15,853
Well, I suppose it is a matter of taste, but if I preferred simplicity, I'd be playing Chess, not video games. The simpler something gets the more people complicate it while playing(metagame); the limit of complexity is generally what can be done, rather than what players know how to do. I prefer it when things are slanted the other way around; when nobody knows the optimal strategy, and things are being experimented with constantly to great effect. Balance doesn't matter until it breaks. Even if something is broken, if nobody knows it yet, it's just an interesting part of the game.
Besides, people assume shit is unbalanced when it really isn't all the time anyways. It happens far more often with new players, but even experts don't know everything there is to know about the game. Everyone was freaking out when navi let the OP dark seer + naga combo slip through in the internationals, but they countered the shit out of it (though they ended up losing anyways later on, mostly by giving them those two + enigma, which their strategy didn't account for at all).
Ultimately I play competitive games in the hopes of being surprised by a trick or tactic I've never seen before, or finding one myself. Doesn't happen nearly as often in DotA as I'd like. 9 times out of 10 it's yet another lycan walking out of the woods to rape everything, which I saw coming at hero selection.
Besides, people assume shit is unbalanced when it really isn't all the time anyways. It happens far more often with new players, but even experts don't know everything there is to know about the game. Everyone was freaking out when navi let the OP dark seer + naga combo slip through in the internationals, but they countered the shit out of it (though they ended up losing anyways later on, mostly by giving them those two + enigma, which their strategy didn't account for at all).
Ultimately I play competitive games in the hopes of being surprised by a trick or tactic I've never seen before, or finding one myself. Doesn't happen nearly as often in DotA as I'd like. 9 times out of 10 it's yet another lycan walking out of the woods to rape everything, which I saw coming at hero selection.
But it's balanced because you could've denied him from jungle!
Castanova
Prophet
I totally get what you're saying and it sounds like AotZ is a fun game, indeed. I just don't think I'd stick with a competitive game for very long where the outcome feels sort of random. I want to know that if I play well something good is going to happen, not that my team loses anyway because someone accidentally exploited a poorly balanced ability/strategy. Obviously, the flip side to that is I can play well in DotA and lose also, but that being thanks to poor teammates.
Merkwürdigliebe
Arcane
Russians on EU servers...
Remove Borscht, Rus genocide best day of my life.
Remove Borscht, Rus genocide best day of my life.
He could counterpick Bane/Pudge/Enigma to own him in all battles (ult goes through bkb) or Night Stalker/other strong ganker to deny him farming in the lanes/jungle or Faceless Void/AM/Morphling/Naga Siren/Chaos Knight/etc to outcarry Lycan. Lycan is easy to counter due to wolves not having bash anymore thus being unable to stop channeling and Lycan himself not going manta ie being vulnerable to single target disables. And Lycan isnt even a very strong carry, gets outcarried easily. Can also easily be beaten to Roshan by Ursa.
Only fools think Lycan is overpowered. He never gets picked in competitive games for a reason.
You realize that the whole idea behind that train of thought is horrible and has less to do with balance than an elephant with diarrea pooping on a set of scales?
I fail to see what is horrible in certain heroes/play styles countering other certain heroes/play styles.
You face opponents that need farm to be effective? Pick roaming/ganking heroes that dont need farm.
You face roamers/gankers? Work on your map control.
You face massed spell casters/burst damage? Counter with certain items and certain heroes.
The true balance comes not from heroes being the SAME but from them being DIFFERENT thus enabling different counters and strategies. Yes, better players win on micro level/tactical level but there is strategy involved in picking and countering. Dont see how is that supposed to be horrible. Do explain.
You face opponents that need farm to be effective? Pick roaming/ganking heroes that dont need farm.
You face roamers/gankers? Work on your map control.
You face massed spell casters/burst damage? Counter with certain items and certain heroes.
The true balance comes not from heroes being the SAME but from them being DIFFERENT thus enabling different counters and strategies. Yes, better players win on micro level/tactical level but there is strategy involved in picking and countering. Dont see how is that supposed to be horrible. Do explain.
