Elite: Dangerous

[Blaine]

I'm thirty years old, I'm well aware of Orbiter (I'd been referring to simulations of its ilk long before you started squealing), and I don't need to attempt to make you look stupid by asking condescending questions. You do a fine job of that without any assistance.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the end of our "discussion." It's gone on ad absurdum, and if I weren't a masochist I would have dismissed you and your nonsense the moment you started banging out drivel. Besides, we're both getting what we want: You get to criticize Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous for not meeting your highly sophisticated and lofty connoisseur's standards (heh), and I get to actually play and enjoy them. I suspect you'll play them too, but in the meantime, this is too good an excuse to try to prove to the Codex that you're a discerning .

 

[potatojohn]

I never said I wouldn't play them or that they were bad games. My argument has been solely that games where space isn't presented properly can't be considered space simulations.

Saying that Freespace is a space sim because it has a space skybox is like saying that Soldier of Fortune is an anatomy simulator because you can blow people's heads away, or Arcanum is a blip simulator because you can see one in the intro.

It's dumb, and you know it, and that's why you've running.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Some of the retards in this thread sound like they never played original Elite(back then not like,"i'll go check that old game out so i can spout my bullshit opinion on forums")

 

[Spectacle]

In fact I daresay computer Monopoly is a more accurate and thorough simulation of Monopoly than most computer flight simulators are of flying an actual airplane.

A computer implementation of Monopoly isn't a simulation of Monopoly, it's the game itself in a different format. Whether on a board or a computer, the game Monopoly is a very simplistic simulation of the real-estate market.

 

[MisterStone]

If someone would just make a good 3d Space Trader/dogfighting game and release it, I don't give a fuck if it's by the Elite dev or not. Or for that matter, what kind of bullshit spaceship movement it features.

 

[DraQ]

the Elite/Frontier franchise

Conflating Elite games together is a pretty big error.

Original Elite was pretty much as simple arcade "sim" as it gets, it only got applause and recognition because it was the first actual sandbox space combat and trading game in times where hi-score tables and lives were the norm and it blew everyone away.

Frontiers, OTOH, were also very simple, but they unflinchingly adhered to Newtonian mechanics, at least in terms of translational movement and single dominant gravity source, as much as technology (clever hacks to compensate for usual lack of actual FPU in PCs at the time) allowed them to.

I-Wars I would rate a bit lower, because although stronger in terms of detail and complexity, they failed to account for stuff like gravity or relative movement, and failed to actually accommodate Newtonian mechanics into their core gameplay or even AI.

The reason they do arcade instead of simulation is because arcade's supposed to be more fun to play, but it hasn't really worked out for space games.

It worked quite well in the original Elite, and it was certainly more fun than the combat in Frontier. While the cool kids were out burning rubber, I burnt up the rubber keys on my Speccy playing Elite.

The horribly cumbersome pitch&roll system was only fun if you were the kind of person who made Star Wars noises with their mouth while playing, same with arbitrarily constrained speed.

 

[tindrli]

i only played I-wars II and back then i loved the damn thing.. now what worrys me is that developers of fuckin elite are aiming for online connection.. very sad..after more than 20 years of silence they come back and they com back GREEDY

 

[Blaine]

A computer implementation of Monopoly isn't a simulation of Monopoly, it's the game itself in a different format. Whether on a board or a computer, the game Monopoly is a very simplistic simulation of the real-estate market.

What detestable semantics some of you resort to. It's entirely feasible for a simulation that's accomplished using one system (cardboard, ink, metal, and plastic) to itself be simulated by a different system (electronics and computing). A simulation of a simulation is still a simulation. Even if that weren't the case (it is), a computer simulation of Monopoly would nevertheless be, as you indicate, a very simple and abstracted economic simulation—which is the point I'd been vainly trying to hammer into the thick skulls of potatojohn et alia vis-à-vis space simulation games. A simulation need not be as true-to-life as humanly possible in order to be called a simulation.

Conflating Elite games together is a pretty big error.

Original Elite was pretty much as simple arcade "sim" as it gets, it only got applause and recognition because it was the first actual sandbox space combat and trading game in times where hi-score tables and lives were the norm and it blew everyone away.

