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[Mr. Teatime]

I agree with Saint and Exitium. I hate romances in computer games because they suck so much.
The only game that handled them relatively well was PS:T. Actually, Anachronox did it excellently as well, but most people never played it.
As for George R. R. Martin: sex in books is fine, sex is a part of life. When a 14 year old girl gets it on with her handmaidens because she needs comforting after her 50 year old lover betrayed her, it's going to take a miracle to convince me of its literary merit, and no miracle has been forthcoming whilst reading those books. A lot of fantasy authors seem to suffer from extreme sexual frustration.

EDIT: I should add, even in PS:T, the romances were merely bareable. I have never played a computer game that handles romances well, and generally I end up cringing when I get to them or playing them with a morbid curiousity to see how explicit they're going to get. I really don't think it's possible to make it believable in a game given the depth of current RPGs, and would prefer that games avoid them all together, or take the Fallout approach and make fun of the whole thing by selling your wife into slavery or being able to fill her with bullets and suffer no real game-depth consequences because it was a minor character.
And what's that line in KOTOR that Bastilla says? Something like, 'Youre more man than I've ever met before'. That line literally had me laughing uncontrollably when it was read out.

EDIT 2: I think part of the problem is, romances that we're supposed to take seriously develop over maybe one day of real time. Which is just stupid. All the intricacies and subtleties that develop over weeks, months and years in real life are completely missed, and what remains is just a farce that boils down to the PC getting to have virtual sex, which you can either get turned on by if you're under 15, or find sadly funny, if you've experienced a bit more of life.

 

[Sol Invictus]

My experience of the fantasy genre is limited to Tolkien, and people like the guy who does the Wheel of Time (though it sucks recently), and George R. R. Martin. In the latter's books, by far the weakest parts are the lame sex parts. THe whole 14 year old lesbian plot thing is so pathetic it's laughable and spoils an otherwise excellent series.

Oh, definitely. I used to read Wheel of Time, but I stopped at book 4 because the romances became absolutely convoluted. The leading character (Rand al`Thor) would have dreams of swimming naked and being pleasured by 3 of the female characters in the books while his childhood crush (Egwyne) would look sad in the distance and he would feel bad about it, or something stupid like that.

Book 2 was a culprit of the 'damsel in distress' scenario. It even had a bit of BDSM and torture in it. Hell, all the books do these days with those women from across the ocean who enslave the Aes Sedai women by collaring them and turning them into magical slaves. They tortured Egwene, too. Oh, and the Whitecloaks captain kicked Egwene in the face. Man, she's had rough times, but that scene was well done and tasteful, as was the domination stuff, which didn't go into any 'distasteful' detail as Terry Goodkind's books.

The romances started to get bad in Book 3 when the Wolf-guy (forgot his name) found that Hawk chick or whatever and she started ruling his life with her bitchy, bitchy ways. Moiraine Sedai was highly annoying, too. Being a bitch from the start and all that.

The books are just messed up, but nothing comes close to being as bad by Terry Goodkind's books which incorporate such wonderful subjects as sadomasochism, rape and childkilling all at once. In graphic detail!

Other fantasy authors I've read, I haven't read for long because they tend to suck and drop into the cliche and stereotype that I'm criticising Bioware for here.

EDIT: I forgot to add, I'm a big Terry Pratchett fan who mocks all these fantasy stereotypes, which is the only way to deal with them as far as I'm concerned because to take them seriously is just... stupid.

Terry Pratchett is by far the best 'fantasy' writer out there, and to be fair, I'd classify his work as fiction/comedy instead of fantasy since the worlds he describes are parallel to our own world, as well as classical, or modern works of fiction. I've only seen a few 'glimpses' of romances in his books, and they're fairly well done without going all mushy and crap. Like in one of the books, the protagonist just has a slight crush on one of the female characters, and at the end, he asks her out for tea. Quaint, isn't it? And that's all there is to it. Vimes's relationship with his wife is pretty neat, too.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I always halfway wonder about men who do that. Typically, the overmuscled barbarian looking guys are fighter types, tanks. The kind of guys that just shouldn't look like 90 pound weaklings or 300 pound, cheeto pounding basement dwellers.

Well, it's one thing to have a really retarded looking protagonist (e.g. skinny, or terribly overweight) but I think that to be fair it'd only make sense if the warriors had well toned, muscled bodies like footballers (american or international, your pick) and other athletes do since warriors are going to spend most of their time training and building up their muscles to better swing their weapons. I just don't think it makes any sense for them to run around looking like shirtless bodybuilding Conan-clones in their skivvies. It worked for Conan the Barbarian and it still would, but that cliche is so overused.

