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Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
And is it not quite telling that the most memorable fights were the hard counterish ones?
Mages,dragons,beholders,illithids.

Like I said, I don't think the rock-paper-scissors nature of those fights is what made them memorable.

I realy hope he does. But IWD2's way is not the correct solution, and that is the only example of Sawyer's design i have seen so far.

Again, IWD1 and IWD2 were both low level campaigns with low level abilities and low level-style encounters. There wasn't really a "IWD2 way", because IWD2 didn't address the problem, it just avoided it.

In fact, for that reason alone you shouldn't expect to see "mage duel" type stuff in PE anyway (although you might, since PE has a much greater focus on special abilities than AD&D).
 

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And is it not quite telling that the most memorable fights were the hard counterish ones?
Mages,dragons,beholders,illithids.

Like I said, I don't think the rock-paper-scissors nature of those fights is what made them memorable.
Hope you are right. And if you are that Sawyer understands that "something" that made them memorable.
Again, IWD1 and IWD2 were both low level campaigns with low level abilities and low level-style encounters. There wasn't a "IWD2 way", because IWD2 didn't address the problem, it just avoided it.

In fact, for that reason alone you shouldn't expect to see "mage duel" type stuff in PE anyway (although you might, since PE has a much greater focus on special abilities than AD&D).
Not sure what you mean here. BG2 started at 7 level. IWD2 finished around 17.
 

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Not sure what you mean here. BG2 started at 7 level. IWD2 finished around 17.

Hmm yeah, it's been too long since I played it, but it did start you out at a low level and never really put you through that same "OK, you're going to be mostly fighting enemy NPC parties from now on" mid-game gameplay transition that Baldur's Gate did. Different sort of game, smaller scope.
 

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They had. Inquisitor had like 2 most badass counters in the game, as well as other kits.
Fighters had exclusive potions and equipment, too, which only they could use.
Personally, I think all that "hard counters" stuff is overblown, as BG2 is perfectly playable with mages, without mages, full clerical party, full multi-class party and solo-able probably with every class out there.

A group of one Inquisitor and 5 Wizard Slayers is pretty hilarious.
 

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IWDs don't get praised for this even though they have also cool spel.s and abilities. IWD2 "mage battles" were nonexistent.
IWD 1 and 2 had some great battles with enemy spellcasters, I wrote about them in my articles.
 

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IWDs don't get praised for this even though they have also cool spel.s and abilities. IWD2 "mage battles" were nonexistent.
IWD 1 and 2 had some great battles with enemy spellcasters, I wrote about them in my articles.
They weren't memorable as Mage vs Mage thought the way BG2 battles were.
 

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IWDs don't get praised for this even though they have also cool spel.s and abilities. IWD2 "mage battles" were nonexistent.
IWD 1 and 2 had some great battles with enemy spellcasters, I wrote about them in my articles.
Mages died like flies in IWD2, there was never a reason to go 'oh shit' when you came across one. If you found the mages battles in IWD challenging, I dare say you played poorly. When you met a mage in BG2 it was reversed.. especially with mods.

Infinitron If the whole BG saga can be soloed by any class without dying once, then I think it's fair to say mages are not unreasonable in that game, for anyone.. they might be annoying at times, but counter-able.
 

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Infinitron If the whole BG saga can be soloed by any class without dying once, then I think it's fair to say mages are not unreasonable in that game

I don't really accept these kinds of powergaming achievements as evidence for anything. They typically require all sorts of "degenerate" tactics - kiting, metagaming, save-scumming, etc.

Bottom line, I think the BG2 mage duel nostalgists need to ask themselves what they want.

If you want powerful, dangerous mages that can do a lot of damage and might have some defenses that need to be removed, then PE might just give you that.

If you want mages that are just flat out more badass than every other class at the same level, then yeah, that's not gonna happen. And if you're disappointed about that, than let me remind you of another game that had OP mages - the first game in the series this thread is supposed to be about. :M
 

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They are done without any reloading, there is a few massive threads with the people running them on the bioware forums. It gets old when people dont accept accomplishments because they cant pull them of, themselves. how do you even reason with that type of logic?
 

