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From Software Elden Ring - From Software's new game with writing by GRRM

Elwro

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But (there's a big BUT), at the same character level, you could get even bigger numbers with the Sacred infusion by dumping all those points in Faith instead of Dex: with 55 Dex and 9 Faith, a +13 Keen Uchigatana has 350 AR; with 15 Dex and 49 Faith, a +13 Holy Uchigatana has 412 AR. Even better, a +13 Lightning Uchigatana, with 55 Dex and 9 Faith, has 433 AR.

You can use this to toy around and find out breakeven points.
Interesting. Thanks! I don't think I can make my Uchi Lightning yet, perhaps I missed some stuff due to playing mostly blindly. But your point about respecing into Faith is well taken, I've been meaning to try those incantations...
 

NJClaw

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Interesting. Thanks! I don't think I can make my Uchi Lightning yet, perhaps I missed some stuff due to playing mostly blindly. But your point about respecing into Faith is well taken, I've been meaning to try those incantations...
Considering you have a +13 weapon, it makes sense you still don't have access to lightning ashes of war, but you should find them (or the whetblade) soon enough.

One big downside of sacred weapons is that endgame bosses have outrageous amounts of Holy defenses, but this should be a non-issue since you can change the affinity whenever you want.
 

Lyric Suite

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Guys, please explain sth to me. I wanted to play quality, but quickly changed to Dex. I leveled the Uchi because I just like it. Now, I'm still kinda low level, I guess, and my Dex is 37. What I don't understand is why, after all that investment, if I make my Uchi (+13) Keen, it actually gives me *less* damage than if I use the Sacred Vow Ash of War and remove almost all scaling. At this particular point in my char's development, this kinda defeats the point of having leveled damage-enhancing stats. Does this change 'later'? Is, say, Keen 'worth it' once my Dex is over 45? 50?
Split-damage infusions will almost always give higher Attack Power totals. Split infusions have lower scaling, but they also add a big chunk of base damage.

A +13 Keen Uchigatana has 184 base damage and B Dex scaling. A +13 Sacred Uchigatana has 151 base physical damage, 151 base holy damage, E Dex scaling, and C Faith scaling. The scaling you get from a high Dex isn't enough to offset the higher base damage of the Holy infusion. You will probably break even around 55 Dex, and from there the Keen infusion will give higher numbers.

But (there's a big BUT), at the same character level, you could get even bigger numbers with the Sacred infusion by dumping all those points into Faith instead of Dex: with 55 Dex and 9 Faith, a +13 Keen Uchigatana has 350 AR; with 15 Dex and 49 Faith, a +13 Holy Uchigatana has 412 AR. Even better, a +13 Lightning Uchigatana, with 55 Dex and 9 Faith, has 433 AR.

You can use this to toy around and find out breakeven points.

But are split damage weapons as bad as they were in DS1 in this game? Even with my heavy Arcane investement i found some bosses (like the Fallingstar Beast) where the Flame Art Ash of War (i have 30 FTH and 50 ARC btw) did more damage and i'm not sure if it was just fire weak enemies or whether pure physical damage is just weaker than it should be in this game compared to past Souls games.

Maybe its just an impression but it seems pure physical builds just seem kinda gimped here.
 
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NJClaw

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But are split damage weapons as bad as they were in DS1 in this game?
Generally, no. Enemies' defenses are supposed to work as percentage reductions of your base damage and usually, unless an enemy is thematically very resistant or weak to a damage type, those percentage are in the 20-30 range (for bosses, you can check the wiki to learn these values). When an enemy is weak against a damage type, its resistance can go from -10 to 10. When an enemy is strong against a damage type, it can go from 40 to 80.

whether pure physical damage is just weaker than it should be in this game compared to past Souls games.
Resistances to different damage types are well distributed among bosses. Many enemies are weak to physical damage, but sometimes they have an even lower value for an "elemental" damage type. The only element that gets fucked is Holy, with Maliketh, Malenia, Radagon, Elden Beast, and Hoarah Loux having respectively 80%, 40%, 80%, 80%, and 40%.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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So i got summoned by LGBTQ+ Jesus, who kept casting Blessing and Golden Vow every time they expired. Lmao, le wat
 

Dhaze

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But are split damage weapons as bad as they were in DS1 in this game? Even with my heavy Arcane investement i found some bosses (like the Fallingstar Beast) where the Flame Art Ash of War (i have 30 FTH and 50 ARC btw) did more damage and i'm not sure if it was just fire weak enemies or whether pure physical damage is just weaker than it should be in this game compared to past Souls games.