That said, I like the look of normal, fit looking warriors. Perhaps some really big dudes if they're NPCs. But I don't think warriors have the time to lift weights all day to come out looking like those sexually-dysfunctional musclemen you see milling around gyms unless the character with those sorts of builds are supposed to be gladiators or wrestlers.

To put things into perspective, it makes sense for warriors to have a strong build like Kevin Sorbo or Brad Pitt. Not like Andre the Giant.

I don't find the chainmail bikini fighter chicks any less appropriate than the shaggy loin clothed barbarian men, which are acceptable in the fantasy setting. Up until Kevin Sorbo, I didn't know Hercules had any shirts.

Both chainmail bikini fighters and shirtless barbarians are silly in my book. Kevin Sorbo's Hercules was the best. Greece isn't a beach.

 

[taks]

apparently ex has some opinions on all this... or just likes to bash volourn...

"appropriate for the story" is the way i see it... i'm trying to remember what the chicks in the M&M series were like. hmmm, certainly there weren't any romances. S_P is right, silly and superflous. sure, romances might occur given some "real" fantasy situation, but why does my computer game need to worry about it. maybe a line of text that said "whatshisname and whatshername had a past, but they don't talk about it anymore and it doesn't seem to affect their outward relationship today though a strange tension resides under the surface of what can be seen..." done.

just because our society encourages (read: enforces) diversity in most situations, that doesn't mean every outlet of human creation must contain every possible form of diversity there is...

taks

 

[Anonymous]

I just dont like the way the characters look, because a supermodel mage in spandex looks terrible goofy. Not to mention the Nu-Metal man with football pants on.

 

[triCritical]

Isn't it the designers job to make sure the artist knows what the characters and people are suppose to look like. I blame the BIoware designers. :wink:

 

[Stark]

Oh, definitely. I used to read Wheel of Time, but I stopped at book 4 because the romances became absolutely convoluted. The leading character (Rand al`Thor) would have dreams of swimming naked and being pleasured by 3 of the female characters in the books while his childhood crush (Egwyne) would look sad in the distance and he would feel bad about it, or something stupid like that.

Book 2 was a culprit of the 'damsel in distress' scenario. It even had a bit of BDSM and torture in it. Hell, all the books do these days with those women from across the ocean who enslave the Aes Sedai women by collaring them and turning them into magical slaves. They tortured Egwene, too. Oh, and the Whitecloaks captain kicked Egwene in the face.

agree on all counts. I'm a male but even I feel uncomfortable reading all the needless, overly drawn out bath scenes (and what one chick tot of another's hair). I never actually think very highly of his books, even the earlier ones (it was obvious alot of plots were not planned out well in advance). the latter ones are just... plain shit. I kept on reading though simply because this cheesy soap opera has a certain... addictiveness to it.

but nothing comes close to being as bad by Terry Goodkind's books which incorporate such wonderful subjects as sadomasochism, rape and childkilling all at once. In graphic detail!

I tried book one, but stopped a few chapters in once i discovered it's so insulting to the readers (the part the female "volunteered" to have mud applied to her whole naked body). I find it amazing he actually has a fan base. I mean, if a male like me find it offensive, what would a female reader think?

Personally, I don't like romances in CRPGs at all. I find them silly, superfilous, and annoying.

yeah, me too. I put up with Jaiheira's interest simply because i needed a druid in my party. (wasn't sure if i reject her would result in her departure). It doesn't help she wants to "talk" during the most inopportunate moment.

 

[Sol Invictus]

It seemed to me that the only things the female characters could say to one another was to compliment their hair, and the overly extensive descriptions of braiding really got on my nerves.

It seems that Robert Jordan was just making the story up as he went along in order to sell more and more of his books. He promised to keep it a trilogy when he started writing the first book but then he 'found out that he couldn't stop writing because the fans demanded more', and that he kept getting more and more money for his crap.

It's bad enough that some of the parts of the books are extremely annoying to read but worse still are the endings which always lead to the heroes killing some uber bad boss who's SUPPOSED to be the big devil himself but turns out not to be -- cue the next book.

 

[Stark]

It seemed to me that the only things the female characters could say to one another was to compliment their hair, and the overly extensive descriptions of braiding really got on my nerves.

agreed. sadly Jordan does not seem to understand women, so all of them come from the same single template reused over and over again. real life women (at least those from my area) do not behave like that. (well, most of them don't)

U're lucky to have stopped at book 4. it does not improve from there. (actually, the recent few books got alot worse). Some people commented that his first few are good, but to me it's crystal clear he never planned it out properly before writing, right from book 1. There're plenty of moments where plot characters act irrationally (just for the sake of bringing out some plot device).

the best fantasy series is still GRR Martin's. until now i've not found any that's remotely even close to what that dude managed to accomplish. Maybe there's a good market for more matured, morally ambiguious and well thought out novels, for the simple reason there's a lack of such offering in the current market.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You should check out Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. They aren't a series per se, but there's definite character continuity in some of the novels. I'd recommend them over any other book.

