Elite: Dangerous

[bonescraper]

No, it's X-Wing's and Freespace's doing. Now GTFO.

Dude, you're in my thread. I'm the boss here.

Then that's really sad. Seems like you completely missed the point of Elite.

I'll be honest, i never played the original Elite. My first and only Elite game was Frontier. Yup, the one with Newtonian physics. And i didn't give a fuck about physics in that game. Frontier was the game that stole my childhood because it was so fucking huge, so open and full of possibilities like no other game before. And all of that was contained on a 880 KB Amiga floppy disk. I couldn't wrap my head around it, how this massive game could run from a single floppy when simple games like Mortal Kombat 2 required four? Frontier is one of my favorite games of all time, and Newtonian physics isn't what made it so dear to me.

Elite Dangerous keeps the core elements i loved about Frontier intact. It's fucking huge, open and offers many paths to fame and glory. Also, i apprieciate the classic Elite aesthetics in ship and space station design, the old-school radar and all those smaller touches that make this game look and feel like a proper Elite game.

So, if your biggest no-buy factor is the lack of Newtoniand physics, you never got what this game was all about. So, just kindly make your own thread about space sims with Newtonian physics, and sperg on in peace with your two other friends.

 

[potatojohn]

I admit I never did, and I really don't care, I can't imagine how this is an important part of a space sim.

You're like a Fallout 3 fanboy shitting on Fallout in a kotaku article. There is beauty and logic to it that you just don't fucking understand because you haven't played the relevant games. How does it feel to be an agent of decline?

 

[Morkar Left]

His point is that Frontier or other games with newtonian physics was never considered that important to space sim fans in general compared to big space sims like Elite, Wing Commader series, X-Wing series and Freespace series. These are the games "space sim" fans are always referring to.

 

[J_C]

There is beauty and logic to it that you just don't fucking understand because you haven't played the relevant games.

Strange that nobody could tell me that what is that beauty and logic in newtonian space sims. Maybe because there isn't anything groundbreaking! But maybe you could enlighten this agent of decline.

 

[Raapys]

Then that's really sad. Seems like you completely missed the point of Elite.

I'll be honest, i never played the original Elite. My first and only Elite game was Frontier. Yup, the one with Newtonian physics. And i didn't give a fuck about physics in that game. Frontier was the game that stole my childhood because it was so fucking huge, so open and full of possibilities like no other game before. And all of that was contained on a 880 KB Amiga floppy disk. I couldn't wrap my head around it, how this massive game could run from a single floppy when simple games like Mortal Kombat 2 required four? Frontier is one of my favorite games of all time, and Newtonian physics isn't what made it so dear to me.

Elite Dangerous keeps the core elements i loved about Frontier intact. It's fucking huge, open and offers many paths to fame and glory. Also, i apprieciate the classic Elite aesthetics in ship and space station design, the old-school radar and all those smaller touches that make this game look and feel like a proper Elite game.

So, if your biggest no-buy factor is the lack of Newtoniand physics, you never got what this game was all about. So, just kindly make your own thread about space sims with Newtonian physics, and sperg on in peace with your two other friends.

That's fine, and I feel exactly the same with regards to Frontier. And if you had bothered to read my posts between your post here and our last exchange, you would have noticed my reason for wanting Newtonian having nothing to with actual realism, nor with how newtonian was presented in Frontier(i.e. poorly, due to both technical limitations of the time and design).

Anyway, it does indeed become a pointless debate when people haven't actually played through Iwar2, like our J_C here. They don't even know what they don't know.

But no, it's just one of several "no-buy" factors. My biggest one is the multiplayer focus, which I fear is gonna make the singleplayer experience a lot worse than it could have been with a pure SP focus. But I've never claimed I'm not gonna buy the game; also mentioned in previous posts, my favorite overall space sim is Freespace 2, which is completely arcade. And it's quite possible Elite will end up a great game overall too. But it can always be better.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Majority of people never played a newtonian space game.

