Elite: Dangerous

[DraQ]

ITT space spergs are mad that this space dogfighter isn't realistic.

If you made an FPS more along lines of Doom than some sort of milsim, it would still not be an excuse for making players swim in the air instead of walking on the ground.

Well this is a game where you navigate a void instead of a maze, so "swimming through the air" in this case is appropriate, non?

So is the notion of up and down, and yet it went over your head.

 

[Morkar Left]

Dunno why people are complaining it isn't realistic enough. It was mentioned right from the start that they want the original Elite experience and not frontier with newtonian physics.

 

[Raapys]

Then I guess we're just back to 'when will we finally get a proper space sim??' again.

 

[Morkar Left]

If you guys already know that it is not your game why hanging around here any longer and bitching about? Butthurt much?

Besides that there was Frontier 1 + 2, there's pioneer, I-War, I-War 2, That Babylon 5 mod/game, Terminus, a bunch of lunar lander games...

 

[Raapys]

Of those, only Frontier1&2 and Iwar1&2 can be considered proper games. Of those, two are old and played to death and the other two are played to death as well.

Arcade fans have had tons more, and more recent, games to pick from.

 

[Bradylama]

ITT space spergs are mad that this space dogfighter isn't realistic.

If you made an FPS more along lines of Doom than some sort of milsim, it would still not be an excuse for making players swim in the air instead of walking on the ground.

Well this is a game where you navigate a void instead of a maze, so "swimming through the air" in this case is appropriate, non?

So is the notion of up and down, and yet it went over your head.

Your ship can translate up and down! They justified it with technobabble! Besides, in the void of space "up" and "down" only exist relative to the pilot's perspective. FTL travel without warping space itself is also impossible, but you must have FTL in the game or it would take you an entire month just to go from planet to planet! What you're complaining about is that an internally consistent fictional setting isn't "realistic," and therefore it's impossible for you to suspend disbelief! How can any of you play fantasy-based RPGs without constantly devolving into these autistic nitpicks over another person's creation!?

 

[Ulminati]

Your ship can translate up and down! They justified it with technobabble!

That's called a reaction control system. The ships have thrusters pointing up/down/left/right that they use for turning and translating. No technobabble there. People who cannot fathom RCS have no place in a discussion about how "realistic" a space game is.


In other news, the Battletar Galactica maneuver (do a pass, flip 180, shoot while flying backwards) works really well. I'm digging flight assist off, even if it makes your ship a lot harder to steer. Most AI opponents like to do a flyby, then fly more or less straight out to ~2km range, turn around and do another pass. The BSG flip lets you win every trade like that. Feels good man.

 

[Bradylama]

Your ship can translate up and down! They justified it with technobabble!

That's called a reaction control system. The ships have thrusters pointing up/down/left/right that they use for turning and translating. No technobabble there.

I thought the ship could translate in those directions by utilizing its hyperspace engine, because there's no way that the dinky little thrusters on your ship are capable of achieving the same velocity as the massive rear engines.

 

[Ulminati]

They're most likely powered by the main engines propellant being channeled through them. They'd have more or less the same thrust as the main engine that way, and you wouldn't have to add additional expensive engines to the ship.

 

[Bradylama]

They're most likely powered by the main engines propellant being channeled through them. They'd have more or less the same thrust as the main engine that way, and you wouldn't have to add additional expensive engines to the ship.

There's no visual exhaust coming from the ship when it translates, though. I'm not saying you're wrong, but if the main engines have that visual flair, shouldn't the directional thrusters as well? Before anybody says it, I do know you can see the maneuvering thrusters.

 

[Morkar Left]

Of those, only Frontier1&2 and Iwar1&2 can be considered proper games. Of those, two are old and played to death and the other two are played to death as well.

Arcade fans have had tons more, and more recent, games to pick from.

Please define what's a "proper" space game for you and what disqualifies a game for you to be "proper".

 

[bonescraper]

Take this whole "proper and improper space sim" discussion to the Star Citizen thread, ok?

 

[Raapys]

Of those, only Frontier1&2 and Iwar1&2 can be considered proper games. Of those, two are old and played to death and the other two are played to death as well.

Arcade fans have had tons more, and more recent, games to pick from.

Please define what's a "proper" space game for you and what disqualifies a game for you to be "proper".

Not a mod/open-source project for one. Not a fucking moon landing simulator for another. Give me Iwar3 and Frontier 2. And give them actual development teams and decent budgets.

When did everyone become a fan of arcade MMO space sims anyway? Is this all Freelancer's doing?

 

[bonescraper]

No, it's X-Wing's and Freespace's doing. Now GTFO.

