From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

[Wunderbar]

Still, if what Wunderbar said is true (about Sony wanting Fromsoft to develop their own Oblivion) I'm very, very worried.

those were old news. I doubt Sony want to make an Oblivion clone right now. Not to mention that ER is published by Bamco.

Hopefully. But I don't trust Scamco, and the success of Bethshit's open-world games are, unfortunately, undeniable, regardless of their actual quality.

i'm more concerned about Bamco trying to ape The Witcher 3.

 

[Silverfish]

Without so much batting an eye on the things they've added in place. Bloodborne has trick weapons,

Is taking any two Souls weapons, cutting half the moveset from each and then slapping them together an addition, though?

The faster dodging and the rally mechanics are there to further reinforce this, you're forced to change the usual approach used for Dark Souls. Whereas previously you have the option to wear heavy armor, tanking attacks with poise (Dark Souls 1), hide behind a shield to poke once in a while if there's an opening, you're now forced to rely solely on (step)dodging attacks, and be as aggressive as you possibly can.

This is blatantly untrue. Bloodborne, like any of its predecessors, can easily be played defensively. Stay out of enemy range, let them exhaust their canned combos and punish. This is arguably the easiest way to damage enemy limbs where applicable, since whiffed attacks usually leave breakable (for lack of a better descriptor) parts wide open.

But Bloodborne's faster dodging and the rally mechanic means you can prolong the offensive without backing off even once, provided you have the skill for it.

Bear in mind that rallying isn't applied equally across all weapons. Heavier or blunt weapons (say, hunter axe or tonitrus) make the most use of it, while others only have a meager gain. For 2/3 of the games weapons, you're typically better off taking the Souls approach, back off and pop a blood vial.

What the fuck am I reading.

The truth.

Other than streamlining the RPG mechanics by cutting it down to only 6 attributes, the game mostly changes in moment-to-moment combat gameplay dynamic due to the things I've said above.

Besides attributes being cut down, equipment burden, poise and, as a corollary, poise damage, stability (remember, in DS it's a stat for weapons as well as shields), curable, but otherwise "permanent" debuffs, off-hand movesets and powerstancing were all removed. I like Miyazaki as much as anyone, but let's not pretend he isn't Japan's answer to Todd Howard.

I don't get the impression that Bloodborne is harder or easier compared to Dark Souls 1, only that it's now a different game which kept some of the formula still the same.

Right, and this middle ground that Bloodborne occupies is exactly the problem. It's too streamlined compared to Souls, but too simplistic compared to Ninja Gaiden or DMC.

If by fewer methods of attack you mean there's only the trick weapons, guns and its variants, and hunter tools (pseudo-spell items like the Augur of Ebrietas), minus pyromancy, magic, miracles, uhhhh should we argue whether or not pyromancy, magic, and miracles fits the setting?

I don't care in the least what fits the setting. My favorite game of all time is Shadow Hearts, which takes place on the cusp of the first world war and yet features hitting people with books as a viable combat tactic.

What other dedicated action games has anything remotely similar to the trick weapons?

DMC has had on the fly weapon swapping since 2003. Shit, CoD has on the fly weapon swapping.

If there's any, does any of them has anything that could rival how Fromsoft designed the gameworld and levels, and pulled off the narrative of Bloodborne?

No, no action game could ever compete with "play 2/3 of the level to find the shortcut back to the checkpoint". To date, I've never played a pure action game that's pulled off a narrative like Bloodborne and I'm eternally grateful for that.

Dude, did you even play the game?

Three times, unfortunately. It took me a long time to overcome my buyers remorse and accept the game's shortcomings.

And if those things don't excite you at all, have you seen THIS:

Spoiler

"I don't think this game has enough variety."

"Oh yeah, well have you seen people spamming the same things over and over again? Bet you feel foolish."

 

[Black Angel]

Is taking any two Souls weapons, cutting half the moveset from each and then slapping them together an addition, though?

Y-you didn't play the game, do you?