 

[Stark]

thanks. actually i'm a fan of Terry Pratchett too. think i've gone through most of his books except the earlier few, which my lib does not have.

yeah, i personally rank him pretty high up, close to GRR Martin (though they write very different type of novels)

 

[Voss]

"appropriate for the story" is the way i see it... i'm trying to remember what the chicks in the M&M series were like. hmmm, certainly there weren't any romances.
taks

There wasn't exactly any interaction in the M&M series, so its not a particularly apt comparison.

There could be more depth to a lot of these romances... but honestly theres a lot of people in real life, will drop their pants in a heartbeat, no depth required.
Of course there is a difference between sex and romance.

But the solution, for a lot of you anyway, is a line at the very begining of one of these conversation trees along the lines of:

a) 'shove off'
b) 'yes, I find you quite interesting'
c) 'I think we should stay with a professional relationship' [relation tree ends, never returns]
d) '(blah, etc)'

problem solved, people that don't want romance don't have to see it ever again... as with many things if its an option, it isn't a problem.

Personally, I like them in theory. Complicated ones like PS:T with Annah and Fall from Grace, from preferences, where there are problems and differences as well.

 

[Elwro]

Jordan didn't plan the series beforehand. I read an interview a few years ago in which he blatantly stated that he did not plan any ending to the cycle.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I just don't think it makes any sense for them to run around looking like shirtless bodybuilding Conan-clones in their skivvies. It worked for Conan the Barbarian and it still would, but that cliche is so overused.

It's no more overused than any other fantasy cliche. Males in platemail, rangers in leather, and so forth. Like it or not, there is a strong theme in many fantasy genres of the half naked male guy who runs around vanquishing evil. Everything from Hercules movies, to Beastmaster, to Conan, to Thundar, to He-Man, to Sean Connery in Zardoz, to... Well, you get the point.

To put things into perspective, it makes sense for warriors to have a strong build like Kevin Sorbo or Brad Pitt. Not like Andre the Giant.

Andre the Giant was rather roundish, not muscle bound.

Both chainmail bikini fighters and shirtless barbarians are silly in my book. Kevin Sorbo's Hercules was the best. Greece isn't a beach.

Greece might not be a beach, but it's not like the Greeks wore much clothing back then either.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Oh, but they definitely wore leather. E.g. Troy. They did wear clothing, albeit very light clothing (shirts, togas, and leather armor) but nothing like African tribals. Clothing made them civilized. I don't see why someone who fights so much would have to run around naked for no reason, besides.

 

[DamnElfGirl]

just because our society encourages (read: enforces) diversity in most situations, that doesn't mean every outlet of human creation must contain every possible form of diversity there is...

Perhaps not, but I for one would love to play more games that aren't based on a Tolkeinish fantasy world. Diversity in CRPGs doesn't have to be forced, it can come naturally out of different and interesting settings.

For fantasy games, I would love to see designers create more worlds based on African, Mayan/Aztec, Japanese, Arabic, Celtic, Greek, Native American, Native Australian, etc. etc. etc. folklore.

In science fiiction games, I'd like to see more interesting future and alien cultures. Speculation about alien culture and about how human culture could evolve in the future is a staple of science fiction. Sci-fi and fantasy fish out of water stories are a great way to involve the reader/player, and also tend to involve the main character interacting with a culture very different from our own.

I wouldn't want CRPG designers to make diversity artificial or laboured. But wouldn't it be fun to play games in different settings with well-developed folklore and culture?

 

[JanC]

I don't remember us saying anything like "girls don't play RPGs". I DO remember saying that about 5% of our player base was female, and that made the claim that some posters were making that we weren't being "fair" a bit unreasonable... "fair" has nothing to do with it. "Fair" would have seen us doing a female-oriented romance after first doing about twenty geared to males.

Wow, can it be that bad? I thought that female gamers particularly liked RPGs. I guess that shows you there is something wrong with Bioware game design, if a superficially extremely girl-friendly game like Baldur's Gate only has a 5% female player base.
If you want more female customers, then you will have to start writing games as if they were already playing them. The romance inequality just gave the impression that it was a 'game for boys' with girls as an afterthought. So 'fair' has nothing to do with it. Anyway, I am sure that (stereotypically) girl gamers appreciated the romances more than the lads, so it was a daft decision all round.

I think if anything many female players were upset because Anomen was the only option. If you liked Anomen, great. If you didn't, you felt left out. And seeing as Anomen wasn't created initially to be a romance character (after writing him as a prat he got handed to me later and was told "let's make him a romance"... yay) it was hard for lots of these girls to like him.