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The idea that there has to be balance between spellcasters and fighters in RPGs is a red herring for the failure of RPGs to differentiate between spellcasters and fighters in their basic story and roleplaying structures.

Mages, in the vast majority of RPG settings in existence, are a peerless force; the very nature of their trope makes them a symbolic proxy for mortals who aspire to divine status. In Tolkien, the Maiar wizards are literally divine and are the biggest badasses in Middle Earth next only to gods themselves. In D&D, just about every Big Bad who isn’t a god / dragon is an archmage. At a lore level, the idea that mages have to be balanced against guys with swords – even guys who are very, very skilled with swords - is simply ludicrous. I laugh each time I see a game - eg every MMO in existence - where a mage throws a Bolt of Cosmic Annihilation at a dude and it does the same amount of damage that a crit from a broadsword does.

That a mage who has mastered the secrets of the universe isn’t able to effect change greater than a brute with a giant club is a testament to the pathetic lack of C&C in RPGs and their reduction thereof to progression combat simulators. It's not a design choice to be brushed over via an argument of balance.
 
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The idea that there has to be balance between spellcasters and fighters in RPGs is a red herring for the failure of RPGs to differentiate between spellcasters and fighters in their basic story and roleplaying structures.

Mages, in the vast majority of RPG settings in existence, are a peerless force; the very nature of their trope makes them a symbolic proxy for mortals who aspire to divine status. In Tolkien, the Maiar wizards are literally divine and are the biggest badasses in Middle Earth next only to gods themselves. In D&D, just about every Big Bad who isn’t a god / dragon is an archmage. At a lore level, the idea that mages have to be balanced against guys with swords – even guys who are very, very skilled with swords - is simply ludicrous. That a mage who has mastered the secrets of the universe isn’t able to effect change greater than a brute with a giant club is a testament to the pathetic lack of C&C in RPGs. It's not a design choice to be brushed over via an argument of balance.

In classic PnP, the "brute with the giant club" eventually gets his own castle and army, so it's not that simple

But yeah, CRPGs aren't fueled by the infinite power of the DM's mind. For some people that's an insurmountable problem with the genre, others just say "fuck it, let's have some tactical combat with fireballs"
 

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The idea that there has to be balance between spellcasters and fighters in RPGs is a red herring for the failure of RPGs to differentiate between spellcasters and fighters in their basic story and roleplaying structures.

Mages, in the vast majority of RPG settings in existence, are a peerless force; the very nature of their trope makes them a symbolic proxy for mortals who aspire to divine status. In Tolkien, the Maiar wizards are literally divine and are the biggest badasses in Middle Earth next only to gods themselves. In D&D, just about every Big Bad who isn’t a god / dragon is an archmage. At a lore level, the idea that mages have to be balanced against guys with swords – even guys who are very, very skilled with swords - is simply ludicrous. That a mage who has mastered the secrets of the universe isn’t able to effect change greater than a brute with a giant club is a testament to the pathetic lack of C&C in RPGs. It's not a design choice to be brushed over via an argument of balance.

In classic PnP, the "brute with the giant club" eventually gets his own castle and army, so it's not that simple

But yeah, CRPGs aren't fueled by the infinite power of the DM's mind. For some people that's an insurmountable problem with the genre, others just say "fuck it, let's have some tactical combat with fireballs"

You don't need infinite power. You just need to see beyond the strictures of balance imposed by the progression combat simulator ethos.

A RPG doesn't need to be a combat simulator, and even in the case that it's chosen to be one, it does not need to apply the same limitations to fighters and mages.

BG 2 is not the best example of a game that distinguishes between mages and fighters when it comes to in-game scenarios, but it is the best example of a game that did not care about balance.

The main challenge for a mage in BG 2 was figuring out what spells to use and how to get them. For a fighter, it was which support party members to use and how to get the necessary equipment. Both were challenging in their own ways. Why then does it matter that mages were ultimately able to achieve shit on their own that fighters needed a party to do? Is the game experience lessened for fighters by the disparity in ultimate power? Is it lessened because in THEORETICAL ONE ON ONE PVP SCENARIOS fighters lack the same tactical recourse that mages have? Sorry, but that's munchkin talk.