How is an entire default form of a weapon all having an entire R1, R2, Charged R2, backstep R1, forward R2, running R1, rolling/stepdodge R1, with an addition of running R2 and backstep R2, which was 2 more attack options than any single Souls weapon, and then you multiply those movesets by 2 with the transformed form, and adds another two with two-handed transformed weapon because L2 is now a different attack, and L1 is an attack followed by transforming the weapon..... is equal a mere 'taking any two Souls weapons, cutting half the moveset from each and then slapping them together an addition'????

This is blatantly untrue. Bloodborne, like any of its predecessors, can easily be played defensively. Stay out of enemy range, let them exhaust their canned combos and punish. This is arguably the easiest way to damage enemy limbs where applicable, since whiffed attacks usually leave breakable (for lack of a better descriptor) parts wide open.

Bah, exactly what NJClaw said. You dumbasses approached Bloodborne like you would Dark Souls, you get what you fucking deserve.

Bear in mind that rallying isn't applied equally across all weapons. Heavier or blunt weapons (say, hunter axe or tonitrus) make the most use of it, while others only have a meager gain. For 2/3 of the games weapons, you're typically better off taking the Souls approach, back off and pop a blood vial.

And the faster weapon compensate with speed. If you feel like it's still lacking, you can buff it with bloodgems.

The truth.

More like stupidity.

Besides attributes being cut down, equipment burden, poise and, as a corollary, poise damage, stability (remember, in DS it's a stat for weapons as well as shields), curable, but otherwise "permanent" debuffs, off-hand movesets and powerstancing were all removed. I like Miyazaki as much as anyone, but let's not pretend he isn't Japan's answer to Todd Howard.

Good Lord. I didn't even say anything about Miyazaki. I'm only merely stating the facts. You're just butthurt you can't larp in a Lovecraftian setting like you would some medieval fantasy.

Right, and this middle ground that Bloodborne occupies is exactly the problem. It's too streamlined compared to Souls, but too simplistic compared to Ninja Gaiden or DMC.

See, this is why people like you are so fucking insufferable. You just want Dark Souls, you just want Ninja Gaiden or DMC, yadda yadda. No wonder the industry somehow stagnates with fucking Souls-like, Diablo-clones, Skyrim killer etc etc, because when someone tries their own thing, they were criticized for not being X or Y.

Fucking decline enabler.

I don't care in the least what fits the setting. My favorite game of all time is Shadow Hearts, which takes place on the cusp of the first world war and yet features hitting people with books as a viable combat tactic.

Nobody cares your fav game of all time is Shadow Hearts.

DMC has had on the fly weapon swapping since 2003. Shit, CoD has on the fly weapon swapping.

Weapon swapping =/= trick weapons. And I didn't even have to bring up the fact that you can bring 2 trick weapons at the same time, meaning you can get to wield an arsenal of 20 different Souls weapon at any given time.

Try again.

No, no action game could ever compete with "play 2/3 of the level to find the shortcut back to the checkpoint". To date, I've never played a pure action game that's pulled off a narrative like Bloodborne and I'm eternally grateful for that.

Fromsoft's games ain't your cup of tea, man. Stop it, get some help.

Three times, unfortunately. It took me a long time to overcome my buyers remorse and accept the game's shortcomings.

Good for you.

"I don't think this game has enough variety."

"Oh yeah, well have you seen people spamming the same things over and over again? Bet you feel foolish."

So now that I show you it's possible to try different builds in Bloodborne.... it's spamming the same things over and over again?

Going by that logic, isn't that exactly the one thing you do in every Fromsoft's games? You know, rolling-rolling-rolling?

 

[Wunderbar]

Black Angel what is this with your obsession over trick weapons? Trick weapon is just a weapon that can change its moveset in a press of a button, it's not a "20 different souls weapons in your pocket". Not to mention that the game doesn't really push you to use all of your moves, you're still going to play the game roughly like Dark Souls, just faster and without a shield.

