Elite: Dangerous

[Morkar Left]

Yes, every game that costs more than 3$ deserves to get pirated. What are they thinking!

 

[LordDenton]

You're right, he should give it away for free!

Nope. He should just ask for the average Kickstarter amount that grants you a digital copy. Somewhere between $10-$20.

 

[Blaine]

How did you arrive at that figure? Did you take into account the fact that some projects are made-for-iOS casual puzzlers? Is "everyone else is doing it" a suitable rationale by which to set one's prices?

$32 is a steal. In 1990, computer games with far fewer features routinely cost $60, which would be $102 today, adjusting for inflation.

 

[tuluse]

Fargo and Schafer charged $15. Obsidian charged $20/$25.

Developers were not getting $60 in 1990, the store and publisher were both taking a cut. They were probably lucky to get $15 a copy.

 

[Tzaero]

I reckon that this might barely get funded.

 

[Blaine]

Fargo and Schafer charged $15. Obsidian charged $20/$25.

That's their prerogative. Chris Roberts charged $30-$37.

Developers were not getting $60 in 1990, the store and publisher were both taking a cut. They were probably lucky to get $15 a copy.

$15 in 1990 is equivalent to $25 today. Games in 1990 were also significantly faster and less expensive to develop; technology has advanced, but requires more work and expertise to implement. He's charging half of what AAA developers charge, for what I expect to be a far superior product.

The most important point is that this isn't extreme couponing, and in my opinion, it shouldn't be viewed solely as an advanced form of pre-ordering either. Pledge to projects you believe in; otherwise, don't. $32 is a pittance, and if you're complaining about it, you're either destitute or you have a bone to pick with the game other than its price. To Elite fans and space sim fans in general, the game is worth much more than $32 a copy. You can't find an Elite sequel in the supermarket next to the mustard.

 

[LordDenton]

$32 is a steal. In 1990, computer games with far fewer features routinely cost $60, which would be $102 today, adjusting for inflation.

A steal for what? The game doesn't exist. In 1990 that $60 (it was $50 actually) instantly gave you a final copy of the game, along with its box, hardcopy manual and other feelies.

On Kickstarter we are pledging for something that doesn't exist. We don't know whether the game will be good, or that it will even be released. There is a fundamental risk here that's not found on a real game purchase. Kickstarter backers are not buyers; they are funders (or "investors", even though I don't like referring to myself as such). And if this greedy developer wants me to pledge more than it costs to get a newly released actual game (release price for Secret Files 3 is $29.99, for example), then fuck no I'm not gonna pledge.

Yes, $32 is too much for just a single digital copy of this currently non-existant game. I can just wait until it's actually released, and if it's good enough I'll pay the inevitable sale price of $30 or $40 at that point in time.

Kickstarter digital copies should be included in $10-20 pledges for decent games, and less than that for shit iOS games. If you want more for your non-existant game, then you're nothing but a greedy fuck.

 

[Blaine]

In 1990 that $60 (it was $50 actually)

Not for Sierra On-Line adventure games, it wasn't, not in the early 1990s. Those are the only price lists I can summon up from actual memory. I'm sure there are others.

In any case, you're entitled to your opinion, and trying to argue you out of it is silly. There are more people than just David Braben working on this project, though, and Kickstarter's cut, physical tchotchkes and other expenses will leave the average team member with a comfortable middle-class salary if they meet their goal. Imagine Braben Scrooge McDucking through the profits if you like; I'd rather it go to him than a bunch of parasitic middlemen and suits.

 

[tuluse]

In the digital age, what's the difference between selling 50k backers at $15 a piece or 25k backers at $30? Answer: 25k less people get to play your game.

I'm offended by the high cost to get the game because it's stupid.

And as LordDenton said, there is a lot of risk in ordering a game before it is even in production.

 

[Blaine]

Today I learned that the bookkeeping for 25,000 orders and the bandwidth for dozens of terabytes of transfers is completely free.

I see your point, though. I'll concede that they might be able to raise more funds overall with an adjusted price point, but the price itself I have no issue with. If you can afford an Internet connection, a modern gaming computer, a monitor and peripherals, and the electricity to keep it all running, you're in the top 1% of wealthy people in the world, and whining about a slightly overpriced (in your opinion) luxury demonstrates to me how little perspective you have on the grand scheme of things. I don't feel sorry for people who can't quite afford $32 to spend on a luxury.