The ideal RPG is one that allows players to experience the narrative and the world through different eyes, of which fighter and mage are only two, and where the only balance is the meta game insurance that both experiences are of a high craftsmanship. Yet, even failing that, developers ought to look for why exactly they think they need to balance mages with fighters such that the former become the equivalent of an archer who shoots fireballs and wears Mage Armor +5 instead of Studded Leather +1. It’s bad enough that MMOs are infested with the mentality that everybody needs to have the same capability in THEORETICAL ONE ON ONE PVP SCENARIOS due to their preoccupation with players getting the same returns out of their grinds. Single-player RPGs, which have no fundamental need to cultivate inter-player fairness, ought to understand that the value of a piece on the board is not whether min/maxers end up stacking their party with it, but whether it leads to a greater variety - and depth - of tactical thinking.
 

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Why then does it matter that mages were ultimately able to achieve shit on their own that fighters needed a party to do? Is the game experience lessened for fighters by the disparity in ultimate power?

Actually, yes. For some players, it is.

Now, if you could keep what was great about BG2 mage battles, the exact same combat dynamics, the exact same cool abilities - but also give fighters extra powers for those players interested in using them, wouldn't that be something worth doing?
 

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Why then does it matter that mages were ultimately able to achieve shit on their own that fighters needed a party to do? Is the game experience lessened for fighters by the disparity in ultimate power?

Actually, yes. For some players, it is.

Now, if you could keep what was great about BG2 mage battles, the exact same combat dynamics, the exact same cool abilities - but also give fighters extra powers for those players interested in using them, wouldn't that be something worth doing?
Wouldn't that just make fighters = mages with different graphical effects. The reason to have fighters in IE games is because they can efficiently complete tasks a mage can't, it seems silly to make mages compete with fighters for the same role. Part of the reason that entire BG2 mage duel thing was cool was because it had mages.... fighting mages, rather than most other RPG's where mages focus on cleaning up trash..... Though I'm probably just miss reading what you really meant.
 
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If only one single class in an RPG with multiple classes can counter an ability, then that ability is overpowered.

I don't think overpowered is the correct term...uninteractive is the more apt term by which to critique the design. Something can be uninteractive but not very powerful. Imagine a spell buff that can only be brought down by a casting of Delayed-Blast Firebal; it resists all other methods of dispelling, even powerful antimagic. It's incredibly narrow, but there's numerous conceivable effects by which it would not be overpowered (e.g. immunity to cold damage, +5% max HP, etc).

I'll make the assumption that your critique is more aimed at the Conjuration/Abjuration-based protective spells (as Illusion magic could be handled by everyone but Fighters) used by Mages in BG2. There's no denying that those protections, barring consumables, can only be taken down by Mages (Inquisitors and higher-level Priests can overwhelm them with Dispel Magic, but lack the pinpoint countermeasures). But these aren't terribly difficult to work around in most situations. Stoneskins can be quickly shredded by high Attacks-Per-Round, the Mantle spells are very short duration affairs (and only Absolute Immunity really protects against a decently-equipped party), and the Spell Absorption/Turning/Deflection/Immunity spells pretty much only exist to protect Mages from enemies versed in the arcane arts themselves. It somewhat restricts Divine casters, who have a lot less targeted offensive magic, but is completely inconsequential for Fighters and Thieves.

The biggest pain-in-the-ass is when Liches or Mariliths cast Protection From Magical Weapons, because their innate immunities overlap with the spell making any weapon classes (that aren't packing Carsomyr) feel utterly useless. But that's more a fault of stacking innate immunities on things in order to make them more difficult, a type of design I'm not terribly fond of (but Black Isle and Sawyer sure were in the Icewind Dale series :M).

Other than that, Abjuration/Conjuration-based shields aren't really all that "overpowered" despite the fact that only Mages can fully (and "innately") interact with them; they just don't do If you really want an example of something from BG2 being overpowered through uninteractivity look no further than Time Stop. That's stupidly overpowered because it's entire schtick is to render the opponent unable to respond in any way and it fuels the vast majority of retarded cheese in BG2 (Wish and the Pocket Plane are extremely close seconds). Outside of a few ways of interrupting it, there's nothing an opponent can do against it no matter what class they are.