So what you're saying is you'd rather play League of Legends for Twisted Treeline and Dominion
Rpgsaurus Rex
Guest
LoL > Zynga games > your mom > doto
LoL? Haha.. BAHAHAHA HAHA
Damned Registrations
Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
- Messages
- 15,853
Dominion didn't have more objectives though really. Just different ones. Still incredibly simple goals. Though the basic concept is at least a bit better in that you can earn a lot of points towards winning even by fighting losing battles if you distract enough enemies for long enough to get work done elsewhere.
Also Lycan was insanely OP before the recent patch and got picked/banned a ton at the last international. But even assuming you pick and play to counter him, that just means you know you're going to lose from the antimage farming the safelane instead because you decided to counter the lycan instead of him. You still know how shit is going to play out ahead of time, barring incredible stupidity on someone's part (which admittedly occurs a lot).
I love the big splashy ultimates in dota like Ravage and Epicenter, but they make hardcore pushing strategies next to impossible leaving the entire game to revolve around farmed carries that can walk through those spells without batting an eye. And even if pushing were a viable strategy, it'd still just be 2 options, rather than a preferred 3 or 4.
The problem is that you never face any of these because they're all hopelessly non viable and easily countered. There isn't enough farm on the map to support a lot of carry heroes (which are easy to gank and can't defend towers well anyways), gankers can't win a team fight and therefore can't stop a carry from farming or take towers when 3+ enemy heroes are present, and massed AoE is only effective if the enemy team fights together, and will easily lose if people stay split up in lanes and outfarm them, since they'll be ruined lategame.
Pretty much every decent team HAS to have a carry, a ganker, a defender/initiator (aoe burst), and a pusher (usually a jungler with summons). If you're missing any of those in a high level game your gap will be exploited in a predictable fashion and your 'advantage' by doubling up in another area will be a stalemate at best. Maybe you drop the pusher in favour of another defender and now neither of you can push well. Weeee.
I prefer something more akin to Civ, where there are multiple victory conditions that change the gameplay a lot. Military doesn't counter economic growth or expansion or culture or tech. Everything just does different stuff. You can gain different but equally useful advantages by focusing on different things.
Also Lycan was insanely OP before the recent patch and got picked/banned a ton at the last international. But even assuming you pick and play to counter him, that just means you know you're going to lose from the antimage farming the safelane instead because you decided to counter the lycan instead of him. You still know how shit is going to play out ahead of time, barring incredible stupidity on someone's part (which admittedly occurs a lot).
I love the big splashy ultimates in dota like Ravage and Epicenter, but they make hardcore pushing strategies next to impossible leaving the entire game to revolve around farmed carries that can walk through those spells without batting an eye. And even if pushing were a viable strategy, it'd still just be 2 options, rather than a preferred 3 or 4.
The problem is that you never face any of these because they're all hopelessly non viable and easily countered. There isn't enough farm on the map to support a lot of carry heroes (which are easy to gank and can't defend towers well anyways), gankers can't win a team fight and therefore can't stop a carry from farming or take towers when 3+ enemy heroes are present, and massed AoE is only effective if the enemy team fights together, and will easily lose if people stay split up in lanes and outfarm them, since they'll be ruined lategame.
Pretty much every decent team HAS to have a carry, a ganker, a defender/initiator (aoe burst), and a pusher (usually a jungler with summons). If you're missing any of those in a high level game your gap will be exploited in a predictable fashion and your 'advantage' by doubling up in another area will be a stalemate at best. Maybe you drop the pusher in favour of another defender and now neither of you can push well. Weeee.
I prefer something more akin to Civ, where there are multiple victory conditions that change the gameplay a lot. Military doesn't counter economic growth or expansion or culture or tech. Everything just does different stuff. You can gain different but equally useful advantages by focusing on different things.
Rpgsaurus Rex
Guest
it's raw news bro. you might as well be talking to a donkey's ass
Merkwürdigliebe
Arcane
I'm not sure what to make of this.
ohWOW
Sucking on dicks and being proud of it
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2011
- Messages
- 2,449
It's true.
In lol you at least don't have that masses of russians savages ruining everything they can.
Castanova
Prophet
I'm not sure what to make of this.
Must be shopped or based on using cheats or something.
Damned Registrations
Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2007
- Messages
- 15,853
My guess would be a 1v5 or something. No other way to explain that much gold at that low a level besides pooling. His team probably ragequit because he sucked and he waited long enough to get all their items and turn them into... that.
AngryEddy
Self-Ejected
Looks like Slark is going to be the next hero released.
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