I admit I never did, and I really don't care, I can't imagine how this is an important part of a space sim.

Space sims simulate flying a spacecraft. If there's no newtonian physics, there's no simulation, but an ordinary shooter set in pseudo space.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

There is beauty and logic to it that you just don't fucking understand because you haven't played the relevant games.

Strange that nobody could tell me that what is that beauty and logic in newtonian space sims. Maybe because there isn't anything groundbreaking! But maybe you could enlighten this agent of decline.

How about:
Flying something that vaguely behaves like a spacecraft in a medium that vaguely behaves like space?
I'm not talking about hardcore stuff like Orbiter or SSMS but about arcade space sims like Frontier First Encounters or Pioneer.

 

[Ulminati]

How about:
Accept that they wanted to use the flight model they did and you stop being a fucking autist. If you don't like it, go play I-war.

 

[buzz]

Space sims simulate flying a spacecraft.

Space sims simulate flying a spacecraft in the same way Minecraft simulates mining. As in, not at fucking all.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Space sims simulate flying a spacecraft.

Space sims simulate flying a spacecraft in the same way Minecraft simulates mining. As in, not at fucking all.

If they don't simulate flying a spacecraft, they aren't space sims, but simple shooters. Not sure if space because space in them certainly doesn't behave like space.

 

[J_C]

Space sims simulate flying a spacecraft.

Space sims simulate flying a spacecraft in the same way Minecraft simulates mining. As in, not at fucking all.

If they don't simulate flying a spacecraft, they aren't space sims, but simple shooters. Not sure if space because space in them certainly doesn't behave like space.

You guys get it all wrong. In games like Star Citizen and Elite, the main point is not the simulation of the spacecraft, but the simulation of being a spacepirate/trader/bounty hunter, running a space empire etc. That you can explore the galaxy, be whatever you want to be.

 

[buzz]

If they don't simulate flying a spacecraft, they aren't space sims, but simple shooters. Not sure if space because space in them certainly doesn't behave like space.

You can't simulate "spacecraft" because "spacecrafts" like in your generic space sim don't fucking exist. Space navigation as we know it today is very limited and very dangerous and expensive. You can't "simulate" that which doesn't exist and will probably not exist either.

What we consider a spacecraft today is the kind of vehicle that can break apart if a piece of foam hits one of the wings. Space travel and space stations as we know it means going into low earth orbit , only a dozen people went further than that and actually visited the moon. Everything else was unmanned and even those haven't completely left the sun's orbit, in a travel that took them decades.
Here are a few images to help you understand the scale:
The scale of low earth orbit space (the place where manned space travel takes place) compared to the moon.
How giant is the distance from Earth to Mars compared to the distance from Earth to the Moon.
How far did a man-made object managed to travel so far. The oort cloud is technically the "edge" of the solar system. Voyager 1 will shut all of its systems before reaching that.
And that's the basic part. You better hope that once we reach Mars in a couple of decades, there's some magical "quantum physics hyperdrive" from ancient magical alien race that allows us to move at FTL speeds (which is mostly physically impossible), ignore all the debris and radiation, ignore time dilation and plenty of other things that make space simulators as we know it simply impossible beyond any measure of doubt.

And that's the logistics on reaching other stars alone. Then you have the whole idea about colonizing and terraforming other places, living in space which is hard enough for psychologically prepared astronauts let alone normal guys, and all that shit. Making space traveling such a commodity that one guy can just go whatever the fuck he wants in his one-manned ship, like it's some kind of a car. Allowing individual people to just "mine" and "trade" in space just like that. Thinking that piracy in space would be really possible.