 

[Black Angel]

Black Angel what is this with your obsession over trick weapons? Trick weapon is just a weapon that can change its moveset in a press of a button, it's not a "20 different souls weapons in your pocket". Not to mention that the game doesn't really pushes you to use all of your moves, you're still going to play the game roughly like Dark Souls, just faster and without a shield.

It's not obsession, I'm merely presenting the facts. It's a fact that a single trick weapon at least holds a number of movesets you'll normally have by bringing at least 2 different weapon category in Souls. Kirkhammer, for example, is a Souls Straight Sword and a Souls Great Hammer with all the normal movesets all in one package. But more than that it also has the added backstep R2 and dash R2 for both form (both of these moves are nonexistent in Dark Souls 1, and also 2 iirc), and in case of two-handed transformed weapon like aforementioned Great Hammer the L1 and L2 also adds two more to the movesets.

Calling them 'just a weapon that can change its moveset in a press of a button' is disingenuous and underselling it. And it's a fact that if you bring 2 different trick weapons at once, say a Kirkhammer and a Blade of Mercy, it's equal to holding an arsenal of movesets equal to up to 20 different Souls weapons, based on the fact that in a Souls weapon category (say, Straight Sword) most if not all of them has exact same movesets with only one or two differences.

 

[Wunderbar]

I didn't play Bloodborne btw, i'm dissing it because it is a console exclusive.

 

[Silverfish]

I'm a good boy who dindu nuffin, so I'll refrain from using the butthurt tag.

How is an entire default form of a weapon all having an entire R1, R2, Charged R2, backstep R1, forward R2, running R1, rolling/stepdodge R1, with an addition of running R2 and backstep R2, which was 2 more attack options than any single Souls weapon, and then you multiply those movesets by 2 with the transformed form, and adds another two with two-handed transformed weapon because L2 is now a different attack, and L1 is an attack followed by transforming the weapon..... is equal a mere 'taking any two Souls weapons, cutting half the moveset from each and then slapping them together an addition'????

It's pretty simple. Take Ludwig's Holy Blade for instance. It is, for all intents and purposes, DS' longsword and claymore merged together. Except that in DS both of those weapons can be wielded in either one or two hands, with variations to the moveset as a result. Ludwig's 'longsword' can only be used in one hand, though and it's 'claymore' can only be used in two. Also, unlike its DS counterparts, Ludwigs can't be held in the off-hand or used to block. So the total move pool has been lowered with only transformation attacks and running R2's (which were, granted, a nice addition) making up the difference.

You dumbasses approached Bloodborne like you would Dark Souls, you get what you fucking deserve.

What did I get? A game I plowed through with greater ease than any other Souls game except maybe DS3?

More like stupidity.

You're just butthurt you can't larp in a Lovecraftian setting like you would some medieval fantasy.

A Lovecraft-influenced setting doesn't seem like it would preclude items having weight. Statues effects like egghead seem like pretty good fit, honestly.

See, this is why people like you are so fucking insufferable. You just want Dark Souls, you just want Ninja Gaiden or DMC, yadda yadda. No wonder the industry somehow stagnates with fucking Souls-like, Diablo-clones, Skyrim killer etc etc, because when someone tries their own thing, they were criticized for not being X or Y.

I don't criticize every game for not being like Dark Souls, only games that are clearly derived from it and subsequently drop the ball. By the same token, I wouldn't compare Bloodborne to NG or DMC at all if "Bloodborne isn't an rpg, it's more of an action game" wasn't an extremely common statement fans of the game use to excuse its lacking rpg elements compared to its big brothers.

Fucking decline enabler.

"If you criticize a game that cut loads of features from its predecessors, you're enabling decline." I guess I've been unfair to Fallout 4, then.

Nobody cares your fav game of all time is Shadow Hearts.

My mom thinks I'm cool.

Weapon swapping =/= trick weapons. And I didn't even have to bring up the fact that you can bring 2 trick weapons at the same time, meaning you can get to wield an arsenal of 20 different Souls weapon at any given time.

Try again.

In DMCV, Dante can swap between all of his weapon on the fly and even mid-combo. Oh, turns out trying again was actually pretty easy.

