Dungeons and Dragons 4E

[Jasede]

Yeah, well, like I said - people will always play Planescape and not care about the new rules. Especially not those. It might be a horrible admittance of my nerdiness, but the people online I know all will stick to 3.5; and use Planescape.

 

[Lumpy]

I liked it! Besides, this kinda means that you have to retcon a lot of shit because in at least the Forgotten Realms, good and evil were supposed to exist and be absolute.

Which is one of the most retcon-deserving things evar.

I also have no idea how this would be compatible with the Planes and Planescape, which are to some important degree bound to that very alignment scale.

Why would it be incompatible? Celestials, demons and such still probably retain alignments. As to the question of where people go when they die - you can just make up some new rules. There already were: people who lie and get others killed, probably chaotic and not necessarily evil, go to the Pillar of Skulls which is on the Lawful Evil plane. Godsmen get reincarnated into animals on one of the primes, I think. And so on.
Perhaps people could go to an afterlife that is the pure representation of what they believe? Dustmen go to Oblivion, Sensates to some Chaotic Good plane of Sensation, Signers each get a demiplane wholly imagined by them.

 

[Lurkar]

Also, the new tieflings have replaced Aasimir as "most boring race imaginable," seeing as they're now "Warlocks: The Class." Literally, that's their entire backstory. They were humans and told some devils to make them into warlocks. Bam, Tieflings.

 

[Jasede]

No, Lumpy. The evil/good/law/chaos thing made D&D kinda special. I thought it was great to have those things really exist for a change. It leads to instant conflict which is a good tool.

But of course, a good DM can do anything with any system. Nobody should care much about D&D 4.0, except for, of course, the fear that games will be based on that... system.

 

[Lurkar]

No, Lumpy. The evil/good/law/chaos thing made D&D kinda special. I thought it was great to have those things really exist for a change. It leads to instant conflict which is a good tool.

But of course, a good DM can do anything with any system. Nobody should care much about D&D 4.0, except for, of course, the fear that games will be based on that... system.

Honestly, while it should just be a really shitty remake of D&D, that's the part I'm most irritated about. It seems the design is far more based on the statement made in here of "Tell the players what the roles are." Everything so far just seems like the game is spoonfed to you so you can comprehend the vast complexity of rolling a dice and applying a bonus.

And this is even more irritating when you remember that the 4th edition hype was all about "giving the players more choices." Well, it looks like they've turned that completely around.

 

[aboyd]

Planescape is scrapped completely.

The planes themselves have been completely gutted and are pretty much non-existant for the most part.

Wait, what? Is that a statement of unhappiness with how 3.5 reduced Planescape from a standalone setting to a single book with fewer factions? If so, then I'm not worried, because I thought Planescape came out pretty much fine in the 3.0 and 3.5 rules. However, if you meant, "I read the new info about 4.0 and they make it clear that Planescape is completely gutted" then I AM worried and quite sad. I haven't heard what their plans are for 4.0. Are they really gutting it? Is that based upon something you read?

I think all these so called rule upgrades are a total scam. Yeah, that's right, they're a SCAM...

...in the same way that the next hyped game gets you to jump to your local electronics store because that $200 graphics card you purchased 1 year ago is supposedly rendered 'obsolete' by new 'requirements'.

Planned obsolesence : first with cars, then with TV's, then with graphic cards, and now with rulesets.

Um... "now?" Now with rulesets? We're on version 3.5 already. The rulesets have been "going obsolete" for 30 years. It's not new.

In addition, while I respect your animosity over the upgrade, I play 3.5 pretty often, and I would put value on improvements. I don't expect them to have a perfectly balanced and playtested system with edition 1.0, and I don't think it's a deliberate conspiracy to leech money away from me, either. I'd appreciate having someone rethink and retest some of the murky aspects of the game, and I'm willing to pay a bit for that.

For example, clerics turning undead? Lame dice rolling for that. Grapples? Not so quick to resolve either. Combining hide & move silently so you just have one "stealth" roll? Yeah, I'm OK with that. Many of their revisions to the rolls make things much quicker to resolve, without losing much (or any) of the statistical nuance. I didn't think that was possible at first -- remove dice rolls and it's a lossy math, right? But no. For example, in 4.0, for saves against area affects, the caster rolls once and it applies to defenses of each character. That's reversed from how it is in 3.5 -- each player rolls a save. Since the players will now just apply their save number to the caster's roll, you get to keep the individual odds without needing each individual to roll. So I think that's a worthy change where nothing (or little) is lost, but the gameplay can cruise along more swiftly.