There are so many things that are not realistic in "space sims" it's not even funny. Here's how a true space sim would actually work:
- convince lobbyists and the government to fund a new set of manned missions to the moon.
- defend yourself against a butthurt Buzz Aldrin who will argue that you will ruin their legacy by going to the moon again
- try not to cry when the government only gives you the middle finger.
- debunk conspiracy theories about the moon landings being a scam on your website, using an MS comics font
- try to convince an old fart to spend a few tens of millions of dollars so he can go to space on some derelict russian space station from the soviet era
- be ass-devastated that you're not a little snowflake anymore now that china, europe, japan and india are in the space race as well
- try to contain the need to shit yourself the moment a couple of astronauts are launched in space from the fear that the smallest of things could have went wrong
- quote Hawking, Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson on reddit and manage the "SPACE IS AWESOME FUCK YEAH!!!11" facebook page where people post space-related memes
- send another little robot on Mars

There you go, enjoy your space sim! Now fuck off and let the people who enjoy fantasy adventures in space have their fun.

 

[J_C]

 

[buzz]

Even the most basic thing about space sims (the proper space flight) does not fit real-world logic. Look, even in modern times humanity is looking forward to making everything automatic or to place people out of danger. We've been using 3rd and 4th generation warfare (infiltration, sabotage, political and psychological warfare, low intensity conflicts etc.) since WW2. Why would we suddenly have giant fights in space with pew pew lasers?
Shit, why would we send people to do those kind of fights or pilot those ships? Even today we have combat drones and a whole lot of research on making autopilots and autonomous vehicles better.

 

[Runciter]

That we haven't sent anything ambitious to space is not for lack of technology but purpose, motivation and money. We already know the laws of physics and engineering principles which all future spacecraft will require. The only significant differences between present and future propulsion will be in efficiency and thrust. Today's technology is good enough to get us to other bodies close to the Sun and with 50s nuclear propulsion we could get anywhere in the Solar system quickly. But what is really stopping us from going is that it is expensive to send things to space and we don't have the infrastructure out there yet to put together larger spacecraft. Once we can build things in orbit or on low-gravity bodies, this will change dramatically. We are being held back by a chicken-and-egg situation rather than by magical technology waiting to be discovered.

My point is, we know exactly what space flight will look like, we know how to extrapolate today's technology, apply it in space and we certainly know how to simulate it. If we simulate it in a fully-realistic game, will it be fun? Perhaps not, but we can certainly make a game which compromises only where necessary. There have been a few games designed along those lines. They have been well-received by a group of people who are very hungry for the next game to take the genre further. Elite: Dangerous looked at first like it might have been that next game but it is clear now that it won't be. I don't think anyone cares much for pew pew lasers, what is important is that feeling of plausibility that arcade games can never give us.

 

[buzz]

My point is, we know exactly what space flight will look like, we know how to extrapolate today's technology, apply it in space and we certainly know how to simulate it.

Most likely nothing like a typical space sim looks like.

Today's technology is good enough to get us to other bodies close to the Sun and with 50s nuclear propulsion we could get anywhere in the Solar system quickly.

what the fuck are you talking about? It took 253 days to get the last robot on Mars. Even with nuclear power we're still talking about several weeks to a month of travel. And that's for Mars alone. The so-called space-sims are not about a month-long trip to mars, not even about a exploring the solar system. No, they're about Interstellar travel.
Even if we reach light speed (which is reaching into magic fantasy territory), that would still take several years to reach Alpha Centauri alone.

But what is really stopping us from going is that it is expensive to send things to space and we don't have the infrastructure out there yet to put together larger spacecraft. Once we can build things in orbit or on low-gravity bodies, this will change dramatically. We are being held back by a chicken-and-egg situation rather than by magical technology waiting to be discovered.

So, once we magically solve hard problems, we will able to tackle the next hard problems?
You're not talking about chicken-and-egg situation, you're talking about some seriously hardcore situation. Things do not just magically get less expensive. Putting anything more than a little robot or a flag on the moon would alone be a revolutionary marvel, let alone build bases and send more satellites in more dangerous (debris and radiation) orbits on low-gravity planets.

And again, think of the scale. We're talking about making a base on the moon. Not colonies on Jupiter's moons, not space stations near Neptune, certainly not colonies on an earth-like planet thousands of light years away.

There have been a few games designed along those lines.