Fromsoft's games ain't your cup of tea, man. Stop it, get some help.

Funny thing though, is that overall I like From's games quite a bit. I just think BB is lacking. Even the oft-maligned Dark Souls 2 tramples all over it.

So now that I show you it's possible to try different builds in Bloodborne.... it's spamming the same things over and over again?

I'm sure that's not always the case, but those videos you posted involved spamming spells to knock people over or spamming guns. Not particularly interesting, but Inferno's was at least pretty funny.

Going by that logic, isn't that exactly the one thing you do in every Fromsoft's games? You know, rolling-rolling-rolling?

That would vary from person to person, I suppose. For my part, I try to vary my tactics based on the situation. You'd be surprised how many attacks in Souls can be "countered" by simply walking under their gun.

 

[NJClaw]

Trick weapon is just a weapon that can change its moveset in a press of a button

I was trying to draw a complete comparison between a standard DS3 longsword and the Blade of Mercy in BB, but I stopped mid-post because I would have rated it

myself. I haven't used all the weapons in BB, but for those that I tried I can say that the possibilities of their moveset grow quadratically with respect to DS, because:

- you simply have more attacks: you have R1, R2 (eventually charged), L1, L2, backstep R1 (and R2), rolling R1 (and R2), jumping R1 (and R2), and running R1 (and R2). In contrast, in DS3 you have R1, R2 (eventually charged), and jumping R1. Sometimes you also have different backstep and rolling attacks, but usually they are just taken from your standard R1/R2 combos.
- you can chain ALL those attacks. You can use pretty interesting combos of R1, L1, and L2 with almost any weapon. And those combos are different depending on if you start them in one-handed of two-handed mode. The fact that you can use L1 mid-combo to add a new attack AND switch to the other moveset adds new possibilities for many weapons.

Not to mention that the game doesn't really push you to use all of your moves, you're still going to play the game roughly like Dark Souls, just faster and without a shield.

I don't agree with that. Once you master a specific weapon, you're going to use and appreciate its entire moveset. At least I know that's what happened to me with Ludwig's Holy Blade, Kirkhammer, and Blade of Mercy. I don't use the R2 L2 R2 combo on the Blade of Mercy that often, but there are instances where those quick steps forward and backward are useful.

 

[Perkel]

You argue about moveset changes between BB and DS when this is not where those games are different. IT is the combat focus in which they are different. DS simply can't play like BB as defense is highly discouraged in BB moreover there is whole stagger mechanic that is central to this system no one seems to talk about as you are given second weapon to use all the time.

Sekiro went even further effectively making it more action game than RPG and whole game relies on counter mechanic.

 

[Perkel]

that's why they shouldn't have stripped their games from RPG elements.
Either make an action rpg with OK action and OK rpg part, or make a full action game with good action part. Don't give us watered down BS with simplified stats.

progression systems =/= rpg. Role playing is rpg. Which is why Sekiro was mostly action game.

 

[Sentinel]

didn't read a single thing Wunderbar said but he's probably right, BB and DS play the same way, the only difference is that BB doesn't let you be defensive and turtle bosses. But the actual combat plays the exact same - you abuse the iframes throughout bloodborne just like you abused iframes throughout DS.

 

[NJClaw]

I didn't play Bloodborne btw, i'm dissing it because it is a console exclusive.

didn't read a single thing Wunderbar said but he's probably right

A person who, without reading his posts, agrees with someone who hasn't played the game. This is some next level shit right here.

 

[Sentinel]

I didn't play Bloodborne btw, i'm dissing it because it is a console exclusive.

didn't read a single thing Wunderbar said but he's probably right

A person who, without reading his posts, agrees with someone who hasn't played the game. This is some next level shit right here.

well just proves he doesn't need to play a game to know how it plays. I've platinum'd BB, he's right, lol.

 

[Visperas]

I'm afraid we won't get the deflection mechanic from Sekiro in Elden Ring. That's a shame...