Looks like 4E is going the way of Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic where every class has "spells" that they cast.

I hate that. I do not understand why non-spellcasters are suddenly getting to be spellcasters. I didn't like it back in older editions when spellcasters got to be thieves, too (with spells like Knock). I would very much embrace some kind of technology vs. magic concept where magic could not affect complicated machinery -- thus a gear-filled lock or trap would not be easily defeated by a spellcaster, making the thief more necessary.

Er... thieves are now rogues, aren't they? I always forget that.

 

[Lumpy]

I just got to the part about classes. Looks like 4E is going the way of Book of Weeaboo Fightan Magic where every class has "spells" that they cast.

Wut? Shit.
I hope DnD computer games will be 3rd for a while more.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Well we can expect at least another nwn 2 expansion.
What do you guys think will happen to crpgs based on D&D now that 4e comes with this whole online component that already simulates a crpg with crappy graphics and no animations?

 

[Andhaira]

The online component is basically simlar to play by post and play by chat roleplaing. basically it will have ral time chat + headset +maps + mini's. good idea actually, though aI iwll always prefer pbp rplaying.

Anyhow, i'm just glad the paladin'z detect evil is gone.

 

[Norfleet]

Also, the new tieflings have replaced Aasimir as "most boring race imaginable," seeing as they're now "Warlocks: The Class." Literally, that's their entire backstory. They were humans and told some devils to make them into warlocks. Bam, Tieflings.

I would imagine that the attempt was a miserable failure, given that Warlocks should have high Cha, and tieflings in the 3.5 were -2 Cha. Unless those stats got changed around in 4E, I REALLY don't think a race that has a penalty in one of the core attributes of a class qualifies as being good at it!

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

I'm betting on +2 Dex and +2 Cha bonuses for Tieflings.

 

[Keldorn]

No, Lumpy. The evil/good/law/chaos thing made D&D kinda special. I thought it was great to have those things really exist for a change. It leads to instant conflict which is a good tool.

Yeah, leave some room for polarized, hyper-simplistic morality spheres, will ya ? Why must everything be metrosexualized, greyified, complexified and progressified ?

The desire to make all high-fantasy elements realistic according to our contemporary reality standards, contradicts the entire purpose and pith of high-fantasy art in the first place.


Dammit, now I'm steaming mad, like oatmeal !

In fact, I now am chaotic-good !

 

[Keldorn]

Um... "now?" Now with rulesets? We're on version 3.5 already. The rulesets have been "going obsolete" for 30 years. It's not new.

In addition, while I respect your animosity over the upgrade, I play 3.5 pretty often, that.

Yeah, but where do exponential ruleset upgrades end ? They NEVER do, and THAT'S the problem.

Eventually, ultimately, they'll be hiring physicists, chemists and medical doctors to oversee and review the ruleset upgrades, to assure they are entirely in accordance with confirmed contemporary science and reality.


Goodbye whimsical & arbitrary fantasy rule infrastructure,, hello uber-realism...


This is why retro scenes and traditionalist preferences continue to exist... because the neverending yearning for progress is best left OUT of certain forms of art & entertainment, even if it is remote & exceptional.

 

[Lumpy]

Yeah, leave some room for polarized, hyper-simplistic morality spheres, will ya ? Why must everything be metrosexualized, greyified, complexified and progressified ?

What? No, really, is that sarcasm?

 

[Keldorn]

No.

I, and others, just want a small, even *minute* segment of the RPgaming industry to be retro, stagnant, elementary, simple, even unrealistic and silly.

...kinda like That 70's Show.

 

[dolio]

Wait, what? Is that a statement of unhappiness with how 3.5 reduced Planescape from a standalone setting to a single book with fewer factions? If so, then I'm not worried, because I thought Planescape came out pretty much fine in the 3.0 and 3.5 rules. However, if you meant, "I read the new info about 4.0 and they make it clear that Planescape is completely gutted" then I AM worried and quite sad. I haven't heard what their plans are for 4.0. Are they really gutting it? Is that based upon something you read?

There's no more wheel of planes cosmology, which most people consider fairly integral to the Planescape setting, I gather. So if Planescape survives, it'll either have a lot of changes, or it'll have to be totally divorced from the other D&D settings cosmology-wise.