No, those games were not designed to be "close enough". They were designed to be naval adventures with trading and piracy and all that Caribbean joy. Realism and scientific accuracy had nothing to do with it. That's why you have time dilation or warp drives, or auto-pilots that handle docking instead of the actual traveling like it should. That's why you have pew pew lasers that you have to aim yourself instead of a computer firing them.

Again, don't get me wrong. I don't think that space sims should not have Newtonian physics, not at all. That sounds like a great game on its own, where you have to take inertia into consideration, you can't shift directions abruptly and so forth. Yes, that's sounds really great. Just stop pretending you want that because it's more realistic and scientifically accurate, it's fucking embarrassing. Like anime sperglords who want "realistic" mechas kind of pathetic.

 

[J_C]

that feeling of plausibility that arcade games can never give us.

It is funny that a real space sim must have newtonian physics, but you don't care if the ships have magic armor, magic propulsion, magic lasers, magic computers and so on. Think of it this way, if the future ships can have those magic subsystem, maybe we will have magic controls that make the ships control like an arcade game. This has happened before, compared to WW2 fighter planes, today's jets controlled like a dream.

 

[bonescraper]

Elite: Dangerous looked at first like it might have been that next game

No, it didn't.

Source: Kickstarter page.

Source: Reddit Q&A session with Braben during the Kickstarter campaign.

But no, it's just one of several "no-buy" factors. My biggest one is the multiplayer focus, which I fear is gonna make the singleplayer experience a lot worse than it could have been with a pure SP focus.

You need to elaborate on that, because so far it's just empty talk to me. I have played the game online for 3 days straight, and haven't noticed any "multiplayer compromises" or whatever you want to call it.

 

[potatojohn]

It is funny that a real space sim must have newtonian physics, but you don't care if the ships have magic armor, magic propulsion, magic lasers, magic computers and so on. Think of it this way, if the future ships can have those magic subsystem, maybe we will have magic controls that make the ships control like an arcade game. This has happened before, compared to WW2 fighter planes, today's jets controlled like a dream.

Ah yes the magic future technology that makes it so ships can't go faster than 100m/s

That's like saying that in the future they'll have a magic cure for cancer - bleach.

 

[J_C]

It is funny that a real space sim must have newtonian physics, but you don't care if the ships have magic armor, magic propulsion, magic lasers, magic computers and so on. Think of it this way, if the future ships can have those magic subsystem, maybe we will have magic controls that make the ships control like an arcade game. This has happened before, compared to WW2 fighter planes, today's jets controlled like a dream.

Ah yes the magic future technology that makes it so ships can't go faster than 100m/s

That's like saying that in the future they'll have a magic cure for cancer - bleach.

We are not talking about maximum speed now, don't know why do you bring this up. I was just saying that if we pretend that having magic propulsion (which travel FTL), magic laser and other magic stuff is OK, then I don't know why not having realistic newtonian physics is a gamebreaker.

 

[potatojohn]

The space sim equivalent of "you press a button, something awesome has to happen"

 

[buzz]

The space sim equivalent of "you press a button, something awesome has to happen"

Space sims are the equivalent of "See that star? You can FTL travel over there." so I don't see the problem.

 

[Kalin]

Capped speed and jumping within systems is not what the Elite games were about, they obviously scrapped the old system in favour of adding multiplayer, but personally I have zero interest in that. I expected them to stick with their roots and make an ultra-snazzy singleplayer sequel to Frontier: First Encounters, not some casual semi-MMORPG with gameplay "features" from EVE Online.

Not to say that Elite: Dangerous won't be fun to play, but it will be a very different kind of game from its namesakes.

 

[bonescraper]

Capped speed and jumping within systems is not what the Elite games were about, they obviously scrapped the old system in favour of adding multiplayer

You mean just like the X games? Oh... wait.

And here i thought Elite was all about trading, dogfighting, piracy and exploration.

 

[Ulminati]

In this thread: Developer promised to deliver apples. Autists complain their apples don't taste like banana.