Fire in Elden Ring is pretty damn good, honestly. Enemies don't seem to resist it all that well, aside from dragons, magma wyrms, man-serpents, the fire giant, and Rykard.

As far as the fire Ashes Of War go, Flaming Strike hits wide, staggers reliably, can output good damage, and its active frames last a while (making it an excellent tool to use on enemies' wakeup). Meanhwile, Flame Of The Redmanes is absolutely bonkers for the poise damage it inflicts—I would be surprised if it doesn't end up being nerfed to the ground and below still.

For example, with my dual-wielded Bandit's Curved Swords, against the annoying Banished Knights in Castle Sol and Crumbling Farum Azula, I could go Flames Of The Redmanes > Flames Of The Redmanes (enemy's stance is broken) > Critical Attack > Flaming Strike (two hits) on wakeup > j. R2 > L1 (enemy dies). As long as you time the first Flames Of The Redmanes so that it catches the enemy not while they benefit from some hyper-armor during one of their moves, and provided you don't mistime the rest, they won't have a single opportunity to attack.

Maybe its just an impression but it seems pure physical builds just seem kinda gimped here.

I get the very distinct impression that FromSoft nudges the players hard towards having more than a bit of intelligence or faith mixed into their build. Just look at the sheer number of weapons with an innate int. or faith scaling
 

Caim

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As a side note, I always wonder what happens when somebody who fell deep into the lore of these games eventually stumbles upon the bottomless abyss of fan theories that spreads ever around and underneath Marathon, Durandal, and Infinity. And if Bungie, one day, resuscitates the trilogy via remake or remaster, I wouldn't be surprised if its way of storytelling is mistaken for aping that of the Souls games.
I wouldn't be suprised if the majority of Vaati's viewer view his videos as a sort of "tell me a story with your relaxing voice", nothing more. But I once discovered that the wiki page for some random Assassin's Creed character was over 15 000 words, so even Souls fan aren't actually that bad in terms of deep lore and nothing surprises me anymore.
Yeah but Assassin's Creed cheats because most of the cast in those games are historical figures, so Ubisoft pilfers their lore from real life.
 

unseeingeye

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Strap Yourselves In
Yeah, I guess that's possible. Though I'll forever remain dumbfounded as to why people put any credit into the so-called 'stories' and lore concocted by Miyazaki. It's just so lazy, as far as storytelling goes.

For me, this approach to worldbuilding and narrative is somewhat reminiscent of the philosophy Gygax tried to take, where enough information is provided to players for them to be able to infer meaning individually but within a shared basic experience, confined by certain rules but without explicitly defining every detail. Whether or not that is lazy I couldn't say, I don't know enough about the man or the team to form an opinion but given the interconnected complexity of those details to be found in the many particulars supplementary to the broader mythopoeia and considering that they aren't riddled with unintentional contradictions (at least to my knowledge), I would guess probably not. At least not so when it comes to the artists and writers and programmers who drafted and created the virtual world across which that sort of exposition-deprived narrative unfolds. It isn't the densest lore or the most interesting but I find it plenty interesting enough to explore as I replay the game. The present-tense story we engage with is almost entirely secondary to the work that went into the environmental details, for me. I'm only slightly interested in the fates of the demigods, empyreans and my own character, because for me the enjoyment comes from learning about the past of the Lands Between, just as history is my real-life focus. Details like the visual clashing of different styles of architecture, or of sculpture, of witnessing the current occupants of ruins built by long gone civilizations and how they repurposed them, or noticing subtler differences as the shorn horns of the above-ground Omens where those dwelling beneath the ground have them intact, are interesting to notice.