 

[Morkar Left]

Not a mod/open-source project for one. Not a fucking moon landing simulator for another. Give me Iwar3 and Frontier 2. And give them actual development teams and decent budgets.

When did everyone become a fan of arcade MMO space sims anyway? Is this all Freelancer's doing?

I'm not a freespace fan either and I think the differences to the lightweighted freespace are obvious.

Sounds like you're only butthurt about that it hasn't enough newtonian physics. Newtonian physics were always a rarity in space games and only used in a small fraction of them. Bitching about that it isn't there is a bit pretentious.
Well, maybe there will be an I-War 3 in the future as a kickstarter (which I would gladly back). But this kickstarter was about a sequel to the first Elite. And that was pretty clear right from the start. Whining about that it isn't what you dreamed it should be even years after is leading to nothing.

And I don't know what's speaking against an open source project especially when it's pretty much exactly what you want: Frontier 3. Yes, it will still take years till it's playable but maybe they can fund the project with a kickstarter, too to speed up the process. (And First Encounter is modded with decent graphics as well for you to enjoy).

It's a shame that there aren't more space games which use newtonian physics. Or planet landing or station exploring, crew mechanics, away teams / first person exploration, proper communication like starflight etc. if we're at it.

 

[DraQ]

People who cannot fathom RCS have no place in a discussion about how "realistic" a space game is.

I thought the ship could translate in those directions by utilizing its hyperspace engine, because there's no way that the dinky little thrusters on your ship are capable of achieving the same velocity as the massive rear engines.

Case in point.

There's no visual exhaust coming from the ship when it translates, though.

relative to '93, then.

Sounds like you're only butthurt about that it hasn't enough newtonian physics. Newtonian physics were always a rarity in space games

So was goodness.

But this kickstarter was about a sequel to the first Elite.

There was a sequel to the first Elite already, and sequel to that too.

 

[Raapys]

No, it's X-Wing's and Freespace's doing. Now GTFO.

Dude, you're in my thread. I'm the boss here.

Sounds like you're only butthurt about that it hasn't enough newtonian physics. Newtonian physics were always a rarity in space games and only used in a small fraction of them. Bitching about that it isn't there is a bit pretentious.
Well, maybe there will be an I-War 3 in the future as a kickstarter (which I would gladly back). But this kickstarter was about a sequel to the first Elite. And that was pretty clear right from the start. Whining about that it isn't what you dreamed it should be even years after is leading to nothing.

And I don't know what's speaking against an open source project especially when it's pretty much exactly what you want: Frontier 3. Yes, it will still take years till it's playable but maybe they can fund the project with a kickstarter, too to speed up the process. (And First Encounter is modded with decent graphics as well for you to enjoy).

It's a shame that there aren't more space games which use newtonian physics. Or planet landing or station exploring, crew mechanics, away teams / first person exploration, proper communication like starflight etc. if we're at it.

It's the combination of stuff I'm butthurt about. Too much multiplayer focus and sacrifices being made in its name. Too much talk about the stuff you just mentioned; station exploration, first person activities, etc.

Sure, some of this sounds fine on paper. But in the real world, we *always* end up with half-assed implementations due to a spread of resources and focus and going outside the development team's preferred genre. So thanks, but no thanks. I don't want another Derek Smart's Battlecruiser 3000AD. Concentrate on the core game. So why realistic/newtonian? Because Iwar2 was newtonian and it played a lot better than any arcade space game ever did, including Freespace 1/2, X-wing/TieFighter, Elite, etc. It's that simple.

As for open source projects, no thanks. No open source fan project is ever completed, production values usually end up at 0, and the few hobby devs bothering to work on it get sick of it after a year or two. Hoping for a miracle there is ridiculous. At best it'll end up as a fun-for-a-few-hours tech demo.

 

[Morkar Left]

Sure, some of this sounds fine on paper. But in the real world, we *always* end up with half-assed implementations due to a spread of resources and focus and going outside the development team's preferred genre. So thanks, but no thanks. I don't want another Derek Smart's Battlecruiser 3000AD. Concentrate on the core game.

That's why they choose to implement this stuff later in expansions (which means it will probably never come).
Btw Battlecruiser is bad because Derek Smart has just bad design. Otherwise he would have fixed the games' flaws with Universal Combat.

So why realistic/newtonian? Because Iwar2 was newtonian and it played a lot better than any arcade space game ever did, including Freespace 1/2, X-wing/TieFighter, Elite, etc. It's that simple.

A lot of people, I would say the majority, doesn't feel like this. They want more the dogfighting style. Personally I enjoy both but prefer newtonian because it has better feeling to fly in space by allowing you to shut off your engines and drifting in space for example.

