Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread

[Jedi Exile]

In VtmB, playing as a Nosferatu or Malkavian is significantly different than other classes

The only thing that separates Malks from others is dialogue. Nosferatu get different reactions and are forced to play stealthily in hubs, but that's it. They also weren't playtested at all and it was totally impossible to complete it as one in the shipped release.

Yeah right but Bloodlines is still light years ahead of BioWare games in this regard. Even in Origins differences were only cosmetic or non-existent at all after you complete your origin story; in Bloodlines they actually bothered to write unique dialogue for Malks for entire game.

 

[Roguey]

In VtmB, playing as a Nosferatu or Malkavian is significantly different than other classes

The only thing that separates Malks from others is dialogue. Nosferatu get different reactions and are forced to play stealthily in hubs, but that's it. They also weren't playtested at all and it was totally impossible to complete it as one in the shipped release.

Yeah right but Bloodlines is still light years ahead of BioWare games in this regard. Even in Origins differences were only cosmetic or non-existent at all after you complete your origin story; in Bloodlines they actually bothered to write unique dialogue for Malks for entire game.

Nopers. I was getting mage and elf-specific dialogue sprinkled throughout the entire thing.

It's all cosmetic in Bloodlines.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Edward_R_Murrow Are you really claiming that AD&D doesn't have a "Linear Fighters, Quadratic Wizards" phenomenon? BG2 just happens to feature lots of tough mage fights because Bioware was too lazy to create challenging fighter and rogue opponents?

Nah. My claim's pretty simple: that the way Fighters and Thieves become powerful when utilized by players doesn't play well when used by the AI opposition. To make a Fighter or Thief powerful requires crossing the Rubicon in the untamed wilds of cheap bullshit. There's little Bioware could have done to make encounter-defining Fighters and Thieves.

A good Fighter in BG2 not only deals out massive damage-per-round, but is either highly-resistant or immune to everything relevant. They might also have a ton of HP and regenerate pretty quickly. This isn't really something that's all that fun to fight on a regular basis, because there's little room for interaction. And when the player wins the encounter, there's the whole issue of the equipment said Fighter was using.

Thieves played well are a great example of something that is fun for the player but would be hellish to play against. Shenanigans with backstabs, traps, and Detect Illusion are all greatly entertaining when you're dishing them out...not so much being on the receiving end. And that's really all Thieves can do to be "good" in combat (well, barring Use Any Item stuffies).

Whereas Mages (and Priests to a lesser degree) can be threatening without being cheap, especially in BG2 where there are tons of ways to interact with, or "go around", the protections mages can utilize. The same can't be said for a good Fighter; can't stop equipment or innate, non-magical, abilities.

Because diverse NPC party vs NPC party battles are pretty interesting? Or in other words, why does it NOT matter?

For one, D&D has an enormous bestiary full of things that can fill the general roles provided by player-classes in any given encounter.

And for party on party skirmishes, I may not have communicated entirely well, brother. Representation and prominence do matter to a point; having no Fighters in the ranks of enemy parties would be silly. Same with relegating them to the status of mere fodder. But I don't think every class needs anywhere near equal representation nor prominence in party brawls, as an important principle of design. It's more about the whole machine (encounter) being interesting, rather than any individual part being in a lot of machines.

If anything, BG2 was far more lacking in interesting multi/dual-classed opponents. More Samurai, Lords, Bishops, and Ninja (using Wizardry terms for the hybrids) would be a more pressing concern, I'd think, than affirmative action for Fighters.

 

[Infinitron]

Fighters were just a stand-in for "any non mage class". I wasn't actually referring to them specifically.

Anyway, whether or not you think it's "important" is irrelevant. The question is, is it good or bad? I say it's good to be able to have more and wackier combinations of parties.

 

[Volourn]

Anyone who thinks a fighter - someone who uses physical weapons that need to be crafted - should be as powerful as a mage - someone who can, quite literally - create something out of fukkin' out of nothing merely by thinking about it or flinging bat dung into the air is simply retarted.

Period.

 

[AngryKobold]

But it's a new standard of MMOs, ain't it? You know, that differences in damage dealing between classes are mostly illusory. So after wasting days and days of life on experience grinding, no player will feel bad. Or hit alt+F4.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Anyone who thinks a fighter - someone who uses physical weapons that need to be crafted - should be as powerful as a mage - someone who can, quite literally - create something out of fukkin' out of nothing merely by thinking about it or flinging bat dung into the air is simply retarted.

Period.

Now only if josh understood it.

 

[Rake]

I find myself agreeing with Volourn. Something isn't right here...