Absolutely right. Romance is about choice. I wanted to play a romance in BG2 with an evil female character. The only one available was Anomen. It didn't work. I deliberately made him fail his quest because it was in character for me. It annoyed me because he had much better stats if you passed, but my character was not going to do that. I would have rather had a male Viconia-type character. I stopped playing BG2 right after that. I had previously completed it with a different party that did not include Anomen.
I am a female gamer by the way.

But that's something that I as a designer can pretty much control. Sticking scantily-clad women on the box cover not so much. But it is something we're become more aware of. When Aribeth and her "I'm wearing full plate but, gee, I guess I don't need to have any protection over my FREAKING HEART" goodness was revealed, we made fun of it ourselves.

Lol, I thought you guys could not see how stupid that armour was. Why on earth did you do it if you could see how stupid it looked? Just because of that armour, I could not take Aribeth seriously as a character. And that rather spoils the rest of the plot, since she is the main character, right?

But there is definitely a sense in the entire industry that sex sells (never mind the other perception, which I hate, which is that half-naked women are also a fantasy staple... blame Luis Rojo for that, I guess) and that's a hard one to battle even from the inside. Customers complaining about it is the only way that's going to change, so I say complain away. I think sex appeal has a place in games (I'm not advocating putting all characters in turtleneck sweaters) but I also think there is a fine line between sex appeal and exploitation and I agree that's what needs to stop.

Sex appeal is fine if it works for the character. But it just looks stupid if it doesn't suit the character. It's like Aribeth's armour. She is not a particularly sexual person. She lives for smiting evil in full plate. A 'seductive sorceress' would look perfectly reasonable in revealing clothes.
I don't think sex sells, particularly. If it did, then that DOA beach volleyball game would be the best seller ever.
Lara Croft started out as a sassy adventurer type. Look how the sales went downhill, despite the developers including more and more 'sexy Lara' stuff. Lara Croft started out with lots of female appeal, but they blew it by assuming that only horny teenage boys wanted to play the game.
I don't particularly want to email every company that includes a scantily clad female character, either. I'm not Mary Whitehouse. It's just common sense not to offend 50% of your potential audience in order to get 1% more horny teenage boys.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Speaking of romances, how long until we get some serious same sex romances?

 

[JanC]

Speaking of romances, how long until we get some serious same sex romances?

Lol, remember Ultima7art 2?
There was a lesbian romance in that!

 

[Anonymous]

For fantasy games, I would love to see designers create more worlds based on African, Mayan/Aztec, Japanese, Arabic, Celtic, Greek, Native American, Native Australian, etc. etc. etc. folklore.

Those would be pretty interesting, but i'm still waiting for a game to finally get Norse stuff right already and still be a good game. Almost every one based on it is either incredibly shitty in gameplay or getting the stuff straight or both.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I'm not too interested in anything other than Norse, Christian (the old testament had some cool shit in it. how come nobody's ever made a good game out of it?) and Chinese folklore. Aboragine-based folklore could be pretty awesome, though - given their strange, 'circular' conception of time.

Here's an example: A million years ago happened last week in that cave.

Explanation: The fossils you see embedded on ground in that cave weren't actually there before last week. They didn't exist there. It's only last week that a million years suddenly appeared into existence and now everyone thinks, "Hey, those fossils were there all along! Funny we never saw them eh, mates? No worries."

That could create some pretty damn interesting sequences in an RPG. Perhaps making it so that the status of the character is reflected in his surroundings e.g. if he's a good guy, the surroundings are filled with good people, nice buildings, civilized society.

On the other hand, you could create a whole lot of more interesting complications relating to the whole time concept there by making it so that doing good in fact reflects poorly upon the world, and doing evil reflects very well. It'd create some VERY interesting utilitarian dilemmas there.

 

[Mr. Teatime]

In response to the 'appeal more to girls' line, it would actually appeal more to me as well. One of the reasons I think Bioware sucks is because of the attitude toward women and the way they're portrayed, this wallpaper being discussed being a prime example. I think I said it before, but it's not only women who can be offended by this stuff.

 

[taks]

Isn't it the designers job to make sure the artist knows what the characters and people are suppose to look like. I blame the BIoware designers. :wink:

not necessarily... at this stage of the game, you're talking about marketing...

taks

 

[taks]

There wasn't exactly any interaction in the M&M series, so its not a particularly apt comparison.

not as much but there was some. either way, my point was directed at what the chicks in M&M looked like... no buxom blondes running around in bikini armor.
taks

 

[Stark]

Explanation: The fossils you see embedded on ground in that cave weren't actually there before last week. They didn't exist there. It's only last week that a million years suddenly appeared into existence and now everyone thinks, "Hey, those fossils were there all along! Funny we never saw them eh, mates? No worries."

err... "The Last Continent"?

:D