Elite: Dangerous

[Blaine]

He just wants every space game to mimic IW2 space flight mechanics. If the game lacks those, it's has to be shit. Even if it surpasses IW in every other possible aspect.

That's pretty much what I figured, given his earlier comments. IW/IW2 are quite good, but they aren't even remotely close to "hardcore" or "realistic" space sims, either.

In terms of flight mechanics, here's how I see it: On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being the most casual and arcade-y flight/space game (think XBox Live Arcade shovelware) and 10 being a multi-million dollar, hyper-realistic commercial flight simulator (which are too complex and expensive for home PCs), the earlier Wing Commander and X-Wing games rate about 3-4; Freespace/Freespace 2 and the Evochron series rate about 5; the Elite/Frontier franchise, Vendetta Online and IW/IW2 rate about 6-7; and the more complicated PC-based flight simulators (include NASA orbiter and lunar lander simulators) rate 8-9. Multi-PC, multi-monitor home sim pit setups are the 9. 10s aren't possible to do in the home unless you're a multimillionaire.

I reckon Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous will rate around 5-6. This is perfectly acceptable, in my opinion, and almost certainly preferably to anything more complex. Limit Theory and X: Rebirth will rate lower, but will each be more focused on advanced fleet command, construction, the economy and so on.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I doubt such an ambitious game can be made without either it ending up severely underwhelming and repetitive limited like Freelancer, or without it going way over the scheduled release date and running out of funding.

And I don't know, but a port of a BBC Micro game onto a full modern 3D engine... I don't see how it will work well. I think that the repetitive nature of the game will stick out like a sore thumb with the ameliorated technology.

 

[Kirtai]

There's a space combat board game called Attack Vector: Tactical which is supposedly based on realistic physics. I've never tried it but it looks interesting. It might make a good base for a space game, though not a real-time one.

Here's a few more.

 

[Kalin]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous

Successfully funded as of roughly twenty minutes ago with a surplus of over £320,000!

 

[Blaine]

There's a space combat board game called Attack Vector: Tactical which is supposedly based on realistic physics. I've never tried it but it looks interesting. It might make a good base for a space game, though not a real-time one.

Here's a few more.

Oh man, I remember playing Attack Vector ages ago, probably sometime in 2005-2006.

 

[Tzaero]

 

[Destroid]

Submarines in space could be alright, I mean a lot of people like the Silent Hunter games.

 

[potatojohn]

I will allow that the X series, with its simple flight mechanics and lack of Newtonian physics, can be construed as arcade-y... although that ignores its fleet dynamics and automation, complex economy and sandbox elements. Limit Theory too appears arcade-y in the flight mechanics department, although again, it will feature fleet dynamics, procedural generation and complex sandbox elements. This is more than enough to qualify each of the two games as space trading, exploration, building and combat simulations

So Sim City is a space sim according to you? Because Sim City and X have about the same level of space flight simulation. The former doesn't have it at all, the latter fails at it so completely it might as well not have it.

 

[Kirtai]

So Sim City is a space sim according to you? Because Sim City and X have about the same level of space flight simulation. The former doesn't have it at all, the latter fails at it so completely it might as well not have it.

In Sim City 2000 you can eventually launch arcologies into space. I suppose that could count as as much accurate space flight simulation as the average space shooter.

 

[Blaine]

So Sim City is a space sim according to you? Because Sim City and X have about the same level of space flight simulation. The former doesn't have it at all, the latter fails at it so completely it might as well not have it.

You deserve a trophy for your semantics, spin doctoring and special pleading, but it's not enough to convince anyone who doesn't have their head stuck up their ass.

You are quite obviously someone who's played a space simulation that's slightly more complex than average, but far less so than any remotely "realistic" sim, and now considers himself some kind of connoisseur. Don't flatter yourself.

 

[tindrli]

i have a strange feeling that the game is already finished and that they are aiming for profit only

 

[potatojohn]

You deserve a trophy for your semantics, spin doctoring and special pleading,

Those are some big words for someone whose responses to me have been all ad hom and no substance.

Just tell us, is Sim City a space sim according to you?

 

[Blaine]

Those are some big words for someone whose responses to me have been all ad hom and no substance.

You mean except for the paragraphs in which I logically explain my position in exact detail? Here, let's have a look at your substantial contributions:

They're not space sims, they're arcade shooters with space-themed skyboxes.

None of them are space sims. It's like calling HAWX a flight sim.

And if complaining about this absurd mislabeling is spergy then sperg on.