Whatever theories that other players come up with I don't consume much of, attention to details I somehow overlooked aside (like the aforementioned second face of Ranni as I described in my last post). Rather our own unique experience with the game and interpretations of the details to be discovered throughout it is what ought to matter most to each player, for which the intentional ambiguities so clearly signal. Major elements of the storied lore are remarkably derivative, relative to the other qualities of the game, but even where it is unoriginal it remains vague enough to allow the player to make connections to be drawn from their personal knowledge and perspective. These aspects are archetypal but like confusing dream imagery are simultaneously familiar and alien, like the prehistoric/Germanic/Oriental &c associations of the Erd Tree and the older tree it replaced, or the astrological occult principles of the talismans and the broader association of sympathetic magic. I've seen videos suggested for me on YouTube come up like "Elden Ring is an alchemical allegory" and the like, which most certainly read far too much into the symbols and subjects the content creator is aware of leading them to derive singular conclusions of definite attribution that are very likely unsound. But the enjoyment I get from exploring the subtler details in the game isn't sullied by accounts from people whose knowledge of the arcane and obscure topics they posit and purport to expound on is entirely taken from Wikipedia or introductory e-books.
 

Bloodeyes

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So I've heard it said many times that there's a negligible advantage to being light and to just go medium. I've been playing light through most of the early game and here are my thoughts on that:

Firstly, of course there is an advantage to wearing armour and having big armaments. There should be, as there's a heavy stat investment that needs to be made to get these things. If just going light were equal to putting 30 into END and wearing full plate, or giving up a talisman slot and doing the same then that would be unfair to anyone who wanted heavy gear. Being light is free.

Secondly, there is a noticeable difference to being light and it has been providing me with tangible benefits throughout the early game. Here's a concrete example: I use the tower shield knight in the ruins near the gate to test out new weapons and skills in the early game. I find him tough to beat at low level so he's a good test. I can't get past his shield reliably without getting punished, so I often end up just attacking and accepting a hit in order to hit him. Not ideal. But when I'm light I can use the stab from square off and hit his shield which causes him to guard counter, then I'm fast enough to dodge roll back from the guard counter. While medium the guard counter hits me, no matter how many times I try, because my dodge roll is shorter than his spear I guess. So I'm able to keep doing this, and inevitably he eventually starts to attack while I do this and drops his shield so I hit him for big damage. It trivializes him, and it's impossible to do without being light.

Another enemy I find kind of tough normally is the giant bears. I've been dodge rolling circles around them, hopping behind and under them to square off into their belly or ass. I can beat them reliably, something I couldn't even do easily at high level before.

I'm sure there's lots of other things like that that I'm not able to notice exactly but I feel the difference and it isn't slight. Being light is great... until you run into enemies that do bleed. Then you feel like the word's stupidest asshole for going around in just a robe and sandals in such a hostile world. Of course getting hit is a bigger deal than before. Like a 30-45% bigger deal. But that's fair enough. As I said, being light shouldn't be equal to wearing armour as it's free to be light.

Does this mean being light is worth it? For me it is. Absolutely. It's very, very fun and surprisingly effective. The differences aren't easy to quantify though and must be experienced.
 
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Child of Malkav

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This is funny, from 4chan:

The whole tarnished thing is hilarious if you think about it
>be some random dude, live your life, die
>wake up in Zimbabwe
>a tribal shaman comes out of the woods, calls you bitchless and tells you to become president
>what?
>walk around a bit, a woman shows up while you're cooking canned beans over a campfire
>"here's your keys, the car is parked right there, go become president"
>what?
>the shaman shows up again and tells you to single handedly invade a fortified camp owned by a crazed warlord
>ok
>drive there with your beat-up Accord
>get relentlessly beat up by a giant nigga with a stick and a golden AK before you can even enter the warlord's camp
No wonder tarnished like Boggart didn't give a shit about becoming Elden Lord and decided to cook crab instead
 

Lyric Suite

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So i got connection error right after delivering the killing blow to Morgott. I didn't get the Rune Arc but i got 90000 runes instead of 30000. Nice jank you got there From.
 

Dhaze

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Solid response, Unseeingeye. Kudos. I'll try and provide another viewpoint.

Whether or not that is lazy I couldn't say, I don't know enough about the man or the team to form an opinion but given the interconnected complexity of those details to be found in the many particulars supplementary to the broader mythopoeia and considering that they aren't riddled with unintentional contradictions (at least to my knowledge), I would guess probably not.

I'll fully admit the reasons I call that approach to storytelling lazy remains somewhat hazy and unformed in my mind, not fully graspable; I've never actually tried to come to a definite conclusion as to why I consider it such. And, sadly, it is intrinsically linked to the fact I can not engage with the story in any meaningful manner.