As for it being risky, again, I don't view these crowdfunding campaigns as strictly pre-orders. I view them as supporting a project you want to see to completion. There are risks involved in most of life; t's up to you to judge whether they're worth taking. For me, risking $32 (actually more, and a $100 bet, check the first page of this thread) is worthwhile for an Elite sequel, even if Braben gets hit by a bus and their computers and backups all explode.

 

[Blaine]

Unless the pledges pick up speed and/or the last-minute rush saves the day, Elite: Dangerous is on track to be £90,000 ($145,000) short of its goal.

Come on Braben, you fucking nerd! I have a $100 bet riding on this shit.

 

[Tzaero]

Its starting to look better.

 

[Blaine]

Yes, I'm personally quite impressed by that video.

 

[Runciter]

What's so impressive about it?

So far Braben is doing a poor job of conveying what this game is meant to be about, exactly. I'm still waiting for him to convince me to pledge anything.

 

[Blaine]

The game is meant to be about trading, exploring, fighting, currying/losing favor with various factions, upgrading and customizing your space ship and its armaments, and ancillary activities.

I find the video impressive mainly because the flight model seems well done, the little details (engine trails, weapons fire and so on) are well done, the action is fluid, and the speed with which the fighters maneuver hints at challenging combat.

 

[potatojohn]

They're playing with gamepads.

 

[Blaine]

They're playing with gamepads.

Yes, they are. Gamepads are the best of all worlds when working with an extremely early alpha version of a 6DoF game. Also note that the desk in their workspace is crammed with three monitors, and three CPUs beneath. HOTAS setups must be ergonomically placed, and even using a mouse and keyboard in those close quarters would be difficult. This is where they're doing actual work developing the game.

Don't be a fucking sheep and interpret a console controller as something more than it is: It's just a tool. It doesn't contain a "decline virus" that will infect the game through the USB ports. I've been playing space sims and using HOTAS every year for the past twenty-two years, I hate consolitis, yet you don't see me whining about them using gamepads, do you?

Smarten the fuck up.

 

[Runciter]

The game is meant to be about trading, exploring, fighting, currying/losing favor with various factions, upgrading and customizing your space ship and its armaments, and ancillary activities.

Yeah, it says as much on the Kickstarter project site. The problem is, that you can get any kind of game fit that description: Vendetta Online, Eve, Star Citizen, as well as FFE all fit it well. It's the details that matter, and although Braben has given us a clue here and there, so far there has been no methodical overview of how exactly ED is going to implement these details.

It's details like how scientifically accurate the game will be, whether there will be landing on planets, how will the economy work, how will missions work, how exactly the galaxy will be evolving due to player involvement, how exactly will the MMO universe work with players being able to decide the degree of interaction with other players, will we see cockpits or ships' interiors, will we be able to use HOTAS/head tracking... those sorts of things.

I find the video impressive mainly because the flight model seems well done, the little details (engine trails, weapons fire and so on) are well done, the action is fluid, and the speed with which the fighters maneuver hints at challenging combat.

You're easily impressed, it seems to me. If you give me an engine like Ogre, Irrlicht or whatever and some 3D models and some textures, I will be able to slap a demo like this together in a weekend. I mean, it's nice that they have a demo, but there's nothing truly distinct about it and I don't really see the inertia in there like in I-War, for example; you don't see ships flying sideways, which is a pretty strong indicator that it's not there.

 

[Blaine]

I agree that there's been a lack of detail given, and too few updates. Braben does go into some detail during a few of his videos however, such as the one in which he describes a planet building a space station, officials needing transport to commencement ceremonies (and possible assassination attempts), that same planet perhaps experiencing a famine at a later date—creating opportunities for profiteering, and so on. Still, more detail would be better.

I mean, it's nice that they have a demo, but there's nothing truly distinct about it and I don't really see the inertia in there like in I-War, for example; you don't see ships flying sideways, which is a pretty strong indicator that it's not there.

They've stated in no uncertain terms that the game will feature quasi-Newtonian physics and inertia. Possible explanations for its perceived absence are that they may not have it properly coded yet, perhaps they didn't utilize it for the demonstration, et cetera. Also, I-War featured "star trails" that made inertial flight much more obvious, if I recall correctly.