People who've played those games already know this, and those who haven't played them don't know the difference. I'm not going to waste my time writing an annotated dissertation of each individual game for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar.

 

[Spectacle]

You're well on they way to making the term simulation entirely meaningless Blaine, stop and think for a while.

 

[DraQ]

Conflating Elite games together is a pretty big error.

Original Elite was pretty much as simple arcade "sim" as it gets, it only got applause and recognition because it was the first actual sandbox space combat and trading game in times where hi-score tables and lives were the norm and it blew everyone away.

People who've played those games already know this, and those who haven't played them don't know the difference. I'm not going to waste my time writing an annotated dissertation of each individual game for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar.

I'll remember that when writing about Fallout series.

 

[Blaine]

You're well on they way to making the term simulation entirely meaningless Blaine, stop and think for a while.

What I'm doing is the using the word according to its definition in the English language, rather than misidentifying my personal interpretation of the term as its "true" definition, which is what potatojohn had been doing. A computerized program that emulates the physical components of Monopoly in order to mimic the real-life board game is both a board game simulation and a simplified, abstract economic simulation, since that's the kind of board game Monopoly is. That's not difficult to comprehend. I explained it in a single sentence.

Of course, there's more to defining a word than just its accompanying explanatory text in an English dictionary—there's also common usage to consider, which is why potatojohn is wrong twice over. In common use, "space sim" is used by the vast majority of computer gamers to refer to games such Wing Commander, X-Wing, Freespace and so on. Those games may not be Orbiter, but they're not Pac-Man, either.

I'll remember that when writing about Fallout series.

I wasn't writing a review of the fucking things, I was using them as one amorphous category among several in order to make a general comparison. I played the Wing Commander series religiously, and it too changed considerably between Wing Commander I and Wing Commander: Prophecy. I didn't make a distinction between the Wing Commander games, either. You're absolutely correct: The 1984 Elite was a comparatively simple affair, while the Frontier games were much more sophisticated. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Spectacle]

You're well on they way to making the term simulation entirely meaningless Blaine, stop and think for a while.

What I'm doing is the using the word according to its definition in the English language, rather than misidentifying my personal interpretation of the term as its "true" definition, which is what potatojohn had been doing. A computerized program that emulates the physical components of Monopoly in order to mimic the real-life board game is both a board game simulation and a simplified, abstract economic simulation, since that's the kind of board game Monopoly is. That's not difficult to comprehend. I explained it in a single sentence.

Exactly what is being "simulated" in computer Monopoly? The act of pushing pieces around a board? That is not a key element in the the game, merely a physical tool for representing the game that can be replaced by other tools without changing the rules of the game itself.
I suppose you could claim that it's a simulation since AI players "simulate" human opponents, but this would be strange because.

• I've never seen a game that actually simulates human thought processes, AI players behave according to their own derpy computer logic.
• The game would stop being a simulation if you have only human players.

 

[octavius]

The reason they do arcade instead of simulation is because arcade's supposed to be more fun to play, but it hasn't really worked out for space games.

It worked quite well in the original Elite, and it was certainly more fun than the combat in Frontier. While the cool kids were out burning rubber, I burnt up the rubber keys on my Speccy playing Elite.

The horribly cumbersome pitch&roll system was only fun if you were the kind of person who made Star Wars noises with their mouth while playing, same with arbitrarily constrained speed.

So, did you think combat in Frontier was more fun than the combat in Elite?
And what sounds did you make when playing them?

 

[Kirtai]

So, did you think combat in Frontier was more fun than the combat in Elite?
And what sounds did you make when playing them?

I rather liked the combat in Frontier once I figured out how to match trajectories and stop jousting.

 

[DraQ]

I'll remember that when writing about Fallout series.

I wasn't writing a review of the fucking things, I was using them as one amorphous category among several in order to make a general comparison.

The problem is that they aren't in the same fucking category.

It's like referring to Fallout series as RTWP because that's where the mean squarely lands if you average TB of FO1&2 and RT FPS style of FO3 and FO:NV - misleading and plain fucking incorrect.

So, did you think combat in Frontier was more fun than the combat in Elite?

Of course.

And what sounds did you make when playing them?