I would imagine that the attempt was a miserable failure, given that Warlocks should have high Cha, and tieflings in the 3.5 were -2 Cha. Unless those stats got changed around in 4E, I REALLY don't think a race that has a penalty in one of the core attributes of a class qualifies as being good at it!

They're moving away from ability score penalties, and, apparently, the standard ability score adjustment is +4, not 0. For instance, the released stats for elves are +2 dex, +2 wis. So, tieflings will probably, at least, not have a charisma penalty.

Frankly, it didn't make much sense to give them a charisma penalty in 3rd edition. They have demon blood, so you'd think they'd have some inherent magical power, and be good sorcerers and whatnot. But, I guess horns are ugly, so -2 cha. Never mind that lots of demons/devils have really high charisma---even the ugly ones. It's really a problem with charisma trying to cover too many areas.

What? No, really, is that sarcasm?

Apparently progressing beyond bronze-age morality is metrosexual.

 

[Lumpy]

No.

I, and others, just want a small, even *minute* segment of the RPgaming industry to be retro, stagnant, elementary, simple, even unrealistic and silly.

...kinda like That 70's Show.

I see your point. Now that 99% of RPGs have realistic morality and have distanced from puerile Good vs. Evil, it's sad that D&D, probably the last bastion of hope for crappy alignment systems, is joining in on the revolution.
Or, maybe, we should be happy that D&D is finally doing what we have hopelessly been asking of games for... how long exactly?

 

[Keldorn]

Just be so kind as to allow us retrotwits an ornament, a momento, even a mirage of the "good 'ol days" ?

Please, and thank-you.

 

[Lumpy]

Just be so kind as to allow us retrotwits an ornament, a momento, even a mirage of the "good 'ol days" ?

Please, and thank-you.

Pretty much every RPG released nowadays is that. The Star Wars RPGs, Jade Empire, the upcoming Fallout 3, and so on.

 

[Jasede]

I'm betting on +2 Dex and +2 Cha bonuses for Tieflings.

Are you stupid? Tieflings get -2 CHA! You can't tell me they'd be so stupid as to turn the negative modifier into a positive one! That would kill all their credibility!

...
...
...

OH SNAP

 

[Lurkar]

I'm betting on +2 Dex and +2 Cha bonuses for Tieflings.

Are you stupid? Tieflings get -2 CHA! You can't tell me they'd be so stupid as to turn the negative modifier into a positive one! That would kill all their credibility!

...
...
...

OH SNAP

Since there are no more demons, tieflings aren't plane-touched anymore. In fact, there is no plane-touched at all anymore.

As I stated above, their new backround is "Long long ago an evil empire summoned a devil to turn them into warlocks. The devil did." They're described as being very charismatic (of course, they're ALSO described as being rebellious teenagers, and good god, I wish I was making that up), so yeah, except +something to Cha.

I think the issue with 4th is that the people making it are all really new to the industry and gaming in general. There were several parts of the designer notes (because that's what all this really is) where I just scratched my head and thought "Did these people ever play D&D to begin with?"

As for planescape, I'm pretty sure it's gutted/gone completely. Same with, interestingly enough, most of the other settings. They're making their own new setting just for 4th. Of course, you can always just stick with 3.5 and hang out in the previous settings like I'll most likely do. Actually, scrap that, you can always just play Unknown Armies, which is a lot better.

 

[Shannow]

So tieflings are the new James Dean? Cool

If they're changing not only the rules, races and classes but also the lore why don't they give it a new name?
Dungeons and Dragons doesn't seem right anymore. Why not something like:
Angels and Devils: High Fantasy strikes back?

 

[Texas Red]

As I stated above, their new backround is "Long long ago an evil empire summoned a devil to turn them into warlocks. The devil did." They're described as being very charismatic (of course, they're ALSO described as being rebellious teenagers, and good god, I wish I was making that up), so yeah, except +something to Cha.

Oh God, please more. MOAR! *fap fap fap* Seriously, can you post any other day dreaming fodder? This is getting more and more pathetic. Do the eyes of tieflings glow brightly according to their emotions and a lock of wavy red hair drop to cover their piercing gaze? They probably have some innate magickal abilities as well that makes them superior to humans, right?

 

[SanguinePenguin]

This made me sad.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/toon/20071219a

 

[Gay-Lussac]

What does that say? It won't show for people who aren't d&d insiders.