Mostly I think it comes from a definite inconsistency in how carefully the worlds of those games are crafted. I'll try to proffer a couple of examples.

The first would be in my post you quote, that of the ember-holding statues can be found in Dark Souls 1. They are identical in every single detail to Andre the blacksmith—so surely, if the world is well thought out, is possessed of interconnected complexity, well then the likeness of these statues must mean something. But no, they do not; they are placeholders that were never replaced.

I think it's fair to call that lazy.

A second one would be in Dark Souls 3. When I first made my way into the highest parts of Lothric Castle, while I fought the Dragonslayer Armor, I could see lining the balustrade small statues of a weird aspect and mien. Upon closer inspection after the fight, I immediately recognised they represented primordial serpents, such as Frampt and Kaathe from DS1, but with a sort of cape, and little feathery wings jutting from their shoulders. And reading the descriptions of various items I collected along my adventure, and scrutinizing the environment, I had learned of supposed angels, and in the room were takes place the fight against Lothric and Lorian the floor was verily carpeted with white feathers.
So, what is the story? Have the primordial serpents somehow conned men and lords into thinking of them as angels? To what end? What does it all mean? Well, it means nothing. We now know, from interviews, that at one point during development it had been decided a primordial serpent would surge from under the floor or come crashing through the windows while fighting Lothric and Lorian. Then, for unknown reasons the plans were changed, the idea was dropped—but the work done so far (the statues and feathers and talks of angels) was left there, as is.

Again, I think it's fair to call that lazy. It puts me in mind of a bad wannabe-writer of fantasy who has no plan whatsoever while writing his novel, is just jumping from one idea to the next, sometimes connecting one with another, but eventually abandons most ideas to the benefit of new ones. And when he's finished writing his novel, he doesn't bother with a second draft; he his content to leave all the threads unlinked and unfinished, no matter they are now deprived of sense.

You mention the details in these games "aren't riddled with unintentional contradictions." But how could they? Too often said details, which are the shadows of concepts of uncogent ideas, mean nothing—and how could nothing contradict nothing?

We can see that by perusing through the various fan theories anent various aspects of the games' stories. Starting with the same tidbits of informations, regularly people can, convincingly, come to opposite conclusion as to what it all might mean (which is entirely by design on the producers' part, if I'm not mistaken). And if conclusion A is equally plausible as conclusion B, but A and B stand opposite one another, then it can mean everything; and if something can mean everything, I'd argue that it truly means nothing.

The present-tense story we engage with is almost entirely secondary to the work that went into the environmental details, for me. I'm only slightly interested in the fates of the demigods, empyreans and my own character, because for me the enjoyment comes from learning about the past of the Lands Between, just as history is my real-life focus.

Ah, see, now that's interesting! With that I can understand and come to appreciate why—or more precisely how—someone can enjoy that manner of storytelling.

Because I have a diametrically opposed approach to playing such games: I want to engage with the story. I do not want to merely spectate (for that, I have rows upon rows upon rows of books). I want to ask questions and participate, as I think would befit a video game which by definition is an interactive experience.

I have what I think is a couple of solid examples of that.

First, the happenings surrounding Sellen in Elden Ring. How properly infuriating! the way FromSoft's storytelling combines with the lack of possible interaction on the player's part. I see Sellen under the Waypoint Ruins, and I can talk with her (or rather: she can talk at me); but also I found another Sellen evidently kept prisoner under the Witchbane Ruins; and finally I have found yet another, third Sellen behind two illusory walls near Ranni's Tower. I can see all that, but I can't do anything about it, and in fact I can't so much as ask her or anyone about it.

Second, Ranni's and her cohort's search for Nokron. I had explored the Siofra River before hearing of Nokron. Then I was tasked with finding the eternal city. And at one point, via one of the Four Belfries, I actually went to a very small part of Nokron, where I fought a Crucible Knight I had earlier seen in the distance but could not reach. After this I couldn't wait to go back to Ranni, Blaidd, Iji, or Seluvis, to share information. But I can't. Again, I can see it all—but I might as well not even exist, so inexistent is my involvement in this world.