 

[toro]

But I can't, for the life of me, ever comprehend this sentiment at all. I do understand with DaS3, in fact I wholeheartedly agree with it. And also only slightly with Bloodborne since a fight can quickly devolve into the usual Souls dodgefest, but the rally mechanic, trick weapons (and an arsenal of movesets which completely dwarfs that of the entire Souls trilogy in quality and versatility), and the complete lack of proper shields and tank build archetype (which significantly changes the overall dynamic of moment-to-moment combat gameplay, emphasizing offense and speed), greatly distinguish Bloodborne from Dark Souls.

I agree. All the changes you mentioned do distinguish Bloodborne from Dark Souls ... in a negative way.

And Sekiro? 'rehashes'???? Which now have a proper mechanic for stealth and jumping (complete with its own assigned button), instead of the convoluted, roundabout way of doing it like in Soulsborne (tilt the analogue button softly (hold the walk button on PC) to 'sneak' while behind an enemy. And hold the sprint button then immediately press it again to 'jump'). Not only that, the levels and the enemy placement are also designed around these newly implemented mechanics. Suffice to say Fromsoft didn't waste them at all, even though there isn't enough amount of content nor exciting loot and secrets to experience them all. The combat dynamic was also greatly changes to emphasize parrying, and to prevent repetitive flow they've also added Perilous movesets from the enemy and ways to counter them.
Am I the only one who cares enough about these things to see that Sekiro is anything but a rehash of Souls formula at all, let alone claiming how it's 'Dark Souls with anime'?????

The same thing as for Bloodborne.

Bloodborne's combat is all about relentless aggression. Sekiro's combat is all about parries. Both games are designed to be played in a specific way. You cannot play Bloodborne/Sekiro as Dark Souls and enjoy them.

Both combat systems are downgrades when compared to DaS/DaS2 because neither one of them have introduced innovations which can possibly compensate for the missing mechanics.

Both games are actually great in their own way but they did not improve the original formula. They are limited rehashes of the original Souls formula.

Sorry for this but this is the way I see them. Maybe I'm wrong but as you said, I don't feel strong about this and it doesn't really matters.

 

[The_Mask]

You cannot play Bloodborne/Sekiro as Dark Souls and enjoy them.

Oh... I'm so gonna get roasted for this, but here I go...

... but you *can* play Dark Souls as Bloodborne/Sekiro.

Toodles!

 

[Sentinel]

You cannot play Bloodborne/Sekiro as Dark Souls and enjoy them.

Oh... I'm so gonna get roasted for this, but here I go...

... but you *can* play Dark Souls as Bloodborne/Sekiro.

Toodles!

you can't even parry 90% of bosses in dark souls my man

 

[The_Mask]

you can't even parry 90% of bosses in dark souls my man

The game's not all about the bosses, but you may have a point.


*huff*

 

[Ataraxia]

Guys, Fromsoft actually did create an open world rpg a long time ago.

It's called King's Field III.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I feel not enough people played King's Field. KF 4 was an awesome game and it has aged better than its predecessors, everyone should play it.

Re: Elden Ring, the leaked footage seems like a very early build, can't really comment too much on it. I'm not a fan of open world games in general, though, and I don't think From can pull it off especially well. One of the strengths of their best games is level design and level design in open world games is often an afterthought.

I hope the combat system goes further than Dark Souls' default turtle/block/roll stuff (yes, I know you can play Souls in a variety of ways, but turtle/block/roll is the easiest and what most people play as at least on their first run). My favourite recent From games are Bloodborne and Sekiro (the only Souls game I didn't finish was 3, tried multiple times but I just couldn't be arsed).

 

[Black Angel]

I agree. All the changes you mentioned do distinguish Bloodborne from Dark Souls ... in a negative way.

Negative for people who wants to bruteforce through Bloodborne like it's Dark Souls, yes.

You cannot play Bloodborne/Sekiro as Dark Souls and enjoy them.

'Enjoyment' is subjective. But to judge Bloodborne/Sekiro on the basis of Dark Souls, when Bloodborne was designed to be Bloodborne and Sekiro to be Sekiro, is just disingenuous.