 

[2house2fly]

In Eternity fighters are mages; they merely channel their magic into combat power. The subtext of the character creation system and the lore supporting it is basically what you people have been clamouring for: you just pick a subtype of Mage; there are no other classes because who would want to play as them?

 

[Roguey]

I fully expect Bioware to preserve the class balance of DA2 so nyah.

 

[Infinitron]

But it's a new standard of MMOs, ain't it? You know, that differences in damage dealing between classes are mostly illusory. So after wasting days and days of life on experience grinding, no player will feel bad. Or hit alt+F4.

Differences in damage dealing != differences in "power". For example, how do you factor the Fighter's greater HP into his "power" rating? Or his faster attack rate? Or his freedom from resource management constraints?

Class balance can be maintained even in a system where mages do the most damage. AD&D doesn't do that, though.

 

[Volourn]

A game with 'class balance' between mages, warriors,a nd rogues that make them equal is a much shittier and illogical game system. Period.

 

[Roguey]

Templars and backstabbing rogues trump mages Volourn. Video game combat is an abstraction.

Additionally, as I understand it, Conan killed his fair share of wizards. I wouldn't know, never read 'em.

 

[Volourn]

I didn't claim non mages (like Conan) couldn't kill mages, you doofuses.

As for your first example... some foods for thoughts.

A. Templars use MAGIC to battle mages.

B. While a backstabbing rogue is capable of killing an unaware mage that doesn't make them more powerful, you dipshit since more foten than not the m age will make the rogue cry especially one on one. On top of that, many of the abilityies of the DA rogue border on the mystical/magical.

C. DA game system isn't perfect. But, warriors and rogues are NOT the equal of mages in DA.


I win. I win again. I win always.


OH FUCK YEAH!!!!

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Additionally, as I understand it, Conan killed his fair share of wizards. I wouldn't know, never read 'em.

Yeah but usually through using trickery, his wits, having help (whether in terms of artifacts/items or allies, or both), hurling sword in their back etc. instead of taking them head on and prevailing on his combat prowess alone (like he usually does when he faces weapon wielding combatants).

Magic is basically the only thing Conan is afraid of, especially in his younger days.

 

[Shannow]

"Illogical"? A game only needs to be consistent within its own world/rule set.
A world were everybody has magic and physical prowess has been totally put aside. Suddenly guys appear who can throw everybody else around (physically) and are rather resistant to magic. Oops, fighters are suddenly the "most powerful and rare"...
"Mages need to be the most powrful" is simply a prejudice concocted by our cultures (and the lack of actual magic in the real world). Our technology is actually more powerful than most "magic" in fantasy.
But this has always been a nonsense discussion that has never gone anywhere before. And will go nowhere this time.

IMO: Every class should have advantages and disadvantages, situations in which they're good and situations in which they're not (not just combat wise), with dissimal power development over levels, with different reliance on equipment.
Over all that classes should be more or less balanced with the possibility for players to find especially effective developments. (And with the possibility of gimping the char, but only by stupid decisions. Not by choosing a skill that's not supported in the game.)
Trying to make everything always perfectly balanced is like level scaling: Missing the point of RPGs. (Or reducing the point to "choose how you want to rofl-stomp your enemies". The combat equivalent to Bioware dialogue.)

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Differences in damage dealing != differences in "power". For example, how do you factor the Fighter's greater HP into his "power" rating? Or his faster attack rate? Or his freedom from resource management constraints?

Class balance can be maintained even in a system where mages do the most damage. AD&D doesn't do that, though.

You're overblowing the gap in power between mages and other classes in IE games, you have to understand the nuances of the magic system to really have breeze through everything the game throws at you with a mage/sorcerer, not to mention that you have to rest more often (unless you abuse the wish spell with multiple simulacrums or something similar). Limit resting to a much larger degree and remove restore spells trick and suddenly mages while still very powerful and deadly are of more limited use compared to fighter who can hack and slash all day or rogues who can use guerilla hit and run tactics in the same manner.

I'm not saying class balance isn't important but one shouldn't be that anal about it in a single player RPG, each class providing a different, unique experience in a playthrough and being fun to play should always be a priority, for me fighters being largely limited to auto-attack (not counting TOB high level abilities, special item uses etc.) is a much bigger problem than them being weaker than mages, giving them (fighters) unique abilities is a step in the right direction (though I hope not all of them will be geared toward "tank" aspect of that class).

 

[Roguey]

"more foten than not the m age will make the rogue cry especially one on one."

Have a panel of Varric giving a mage what-for in a comic written by David Gaider

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not saying class balance isn't important but one shouldn't be that anal about it in a single player RPG, each class providing a different, unique experience in a playthrough and being fun to play should always be a priority

I don't disagree. A good designer should first decide what unique experiences each class should provide, and then having made that decision, try to keep it as balanced as possible without nerfing anything too much.