Your ability to conduct teh awesome mage duels in BG2 would not be harmed if fighters had some abilities to help them cope with mages.

They do have plenty of ways to "cope" with mages. They just aren't all that great at it and have to rely on either items, kit abilities (hello Wizard Slayer), or tactics that allow them to play around the Mage abilities. Or enlist the help of the rest of the party; it's a class-based system designed for parties, you can't ask for too much.

And trying to make every class able to interact at a high level with any given ability/strategy could very well lead to homogenization/ of gameplay and kill diversity of options as streamlined mechanics are much easier to balance for or around. It took me awhile to make the (now) obvious connection, but a lot of Sawyer's philosophy sounds similar to Wizards of the Coast "New World Order" design implemented in Magic: the Gathering.

They wanted to balance the game out and make it so decks/colors would have more direct interaction with one another which, to put it short, led to a whole lot of good mechanics getting the axe and the majority of gameplay being relegated to the In-Play Zone (I'm still butthurt about some of the M10 rules terminology sounding so shitty; "Battlefield", really?). in the most boring way. Standard Constructed (Type 2) basically consists of Aggro and a spectrum of "goodstuff" decks that goes from Midrange to "Control" but all play very similarly; drop dudes that have good bodies and give card advantage while playing really powerful Instants/Sorceries. Gone are the days of many interesting decks with unique playstyles and internal logics...now we have "balance" and "interactivity" with a bunch of decks that all tend to fit into the same playstyle. At least Wizards hasn't managed to kill Legacy...yet. They certainly keep trying (oh a 3CMC pro-everything in Blue that happens to be a merfolk :retarded:).

And that's what my issue with Sawyerism is. It's not the principles in as much that said principles are hard to follow while maintaining other elements that contribute to the quality of the game. When you make balance such a priority it comes with a cost; other elements may suffer and certain player demographics won't appreciate this trade-off...demographics likely well represented on fair Codexia.

It also doesn't help that while Sawyer talks a big game, he has very little to show for it. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

IWD 1 and 2 had some great battles with enemy spellcasters, I wrote about them in my articles.

IWD1 was pretty poor in this regard. Spellcasters were few in number and most were incredibly vulnerable; rarely did they come in groups and even when they did, their frailty couldn't be overlooked. Malavon is about the only mage who can survive a "LOLFIREBALLS" alpha-strike and he's basically just Davaeorn (guy who pre-buffs and teleports from BG1) with Iron Golems instead of Battle Horrors. BG1 generally did a much better job solely because it had a lot more casters throughout the game and often battles against them would be "forced" encounters where you couldn't get the drop. Still Wands, Oils of Fiery Burning, and other instant-speed casts could quickly shred them and was almost always the right move to make.

IWD2 did a lot better job of dispersing spellcasters throughout the game, but they still were incredibly fragile without all of the proprietary mechanics BG2 grafted on to defend casters (and the"cheaty" scripts that would allow certain casters to pre-buff). The correct play was always to hit them hard with everything you could, likely from your own casters and there was nothing most enemies could do about it. Casters that also happened to be liches, avatars, dragons, beholders, or demons could prevail against alpha strikes with their innate staying power, but your average mage/priest was a damage magnet.

This style of design worked in certain Gold Box encounters and Knights of the Chalice, but only because the scale of the fights. Often you would be up against large quantities of enemies spread out over an area where an alpha-strike was impossible; offensive magic was neither numerous enough nor able to impact enough of the battlefield. Some spells were simply going to get through no matter how well your party handled it's first actions because of the sheer volume of enemies that could sling magic (not to mention, such fights could also have multiple demons/dragons/vampires/beholders you wanted to remove).
 
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The idea that there has to be balance between spellcasters and fighters in RPGs is a red herring for the failure of RPGs to differentiate between spellcasters and fighters in their basic story and roleplaying structures.

Mages, in the vast majority of RPG settings in existence, are a peerless force; the very nature of their trope makes them a symbolic proxy for mortals who aspire to divine status. In Tolkien, the Maiar wizards are literally divine and are the biggest badasses in Middle Earth next only to gods themselves. In D&D, just about every Big Bad who isn’t a god / dragon is an archmage. At a lore level, the idea that mages have to be balanced against guys with swords – even guys who are very, very skilled with swords - is simply ludicrous. I laugh each time I see a game - eg every MMO in existence - where a mage throws a Bolt of Cosmic Annihilation at a dude and it does the same amount of damage that a crit from a broadsword does.