 

[Morkar Left]

Yeah, it says as much on the Kickstarter project site. The problem is, that you can get any kind of game fit that description: Vendetta Online, Eve, Star Citizen, as well as FFE all fit it well. It's the details that matter, and although Braben has given us a clue here and there, so far there has been no methodical overview of how exactly ED is going to implement these details.

It's details like how scientifically accurate the game will be, whether there will be landing on planets, how will the economy work, how will missions work, how exactly the galaxy will be evolving due to player involvement, how exactly will the MMO universe work with players being able to decide the degree of interaction with other players, will we see cockpits or ships' interiors, will we be able to use HOTAS/head tracking... those sorts of things.

Well, you could start with reading the entire kickstarter site including updates and the videos (including interviews) to understand how the game is supposed to be and you would get all your questions answered.

I was highly sceptical but all his updates and videos did actually a good job in showing what's going on. And no, it will not be a third Frontier.

 

[Mortmal]

Hope its not too far from frontier although. Anyway it seems it wont reach its goal its barely past 50% right now, and by now i am sure everyone interested is informed about it. The price is nothing to me, i agree with blaine we paid much more for similar games before, not to mention the outrageous hardware price, but in this case we have no guarantee of anything, i am still not really sure what i pledged for That video of 30 ships fighting is nice and pretty , but in a huge procedurally generated universe,whats the point ? Will we meet some other players at all ?
Elite always been a huge solo game, mixing it with multiplayer seems questionable, no surprise even the old vets are reluctant to pledge.Theres a big difference in exploring space at your pace , when you want , where you want, and dealing with griefing, hacking, punk kids, and all the pleasant things player "interactions" brought. In this day and age multiplayer, for me at least, isnt a good thing , it was ok when pc gaming was a hobby of enthusiasts , an elite few .You wont be pleased when your hard earned transporter will be shot by invisible russian hackers, it will happen trust me .

 

[Runciter]

To be fair, the FAQ now says that there will be a single player offline mode (though possibly limited). There will also be a single-player option in the MMO universe, where the only impact other players will have on you will be through the economy and possibly events such as wars between factions or planetary crises.

 

[Blaine]

There's a very real chance the project will fail to meet its goal at this point. It's currently on track to come up £131,000 short, unless there's a last-minute rush... which may not be enough, especially if people don't think it will succeed to begin with.

I suppose the combination of taking place alongside Star Citizen's campaign, a lack of updates and details, and even using British pounds sterling as the default currency (it's conjectured that this can reduce pledges) have all contributed to a lackluster campaign.

 

[Tzaero]

Summary:
Landing on planets.
Intend to replicate first the core Elite gameplay, and in future updates and expansions will introduce new content and features.
Out of ship gameplay possibly in future.

 

[Runciter]

Summary:
Landing on planets.
(...)

I don't know what else you were doing while watching that video, because Braben explicitly says there will not be planetary landings. In fact, the whole video is about features that will not be in the game. Sure, he said they "intend" to add them afterwards, but bear in mind that that afterwards is not what you're donating for on Kickstarter right now. In other words, they will spend your money not on game features for you, but on the foundations they will capitalise on later when releasing updates, for which you will have to pay too.

I'm sorry to see this guy shoot himself in the foot, but he seems completely inept at running a crowdfunding campaign. The way he has to thank everyone at every post and in every video is becoming tedious. When speaking, he acts most of the time as if the game were already funded. He speaks in broad generalities about what he and his designers have in plans for the future, but he doesn't reveal the details. When speaking about details he only gives a few examples but does not describe the mechanics of the game in a systematic way. In the demo videos he doesn't say if it's final gameplay or not and what is still going to change (e.g. he doesn't comment on the flight model). He escapes taking responsibility for his project by leaving too many things "to be decided". And now he says you won't get a flag feature of Frontier games, planetary landings, until in the future when you'll need to pay more for it.

So far he said that they have some working code and that publishers don't like this type of game, but he never said anything about the decade-long history of Elite 4, when he was making announcements about that game's features and release. Why didn't that pan out? We don't know, exactly. Why does he need our money instead of funding the game himself? We don't know that, either.

What he needs is more transparency, less indecision and a solid kick in the arse.