Both combat systems are downgrades when compared to DaS/DaS2 because neither one of them have introduced innovations which can possibly compensate for the missing mechanics.

This statement is so strange I can't even think of where to begin. So you're praising DaS2 for being designed to be a literal sequel to DaS1, and thus concludes Bloodborne and Sekiro to be a downgrade of DaS1 even though they aren't designed to be its sequel? What?

Both games are actually great in their own way but they did not improve the original formula. They are limited rehashes of the original Souls formula.

And there we go. They're trying something new and completely different to the usual Souls formula. I can get your complains if either Bloodborne or Sekiro was branded with 'Souls' in their names, but unfortunately for you they weren't. Bloodborne was designed to be its own thing, even if it means they're stripping something from what's perceived as the original, 'Souls' formula, but in its place they've added something new and nonexistent in that original formula, or at least make a minor feature to be more prominent or even common.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

It's called King's Field III.

 

[toro]

... snip ...

DaS2 was unfinished but a step in the right direction (Majula, new animations, weapons variety, Bonfire Ascetics, Power Stance, PvP gameplay, non-retarded NG+). Soul Memory was crap but the game genuinely tried to expand on the original formula.

On the other hand BB and Sekiro were born from stripping down Dark Souls original formula while some flashy shit (martial arts, prosthetics) was added to cover for the missing features.

They are good games but they tend to incline towards twitch gameplay while on the other hand I'm interested in a slower and methodical approach like in DaS or DaS2.

To be blunt: I don't care about BB or Sekiro despite the fact that I've put many hours in both of them. I want FromSw to go back to the original formula and try to expand on that or at least recreate it. That's it.

By the way when someone starts quoting each phrase from a post then it means that that person is more interested in earning internet points than a honest discussion. We can agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I don't really get the argument that you can't play Sekiro or Bloodborne 'methodically' (I take it that you mean evading->countering). I think you absolutely can. Interrupting is part of Bloodborne's strategy and makes the game more interesting in my opinion, but you can certainly clear the whole thing without interrupting a single attack if you wish.

Sekiro is a little less flexible but I think it's fine to design an entire game around a specific mechanic (parrying in this case), but that doesn't mean the game isn't methoical. You certainly can't mash your way through it. In fact, I think Sekiro is the hardest of all From Software games, at least it was for me.

 

[Child of Malkav]

I don't really get the argument that you can't play Sekiro or Bloodborne 'methodically' (I take it that you mean evading->countering). I think you absolutely can. Interrupting is part of Bloodborne's strategy and makes the game more interesting in my opinion, but you can certainly clear the whole thing without interrupting a single attack if you wish.

Sekiro is a little less flexible but I think it's fine to design an entire game around a specific mechanic (parrying in this case), but that doesn't mean the game isn't methoical. You certainly can't mash your way through it. In fact, I think Sekiro is the hardest of all From Software games, at least it was for me.

It is the hardest. In previous titles you either block or dodge, dodge being the better option 95% of the time. In Sekiro, you have to deflect normal attacks, deflect or Mikiri thrust attacks and dodge grabs attacks. 3 different responses to different attack types. Most bosses include attacks from all categories. You also can't summon your way to victory, you don't have magic, you don't have shields, you can't equip the Havel armor to simply ignore damage, no. You see a wall and you bang your head against it until it drops or you drop. That's getting good. You literally can't beat this game in any other way, except "gitting gud". Also remember all the articles and videos from journos begging for an easy mode or how From needs to respect its players by adding various difficulties or making the game easier in the name of accessibility.
And one final note: the default game that you play, IS the easy mode. In NG+, if you give back the charm to Kuro, you take damage if you block but not if you deflect. That's the hard mode. You have to deflect not block, otherwise you take chip damage, so you have to be on point. So the first or subsequent playthroughs are actually on easy mode. And besides, there also the umbrella that can make life easier. Plus the firecrackers.

Edit: typo.