So Sim City is a space sim according to you? Because Sim City and X have about the same level of space flight simulation. The former doesn't have it at all, the latter fails at it so completely it might as well not have it.

Looks like opinion-spouting (opinions you refuse to back up with logic) and a straw man/loaded question to me. Tell us, what computer games would you consider to be "real" space sims?

 

[tindrli]

 

[potatojohn]

You mean except for the paragraphs in which I logically explain my position in exact detail?

So explain to us here, is Sim City a space sim or not? If the economy and building make X a space sim despite it lack of... space simulation, then is Sim City a space sim? Huh Blaine? Will you answer the question?

Looks like opinion-spouting (opinions you refuse to back up with logic)

You mean like my opinion that arcade games with space skyboxes shouldn't be called space simulators? Seems pretty logical to me.

 

[Blaine]

So explain to us here, is Sim City a space sim or not? If the economy and building make X a space sim despite it lack of... space simulation, then is Sim City a space sim? Huh Blaine? Will you answer the question?

I don't answer loaded questions and tend to disregard straw man arguments.

You mean like my opinion that arcade games with space skyboxes shouldn't be called space simulators? Seems pretty logical to me.

I want examples and comparisons. It annoys me to repeat myself, but I have provided you with examples and comparisons to back up my opinion: a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the most simplistic and arcade-y aeroplane/spaceship game, and 10 being a commercial or military flight simulator. I have named a variety of space simulator-type games and assigned them positions on that scale.

Give me an example of some games you would consider to be proper space simulators, or fuck off. I'm not going to take a potatojohn quiz designed to support your squealing about how ED et alia aren't hardcore enough to meet your terminology criteria when you won't tell anyone just what your criteria are.

 

[potatojohn]

OK. Orbiter is a space sim. I don't know what an example achieves, but I hope you're happy? Will you answer my question now - do you think Sim City is a space sim? Why and why not?

 

[Blaine]

Yep, that's pretty much all I needed to know.

 

[potatojohn]

Yep, that's pretty much all I needed to know.

Well I'm glad you've finally given up your frankly embarrassing position and come to agree with me. If only everyone were as intellectually honest as you, the world would be a better place !

 

[Blaine]

Well I'm glad you've finally given up your frankly embarrassing position and come to agree with me. If only everyone were as intellectually honest as you, the world would be a better place !

Are you misinterpreting what I said on purpose, or are you actually mentally handicapped? I'm genuinely unsure which at this point.

Anyway, yeah, essentially in your opinion a spaceship-based computer simulation is an arcade game and shouldn't be called a "space sim" unless it's a NASA orbiter simulator. What semantic, literal-minded, childish twaddle.

 

[tuluse]

itt: Blaine cannot be untrolled

 

[Blaine]

It's not my fault that some Codexians' concept of winning an argument can be very accurately compared to the following:

 

[PetrusOctavianus]

The reason they do arcade instead of simulation is because arcade's supposed to be more fun to play, but it hasn't really worked out for space games.

It worked quite well in the original Elite, and it was certainly more fun than the combat in Frontier. While the cool kids were out burning rubber, I burnt up the rubber keys on my Speccy playing Elite.

 

[Blaine]

Adding a bunch of complicated controls, physics and game mechanics to a game doesn't necessarily make it "more of a simulation" than another game with much simpler controls, physics and game mechanics. For example, many computer board games based on real-life board games simulate the real thing extremely closely, yet are easy to develop and simple to learn. In fact I daresay computer Monopoly is a more accurate and thorough simulation of Monopoly than most computer flight simulators are of flying an actual airplane.

Some people who've posted in this thread (potatojohn, for example) don't understand what the word "simulation" actually means, nor do they seem to grasp that not all simulations must be hyper-realistic in order to qualify as simulations. Simulations can be (and often are) abstracted as appropriate. Simulations differ greatly in their granularity, scope, and area of focus. Commercial and military airplane, helicopter and orbiter piloting simulators are by far the most elaborate, complex and true-to-life simulations in existence, but the word "simulation" is not reserved only for them. In the broadest sense, every computer game that's ever been developed is a simulation.

What potatojohn thinks of as a "space simulation" would in fact more properly be described as a "hyper-realistic space vessel piloting simulation." I know perfectly well that games like Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen are a comfortable medium between simple arcade games and hardcore, hyper-realistic piloting simulations. Most people do, and don't see the need to throw a squealing tantrum about it.

 

[potatojohn]

Blaine, you are a hyperrealistic simulation of a retard.

How old are you? Have you ever played orbiter? Do you even know what an orbit is?