VentilatorOfDoom said:
Great post, Ventilator. I don't agree with everything (see below), but damn, it was a well thought through, well presented response. Bravo!
Now, some comments:
"Challenging, tactical combat" :
1) Challenging: I played on hard, now on nightmare and I can assure you there is no challenge to speak of in DA - if you don't count the challenge of crafting potions, mid-combat if need be . Every single lich (at least if you actually fight them and don't resort to cheese) in BG2 poses a bigger threat to the party than even the archdemon in DA. And not only is drinking potions the pinnacle of tactics to overcome the challenges in DA - no, most often it is the only thing that works at all.
You think you can face Demogorgon in BG2 armed with no plan, unprepared, without the right spells memorized, but in possesion of 50 healing potions and prevail?
Somewhat agree. Three comments:
- potions are more of an exploit that fuck up the system than an integrate part of the combat design. The combat is challenging because if you don't spam potions and don't watch what you're doing, you'll die easily.
- you compare DA combat overall to the toughest enemies in BG2: the super hard Demogorgon, which was the expansion end boss, and liches which were the only serious enemies in the game.
- you say "if you don't resort to cheese", defending the BG design, yet spamming potions in DA is the worst kind of cheese, wouldn't you agree? In other words, you're applying two different standards.
2) tactical:
That means you should have options, many options and different approaches to win specific encounters. Not only lacks DA the options - even worse it doesn't even require them, using the exact same approach for every encounter wins you the game easily.
As soon as you fight some boss...
Disagree.
- the enemy #1 is DA is a crowd, not a boss. The game gives you a plenty of options to deal with crowds and keep them from overpowering you.
Again, if you are not spamming potions, you can't just click on enemies until they die.
Winning the fight by utilizing healing until you slowly mowed the boss down. Are there other options? No. Is this the pinnacle of applied tactical combat? I doubt it.
It's not, but see above.
Or fighting the cowled wizards that come after you (don't pay for the licence) if you cast spells in Athkatla.
I've already agreed that the mage fights and mages were done better in BG2.
The only combat related thing I prefer in DA is the fact that rogues and especially warriors are more interesting to play than in DnD CRPGs. That's an improvement.
Agree.
However every encounter in DA basically has you do the same thing. I'm pretty sure the inflexibility of the spellsystem is to blame, because you couldn't do things differently even if you wanted to. In BG2 you can handle things differently (and no Grifthin, "Well in Buldurs gate 2 every battle went exactly the same way" is pure nonsense, you wouldn't even be able to win certain difficult fights that way)
That's what I disagree with. With the exceptions of few enemies you could just click on things until they died, partly because only spell casters were given any options, and partly because there was no real reason to try anything.
- you enter Firkraags dungeon
- a couple of Orcs, no matter
- vampiric mists, you use someone protected from leveldrain and Azuredge or Mace of Disruption
Or buy spells removing the effects, which is what I did.
- next level, orcs shoot at you from both sides, doors are hidden, you cast invis on the party, then have a thief detect and open the doors, have a fighter deal with the orcs
Never bothered with it. Orcs were easy to kill, so marching in, directing your spellcasters and ranged fighters at the orcs, while sending your thief to open the doors, and then directing your fighters at the orcs was enough.
- you meet some golems, you use someone who can take a beating, Haerdalis or a fighter/mage with access to mirror image, use a scroll of protection from poison vs the poison cloud of the adamantine golem
Or just kill the fuckers and heal the survivors. The golems go down easily. The adamantium golem is a , but if I recall correctly, he can't get through the narrow entrance, so send in your best fighter, have him fuck the golem to death while you cast healing spells on him.
- next room, weak orcs, kill them or not
- next room powerful undead, if you're high enough level it will be like 15 ancient vampires, a real threat. you hide your party and use someone with the amulett of power, or turn them, or sunray
Killed them all without stopping to think that they were powerful undead and appreciate the quality of the design.
- many doors with genies behind them, you use a mage with true sight and protection from fire, kill them with chromatic orb
Used someone with true sight (Keldorn, I think), send in the fighters, took some damage from the fire, but the genies weren't challenging enough to require tactics. They only required someone with true sight.
- a room with an elder orb, you're buffed? antimagic ray will debuff you at once and make casting impossible, you use someone with rage to hit hard and ignore most effects of the rays, or you use someone with high MR
Same as before. Send in the fighters, click on the orb until the job is done.
- you find treasure, another adventuring party attacks, you retreat your party and have your mage unleash 2x sunfire amidst them, or skull traps while under the effect of protection from magical energy
That was one of the toughest battles in the area. Tried it at least 5-7 times, had to prepare each time, come up with a strategy, memorize the right spells, etc.
- you enter next level and talk to the Dragon then you have to defeat a high level wizard
Wasn't a challenge.
- you go back to kill the dragon, certainly a special approach is warranted here? You make everyone immune to fire with potions/scrolls, you cast remove fear, you have the melee attack him, while the mages cast 2x lower resistance (yes in Bg2 you can actally remove the boss-resistances with the right spells), a cleric casts doom, a mage cast malison, and then you try to kill him with Chromatic Orb or FoD
The dragon was very challenging. Took me more than 20 attempts and much frustrated rage to kill him.
So, I'd say that BG2 had maybe 20 really good and challenging fights that are better than anything DA has to offer, but overall, DA is more challenging because the average enemies in DA are harder than average enemies in BG. Considering that fighters and rogues have no combat options in BG and simply whack monsters until they die, DA wins by a small margin.