That a mage who has mastered the secrets of the universe isn’t able to effect change greater than a brute with a giant club is a testament to the pathetic lack of C&C in RPGs and their reduction thereof to progression combat simulators. It's not a design choice to be brushed over via an argument of balance.

There's a degree of cross-class balance in D&D anyway. An archmage might disintegrate a small group of high-level fighters in a straight-up combat (if he isn't taken by surprise with all protections down), but a master thief with appropriate gear (or a fighter-thief) is quite capable of knifing him in his sleep.

And this being D&D, a similar level fighter is more than capable of survivng an entire flurry of being-stabbed-in-the-face before waking up, yawning and ganking the same thief.
 

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Wouldn't that just make fighters = mages with different graphical effects.
You don't have to give them the exact same spells & abilites (something that 4th edition tried to do and failed). Most fighter skills are passive, so they don't require any attention on a RTwP game and playing them ends up boring. Had the game been turn-based and with a bit more active skills like power blow, bull rush, shield bash and all that, no one would complain.
 
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set

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I just don't know what to say about DA3. DA2 was such a let down... and DA:O itself was a masterwork of mediocrity - brilliant in some ways, but weighted down by awful WoWisms and consolitis. With no one at the helm of DA3 with any historical credibility and the same publisher holding the ransom money, I don't even understand why there's any discussion.

The gameplay looks a bit like party Dark Souls or party Skyrim. It's very impressive considering the quality of BioWare's combat systems in the past - please, go play Jade Empire again and try not to puke - but it's nothing that I want out of an RPG. Dark Souls gets my dollar because it's tense, with just you and a sword trapped in an awful dank corridor somewhere. Dragon Age 3 would get my dollar not if it could attempt the same (you can't, not with a party and the lore of Dragon Age), but if it would deliver a narrative that doesn't make me cringe amidst an entourage of characters and locales... maybe I'd buy it. If I were being extremely demanding, I'd ask for resource management and head-scratching itemization puzzles (Do I use the cursed sword that drains my life? Or the holy sword that doesn't let me use a shield?) with non-linear non-shoebox dungeons. But I know I won't get that, I haven't gotten anything resembling that since Diablo, Baldur's Gate, or VTMB.

No, I'm still being too picky.

I would buy Dragon Age 3 if it were the least bit challenging and if its story were told professionally enough that I could buy it for at least a moment. Because I'm that desperate for anything that resembles an RPG. But I can already tell I won't be challenged. Dedicated potion buttons and forced over-the-shoulder camera... the last thing we need to make it a proper sequel to Dragon Age is make thieves have no core function in any part of the game's systems and make sure 98% of enemy encounters happen after you stride up and chat with them - because may the gods forbid I be allowed to initiate combat on my terms, may the gods forbid positioning ever matter, may the gods forbid I even choose to run away or avoid combat! Because why does a room need more than one entryway into it? If combat is strictly optional, it will always be easy, because it then must always be designed for the LCD to beat it.
 

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Hey, an on-topic post!

Wouldn't that just make fighters = mages with different graphical effects.

Yeah, what felipe said. For example, here are the PE fighter abilities we know about: http://eternity.gamepedia.com/Fighter

Abilities
They have an unnamed passive abillity that auto regenerates Stamina and built-in defenses against critical hits. [3]
  • Defender – sacrifices melee accuracy for melee defense. Can be toggled off or on.
  • Melee Accuracy (passive) – small accuracy bonus for all melee weapons.
  • Surge – regenerates stamina rapidly for a short amount of time
  • Armored Grace (passive) – increases the Damage Threshold benefit from armor[4]
  • Knockback – an active abillity.[5]

(note that since physical damage and magical damage work under one standardized system, anything that defends against damage is good against spells too)

They do have plenty of ways to "cope" with mages. They just aren't all that great at it and have to rely on either items, kit abilities (hello Wizard Slayer), or tactics that allow them to play around the Mage abilities. Or enlist the help of the rest of the party; it's a class-based system designed for parties, you can't ask for too much.