The root problem with modern games isn't that they're too balanced - it's that they don't even try (or just fail) to create those "different, unique experiences" in the first place.

 

[Volourn]

"Our technology is actually more powerful than most "magic" in fantasy."

.... L0L... WUT? L0L.... L0L0LLLIP0P HAHAHAHAHAHA! L0L HAHAHAHA! L0L

Magic creates stuff out of nothing.

Technology creates stuff out of something already existing.

GAME OVER. GAME FUKKIN' OVER.


"Have a panel of Varric giving a mage what-for in a comic written by David Gaider|

The panel proves shits, because a)

I never claimed a rogue could NEVER kill a mage b)

That's obviously a sneak attack so the mage was caught unawares c)

It\s a fukkin\ story where the writer has full control and can write all sorts of nonsense and is not based on DA game play FFS and D)

Doesn't change the fact that overall mages are more powerful than rogues in the DA universe.

ITS WHY DA HAS ENTIRE ORGANIZATIONS DEDICTAED TO DESTROYING MAGES BECAUSE THEY FEAR THEIR FUKKIN' POWER


LMFAO

 

[2house2fly]

"Magic creates stuff out of nothing."

depends what magic system you're talking about. I've read plenty of fantasy stories where that isn't the case, and played plenty of games where a finite resource (mana, magicka, whatever) is consumed in the casting of the spell, suggesting that "stuff" isn't exactly being created out of "nothing". Though I'm not familiar enough with dragon Age to say whether that's the case in those games.

 

[Azarkon]

In Eternity fighters are mages; they merely channel their magic into combat power. The subtext of the character creation system and the lore supporting it is basically what you people have been clamouring for: you just pick a subtype of Mage; there are no other classes because who would want to play as them?

Isn't that the obvious problem?

People want to play the class with the greatest combat prowess because combat prowess is the only factor the game rewards them for.

Why don't I want to play a cowardly peddler whose sole redeeming skill is his ability to appraise jewelry to the copper? Why don't I want to play an aging prostitute whose web of personal connections are her only defense in the slums? Why don't I want to play a pampered noble's son who sucks at everything, but who has the benefit of riches, social status, and his father's protection?

The answer is simple. Because even were I allowed to create such a character, games don't support playing it. I get no benefit out of the appraisal skill except a trivial reduction in the price of combat gear. I get no benefit out of my char's personal connections and indeed don't even decide them the bulk of the times. Riches, social status, and a noble man's protection are background cosmetic shit. The game itself allows me to leverage none of it in the course of its ever linear progression.

The mage-fighter problem is a microcosm of the larger problem, which is that CRPGs are built around a one track play style of combat skills being the solution to every problem in every situation. Sure, a few games pay lip service to the idea of resolving quests with dialogue. But 95% of the game is still combat, and not even well designed combat, but the sort of head on engagements that favor classes built around mass stuns and aoes, which in the case of D&D and to a lesser degree DA, were mages.

When the only roleplaying experience the game provides is that of a Nietzschean will-to-combat-power journey, in which satisfaction is gauged in the quantity of beatdown I'm able to deliver over time, then it's obvious that subtypes of the class with the highest / most enjoyable beatdown ability is going to be the only class people want to play. Combat is, after all, nothing but a mathematical system, and min/maxers, without fail, find the optima within such a system. In the end, OP classes, whether they're mages / fighters / thieves / priests, are not avoidable, and when roleplaying games sacrifice the unique identities of their role tropes in the pursuit of cost-minimizing design, then all that they're left with is a hierarchy of diminishing playability.

The transformation of fighters into subtypes of mage is to me nothing other than an admission of defeat by the CRPG development community - that they've resigned themselves to making combat sims for all eternity.

 

[Borelli]

Why don't I want to play a cowardly peddler whose sole redeeming skill is his ability to appraise jewelry to the copper? Why don't I want to play an aging prostitute whose web of personal connections are her only defense in the slums? Why don't I want to play a pampered noble's son who sucks at everything, but who has the benefit of riches, social status, and his father's protection?

I would love to see a party made up of these characters. Not necessarily a videogame story, it can also be a book about these people. It's like the world's most pathetic fantasy party yet they manage to overcome the odds and maybe even become better people during the journey. Character development ahoy!

 

[Dreaad]

^ Read the M.Y.T.H Advetures series. Seriously.

 

[Space Satan]

I wonder, how Baldur's Gate would fare, should they not remove reagent prices for wizards...