 

[Raapys]

That's why they choose to implement this stuff later in expansions (which means it will probably never come).
Btw Battlecruiser is bad because Derek Smart has just bad design. Otherwise he would have fixed the games' flaws with Universal Combat.

There's much to be said for Derek Smart, most of it bad, but the fact of the matter is that no game developer has pulled off that kind of ambition. And I don't see that changing with SC or Elite, even if they hold it off for expansions.

A lot of people, I would say the majority, doesn't feel like this. They want more the dogfighting style. Personally I enjoy both but prefer newtonian because it has better feeling to fly in space by allowing you to shut off your engines and drifting in space for example.

I think it's more due to the fact that most people haven't played IW2, probably due to the lack of integrated mouse support and general obscurity. Frontier didn't really give a proper impression of what newtonian 'dogfighting' could be like since you were usually traveling at very high relative speeds to the enemy out in the middle of nowhere. Not to mention the poor technical aspects of the game due to limitations at the time.

There's been a few since then, like Evochron, Terminus, B5 IFH, etc., but then you're back to the whole 'you actually need a (good) game to go with the flight model' thing. That's where for instance Freespace 2(which I consider the best space sim overall) had a huge advantage; the arcade flight model wasn't much, but the rest of the game was superb in almost every way.

 

[DraQ]

So why realistic/newtonian? Because Iwar2 was newtonian and it played a lot better than any arcade space game ever did, including Freespace 1/2, X-wing/TieFighter, Elite, etc. It's that simple.

I never really liked I-War 2 (for a number of reasons including a bit half-assed space, no actual realspace travel at any distance, poor AI, extending "laser" beams, schizophrenic stealth and stupid health regen autorepair), but it really mostly nailed combat - subtargetting, shield mechanics, relatively large number of hardpoints, mostly projectile weapons, the feeling of mass and inertia when maneuvring - what's not to love?


As for dogfighting - well, yeah, I-War was about ships few weight categories above fighters, if it was about fighters you might have had I-War style dogfights and I don't see any reason why they would work any different, your ship in I-War 2 already felt like like oversized fighter a lot of the time.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Majority of people never played a newtonian space game.

 

[Ulminati]

Kerbal space program, now there's a proper Newtonian space game. And it sure as hell would make for boring combat. The only way you'll hit something moving at several km/s relative velocity would be with a computer doing all the aiming for you.

 

[J_C]

Majority of people never played a newtonian space game.

I admit I never did, and I really don't care, I can't imagine how this is an important part of a space sim. Neither of the classic space sims (x-wing, tie-fighter, freespace, wing commander etc) had it, and they were good. As Ulminate said above me, it wouldn't enhance the game, but make it boring (looking at the vidoes, I-war 2 dogfights were just that, boring). Wow, I can switch off th engines and drift in space, what a great feature. I might paint a big bullseye mark on my plain and write: HIT ME. Give me lots of subsystems to manage, target and interact with, and I will be happy with my simulation. Slow and sluggish movement can stay the fuck out of my space game. As well of multiplayer and fucking MMO mechanics, while we are at it.

 

[Morkar Left]

There was a sequel to the first Elite already, and sequel to that too.

Except Braben stated right from the start that he will not adapt the mechanics from Frontier and going back to the roots with combat and flight model.

 

[buzz]

It's always a treat to see sperglords talking about realism in space games, the LEAST REALISTIC type of game you can make outside of those involving straight-up magic .

Take city builders for example. The idea is as down to earth as possible: build and administrate cities. Yet there's always some supernatural/unrealistic shit in them. In Impression games, the gods play an active role either blessing your settlement or cursing it with supernatural stuff. In Sim City, you can have UFOs, zombies, giant robots and monsters attacking your city. Yet for some reason, that fanbase doesn't have a whole bunch of autists complaining about muh realism. No one goes and says "building cities from scratch doesn't make sense durr why is the latest anno game a modern/sci-fish city builder hurr".

Pretty much most video game genres in existence have more legitimate claim to realism than space simulators do. Racing games? Sure. Shooters? Quite logical. Adventure games? You can always make an adventure game grounded in reality (like a straight-up detective story). Fucking fantasy RPGs and other fantasy games? Sure, blame it on drugs or dreaming.

That being said, I'm not against making space games feel and play different. Innovation is key and it's why space games have evolved from Space Invaders and Galaxian to Elite and Wing Commnander.
Just don't pretend you're doing it for the sake of making games scientifically accurate. If you want scientifically accurate games, play Orbiter or SSM and try to promote those kind of games to be further developed.