OK. But when's the last time you had to "rely on items or rare abilities" or "enlist the help of the rest of the party" to deal with a powerful fighter or rogue? What you're doing here is basically accepting the game's status quo of "mages are the most powerful, the primary challenge in this game is killing mages, deal with it". And you know, that's okay. You can make a fun game which basically boils down to "Mage Hunting Simulator 3000". But not every RPG needs to be that.

could very well lead to

hard to follow

may suffer

+M What do you think of the updates you've seen so far?
 
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Shadenuat

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OK. But when's the last time you had to "rely on items or rare abilities" or "enlist the help of the rest of the party" to deal with a powerful fighter or rogue?
There were a lot of powerful fighters and rogues you had to deal with, starting with golems and trolls, ending with dragons and giants. Thieves also were pretty powerful, as they would hunt down your weakest party member and backstab him. The first party-on-party fight in BG2 can happen right in the prologue, in the tavern where you meet powerful fighters one of which wields cursed sword +3. And minotaur, celestial fury wielder and rogue in celestial fury fight are more dangerous than both mage and cleric there.

Mage fights in BG2 were great, but it doesn't mean that others were slagging behind. Rather because of nature of how in your face magic was, with unique graphical effects; and because main antagonist of the game was mage who also showed off his power right from the start, people became quickly fascinated with it.
 

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I don't consider monsters like Dragons and Beholders to belong to any particular class. (Let's call it "Mage and Epic Monster Hunting Simulator 3000" :smug: )
 

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The whole "wizards were nessesary to win the game" is BS.

OK maybe so, but which is it? Are hard counters fine and good, or maybe they were never hard counters in the first place?

Hard counters makes you think and try new approaches which is interesting and fun. In my opinion though I don't like hard counters that don't make sense, it should be fire elementals that can't be harmed by fire and ghosts that can't be harmed by non-magical weapons.

If the alternative would just be damage reduction then the same fight would be about grinding down their health. Kind of how I would imagine a WOW boss (I never played WOW that far), were tanks stand there to reduce harm so your others can grind down health.

Information about how to hurt these enemies with hard counters should be spread out in the game and in some case you might even ask people about it. Biggest problem here is that players don't really back down from fights, at best they reload and come back later. A player hardly says "Oh shit, I can't harm this one, lets run and figure out how to do it"...
 

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If the alternative would just be damage reduction then the same fight would be about grinding down their health. Kind of how I would imagine a WOW boss (I never played WOW that far), were tanks stand there to reduce harm so your others can grind down health.

Valid argument. Yes, in games without hard counters it's often possible to just sort of "wing it" and not really have to do anything special to grind a boss down and defeat it.

I think the solution here is to make sure there's a long term price for that. So, if you grind, you will also get "grinded" yourself. A game without hard counters that intends to be challenging must never have health regeneration or easy healing, or otherwise there's no real price for grinding.
 
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Kem0sabe

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If the alternative would just be damage reduction then the same fight would be about grinding down their health. Kind of how I would imagine a WOW boss (I never played WOW that far), were tanks stand there to reduce harm so your others can grind down health.

Valid complaint. Yes, in games without hard counters it's often possible to just sort of "wing it" and not really have to do anything special to grind a boss down and defeat it.

I think the solution here is to make sure there's a long term price for that. So, if you grind, you will also get "grinded" yourself. A game without hard counters that intends to be challenging must never have health regeneration or easy healing, or otherwise there's no real price for grinding.

I'm going a bit off field with the following comparison, but i am currently getting into playing Dragons Dogma on my PS3, it's an open world exploration action rpg with a strong tactical combat system, similar in approach to Dark Souls. The encounters i have fought just exploring are almost always challenging, with creature patterns for day and night cycles, having to manage healing, perishable items, lanterns and torches and proper party and skill composition. I'm getting a better combat experience than anything D&D type systems in crpg have managed to do in years.

I feel that games like this and Dark Souls, rpg's that are truly challenging without using a lot of the gimmicks and hard counters that D&D so much likes to use to ramp difficulty, are the future. Proper tactics, positioning, item usage and player skill are in my opinion, the areas developers should be focusing on.
 

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