For a series of games often praised for their supposedly brilliant version of 'show, don't tell,' I sure am told a whole lot of things, but I, in turn, can't tell nor show anyone a single thing. People rave about the way these games draw them in with their wonderful, immersive worlds; yet here I am, perhaps more conscious than ever before that these are games, and I'm here, sitting in my chair, controller in hand, wishing but wholly unable to be a part of these worlds.
 

Lyric Suite

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So I've heard it said many times that there's a negligible advantage to being light and to just go medium. I've been playing light through most of the early game and here are my thoughts on that:

Firstly, of course there is an advantage to wearing armour and having big armaments. There should be, as there's a heavy stat investment that needs to be made to get these things. If just going light were equal to putting 30 into END and wearing full plate, or giving up a talisman slot and doing the same then that would be unfair to anyone who wanted heavy gear. Being light is free.

Secondly, there is a noticeable difference to being light and it has been providing me with tangible benefits throughout the early game. Here's a concrete example: I use the tower shield knight in the ruins near the gate to test out new weapons and skills in the early game. I find him tough to beat at low level so he's a good test. I can't get past his shield reliably without getting punished, so I often end up just attacking and accepting a hit in order to hit him. Not ideal. But when I'm light I can use the stab from square off and hit his shield which causes him to guard counter, then I'm fast enough to dodge roll back from the guard counter. While medium the guard counter hits me, no matter how many times I try, because my dodge roll is shorter than his spear I guess. So I'm able to keep doing this, and inevitably he eventually starts to attack while I do this and drops his shield so I hit him for big damage. It trivializes him, and it's impossible to do without being light.

Another enemy I find kind of tough normally is the giant bears. I've been dodge rolling circles around them, hopping behind and under them to square off into their belly or ass. I can beat them reliably, something I couldn't even do easily at high level before.

I'm sure there's lots of other things like that that I'm not able to notice exactly but I feel the difference and it isn't slight. Being light is great... until you run into enemies that do bleed. Then you feel like the word's stupidest asshole for going around in just a robe and sandals in such a hostile world. Of course getting hit is a bigger deal than before. Like a 30-45% bigger deal. But that's fair enough. As I said, being light shouldn't be equal to wearing armour as it's free to be light.

Does this mean being light is worth it? For me it is. Absolutely. It's very, very fun and surprisingly effective. The differences aren't easy to quantify though and must be experienced.

Don't forget you don't get any penalty for not wearing any armor unlike DS3 which means you can get the most out of the Blue Dancer Talisman and have the satisfaction of beating demigods to a pulp while going around in your undies for maximum humiliation.
 

mediocrepoet

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For a series of games often praised for their supposedly brilliant version of 'show, don't tell,' I sure am told a whole lot of things, but I, in turn, can't tell nor show anyone a single thing. People rave about the way these games draw them in with their wonderful, immersive worlds; yet here I am, perhaps more conscious than ever before that these are games, and I'm here, sitting in my chair, controller in hand, wishing but wholly unable to be a part of these worlds.

In general, I'm on board with your takes on this stuff. There's a general story that the devs have in mind for these games, but first and foremost, they are games and treated as such. The particulars can be muddied by translation decisions and errors, inconsistencies due to cuts and revisions, etc. and as such aren't worth getting too hung up on.

I do think though, that stitching this stuff together into an interpretation of particulars, including with historical biases, possible lies, etc. a la Morrowind is kind of a fun exercise in itself. I don't spend any energy on this, but occasionally will read or listen to someone's lore ass pull and if it's well done, appreciate it. But I don't think there's any real major "canon" to these games outside of the overall broad strokes that can generally be seen in the obvious presentation of the settings. e.g. looking down at the swirling chaos of destruction as all realities are being flushed down the toilet at the beginning of the Ringed City DLC for Dark Souls 3. That in particular makes it hard for me to take people asking "omg DS4 when?" seriously.

Anyway, just looking at it as flavour and part of the fun, but not worth thinking overly hard about generally sums up 99.999% of video game stories/writing/lore in my mind. Occasionally there's something that's worth a bit of deeper thought, but that's usually relegated to some subplot or section of a game rather than a game's narrative as a whole.
 

Dhaze

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I think we have similar ideas on the subject, if not downright identical. I just get a bit miffed not with what these games are, but what some of the fans make them out to be.