None, because space isn't noisy.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Combat in Elite was more fun. Frontier was brilliant, but unfinished game.

 

[DraQ]

Combat in Elite was more fun. Frontier was brilliant, but unfinished game.

It was unfinished, but combat wasn't worse than Elite and would be far better if it used more diverse weaponry and was conducted in more cluttered environment (planetary surfaces with and without atmosphere, vicinity of space stations and large ships, ring systems, etc.).

It just had steeper learning curve due to newtonian mechanics and some stuff being misleadingly labelled (manual and engines off my shiny white ass).

 

[octavius]

So how was the third Elite game? I think it was named Encounters? I never played that one.
How was the combat compared to the previous games, and was the universe as detailed as that of Frontier?

 

[DraQ]

So how was the third Elite game? I think it was named Encounters? I never played that one.
How was the combat compared to the previous games, and was the universe as detailed as that of Frontier?

It's effectively Frontier 2.0, but it was released in alpha stage, fortunately both official patches and community efforts have largely fixed it.

Improvements:
+ AI
+ More stuff
+ Handmade missions
+ Journals
+ Planetary geography and surface elevation
+ no time acceleration splitting attackers bug

Decline:
- manoeuvring thrusters trying to be helpful in combat with no way to turn that fucking off
- some physical and astronomical derp-ups due to being unfinished
- no pwetty bezier clouds

 

[Art Vandelay]

Combat in Elite was more fun. Frontier was brilliant, but unfinished game.

It was unfinished, but combat wasn't worse than Elite and would be far better if it used more diverse weaponry and was conducted in more cluttered environment (planetary surfaces with and without atmosphere, vicinity of space stations and large ships, ring systems, etc.).

It just had steeper learning curve due to newtonian mechanics and some stuff being misleadingly labelled (manual and engines off my shiny white ass).

That and unplayable framerate.

 

[DraQ]

Combat in Elite was more fun. Frontier was brilliant, but unfinished game.

It was unfinished, but combat wasn't worse than Elite and would be far better if it used more diverse weaponry and was conducted in more cluttered environment (planetary surfaces with and without atmosphere, vicinity of space stations and large ships, ring systems, etc.).

It just had steeper learning curve due to newtonian mechanics and some stuff being misleadingly labelled (manual and engines off my shiny white ass).

That and unplayable framerate.

Well, I first played it somewhere around 2006.

 

[Kalin]

Moar updatan! David Braben goes through questions from fans and discusses plenty of new features (ship to ship docking, motherships etc.), talks about art design and delivers some amusing reactions and remarks to suggestions of adding atrocious EVE-style time sinks.

The only thing I didn't like was the mention of doing away with those lovely journals from Frontier: First Encounters. The Imperial Herald in particular was truly excellent with its charmingly pompous and propagandistic tone (which I simply couldn't resist trying to imitate in our Aurora community game), and it was a lot of fun to compare Imperial and Federal articles to see them deliver completely different takes on the same events. Hopefully, the new media reports will at least somewhat mirror this.

That said, it seems like this game will be a proper sequel, true to the good old spirit of the series!

I may not always hype about kickstarter games, but when I do, I generally:

 

[Blaine]

I am absolutely pumped for this game. If only enough Codexians were interested in the MMO-like portion to form a clan... that would be the most clan in any game, ever. Same goes for Star Citizen.

I can't bear to associate myself with plebeians and agents of the decline, so I'll be forced to fly solo.

 

[Mortmal]

There's not enough info yet on the mmo part to know if a clan will be worth making in this game. Clan only works when they are mandatory to achieve something. Well if you want to try why not, there's still time to plan something till 2014

 

[Raapys]

Eh, I'm concerned that both this and SC are trying to do a bit too much. Walking around inside ships? MMO? I don't get it. Why spread already scarce resources even thinner by adding what's essentially fluff? Surely their budgets aren't so big that they have time for that without making sacrifices in other parts of the games? Or at the very least throwing away potential and interesting additions to the core gameplay.

Egosoft have been iterating their X games for a decade or so now, and they're still far from perfect. These guys wanna do all that those games do and much more, and preferably better, and they expect it to be done in 2-3 years. Color me skeptical.