Besides, I shouldn't be the one to talk, really; if ever Jason Jones and Robert McLees decide to develop a fourth entry to the Myth series, I'll jump down that well of lore/story head first, and start proselytizing hard.

/e: on topic, I've started a third playthrough. In a little more than two hours, I have the Carian Knight sword; Carian Knight set; Carian Knight shield; Cuckoo Greatshield; Troll Knight Sword; Carian Glintstone staff; all the sword/phalanx sorceries save for Adula's Moonblade; Loretta's Greatbow; Raya Lucaria Soldiers ash; Twinsage Sorcerer ash; and Battlemage Hugues ash.

I quite like that setup. Of note, the Carian Grandeur ash of war is a bit busted, and Battlemage Hugues can be a veritable pancake machine when he gets to it.
 
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NJClaw

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/e: on topic, I've started a third playthrough. In a little more than two hours, I have the Carian Knight sword; Carian Knight set; Carian Knight shield; Cuckoo Greatshield; Troll Knight Sword; Carian Glintstone staff; all the sword/phalanx sorceries save for Adula's Moonblade; Loretta's Greatbow; Raya Lucaria Soldiers ash; Twinsage Sorcerer ash; and Battlemage Hugues ash.
It's insane how fast you can shape a build once you know where everything is. It's one of the strongest points of the game, IMHO.

I quite like that setup. Of note, the Carian Grandeur ash of war is a bit busted, and Battlemage Hugues can be a veritable pancake machine when he gets to it.
One of my favorites. The powering-up in stages feels great.
 

NJClaw

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Pff, second phase, where art thou?


That critical hit + bleed while he was trying to change phase is :chef's kiss:

Did you count the poise damage to get the critical hit just before the phase transition or was it luck?

I recently fought him in my SL1 run, so I'll leave it here:



Not as clean as it could have been, but I didn't feel like getting killed to try a second time.
 

Lyric Suite

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No i counted it, knew it was coming that's why i took his crap to my face. Wasn't planning to break his second phase though. Had no idea you could even do that, was just trying to get the critical hit.
 
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Lyric Suite

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BTW, that was SL82 (i reversed my save as i didn't like where i was going, so i'm back with the Radagon crap but i was able to ditch the Silver Tear Mask so i could change outfit as the silver color didn't match lmao fashion) and weapon still at +15.

This guy seems to be balanced for lower levels, possibly in case people just rushed through the game ignoring all the side content.

Consider i was just in practice mode there (which i record anyway since you never know, heh), that's why i wasn't using a Rune Arc which would have made him even easier. But once i saw that bleed + critical hit combo i just had to kill him so i could post the video here lol.
 
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Lyric Suite

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Pff, second phase, where art thou?


That critical hit + bleed while he was trying to change phase is :chef's kiss:

Did you count the poise damage to get the critical hit just before the phase transition or was it luck?

I recently fought him in my SL1 run, so I'll leave it here:



Not as clean as it could have been, but I didn't feel like getting killed to try a second time.


What program do you use? Because your audio is really low.

I'm using OBS studio which is pretty good. Just has a problem when i hit record sometimes it doesn't do anything, and i have to close the program through the task manager and start it again. Other than that so far works well. Way better than the Microsoft build in program.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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But then why is there a race of people despised by everyone and forced to travel around the world because nobody likes them? And why do they have a unique religion that no one else follows? And why did they suffer a genocide where they literally got locked all together in small chambers and turned to dust?
From clothing description:

"These merchants once thrived as the Great Caravan, but after being accused of heretical beliefs, their entire clan was rounded up and buried alive far underground.

Then, they chanted a curse of despair, and summoned the flame of frenzy."

They had prospered within the Golden Order until being accused of heresy and annihilated (except for the few wandering survivors you meet), possibly inspired by the Knights Templar and its ultimate demise. :M
 

NJClaw

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
What program do you use? Because your audio is really low.

I'm using OBS studio which is pretty good. Just has a problem when i hit record sometimes it doesn't do anything, and i have to close the program through the task manager and start it again. Other than that so far works well. Way better than the Microsoft build in program.
I use OBS, but keep the audio somewhat low because it helps me concentrate. I'm very autistic about sounds and if they're too loud I can't think about anything else.
 

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